U16 Vengance coming to Alpha?

[Denis Lemiuex]

AAA coaching albeit better than Dad coaches have the same flaw, The coaches are in it to win it. I went to a 8th grade football game a friend's son was playing. The team had 20 players. His kid played 3 snaps (1 series). I so wanted to yell from the stands that no one cares about your 8th grade coaching record. Play the dam kids. You think the Pens Elite would be happy with a sub .500 U12 team or their parents even though their kids vastly improved and got more out the season buy going up and down the bench?

Another pet peeve. Every clinic I go to all the coaches want are drills. Doesn't matter if they help teaching the system they are running or not. before one of my practices in a few years ago I saw two forwards switch lanes in the O zone (C swings to the W and W to the middle of the ice). Then 20 minutes later he was running break outs and the three Fwds stayed in the ir lanes for the breakout. Drill probably looked good in the book but didn't simulate anything he was doing in games. Most of my drills I made up by breaking down what I wanted to practice. But to be fair. It took about 6 or 7 years to learn that. But nothing from USA Hockey ever said to do that,.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Denis Lemiuex

[Denis Lemiuex]

17 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

 then again, I am getting old and grumpy and the older I get the better I was......

After agreeing with everything you said and seeing that last sentence. I am thinking of changing my screen name to GrumpyOldPucker2 but when I write something stupid people will blame you and you might lose your credibility. 

[GrumpyOldPucker]

Talk about thread drift......

Since you brought up ADM, Do any of you remember when the USAH ADM guru/director/whatever his title was came to town to demonstrate the ADM stations type practice when they were originally shoving it up our collective ass? I discussed the ADM program with him for a bit said that I did/do agree that ADM has it's benefits and added that I was running practices that way when i could since the 80's. Two big issues that I saw with the ADM program at that point were there was no formal plan in place to transition players from cross ice to full ice when their skill ability warranted it, and everything emphasized the stations and cross ice to "maximize puck touches" and "minimize inactivity".  I specifically asked how they expected players to learn how to play the 200 foot game if they never practiced 200 feet and sometimes they have got to observe their teammates skating 200 feet to maybe learn how to do it, where everyone was supposed to go and why.  He suggested several x-ice drills that I already used and a couple others that I though were sliding fusterclucks, but didn't answer my question.... basically hinted that the elite players would eventually figure it out and rest could just go play house league.

I pushed and got more specific in that as more teams ran ADM all skills stations practices (with limited to no full ice) I was seeing a lot of players that have no clue what to do (or how much hustle is needed) between the blue lines. I tried to teach the Russian weave (am I dating myself?) and the players would invariably just skate straight up the ice instead of following their passes. exploiting the seams, and skating to open ice. Mentioned that the players used to half ice practices had no full ice end to end speed, no explosiveness out of the D zone because ever breakout drill stopped at the red line, and again no clue what to do with the puck from the top of the D zone circle to the top of the O zone circle except skate straight ahead with it. If they didn't have the puck they usually would usually coast through the neutral zone or pace the puck carrier waiting for a lateral tape to tape pass instead of carrying the speed through the zone and passing forward to the open areas. Never did get much of an answer, but we did have a lively discussion.

I have not watched ADM or Squirts in a couple years. The trend that I remember once x-ice ADM became gospel was that we now had kids that could stick handle in a phone standing still in a crowd or maybe along the boards but the same kids that would take the puck coast to coast when it was full ice still went end to end.... You still had players with playmaker mindsets that recognized who they should get the puck to and defensive mindsets who would be natural stay at home Defensemen . So what was the net gain here? Has it changed any in the last few years?

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by GrumpyOldPucker

[PeterThePuck]

Vengeance just posted their U16 and U18 try outs.

Look out Icemen, Lebo and Predators.

Not enough 05 Good Goalies to go around.

[HereWithPopcorn]

5 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Talk about thread drift......

Since you brought up ADM, Do any of you remember when the USAH ADM guru/director/whatever his title was came to town to demonstrate the ADM stations type practice when they were originally shoving it up our collective ass? I discussed the ADM program with him for a bit said that I did/do agree that ADM has it's benefits and added that I was running practices that way when i could since the 80's. Two big issues that I saw with the ADM program at that point were there was no formal plan in place to transition players from cross ice to full ice when their skill ability warranted it, and everything emphasized the stations and cross ice to "maximize puck touches" and "minimize inactivity".  I specifically asked how they expected players to learn how to play the 200 foot game if they never practiced 200 feet and sometimes they have got to observe their teammates skating 200 feet to maybe learn how to do it, where everyone was supposed to go and why.  He suggested several x-ice drills that I already used and a couple others that I though were sliding fusterclucks, but didn't answer my question.... basically hinted that the elite players would eventually figure it out and rest could just go play house league.

I pushed and got more specific in that as more teams ran ADM all skills stations practices (with limited to no full ice) I was seeing a lot of players that have no clue what to do (or how much hustle is needed) between the blue lines. I tried to teach the Russian weave (am I dating myself?) and the players would invariably just skate straight up the ice instead of following their passes. exploiting the seams, and skating to open ice. Mentioned that the players used to half ice practices had no full ice end to end speed, no explosiveness out of the D zone because ever breakout drill stopped at the red line, and again no clue what to do with the puck from the top of the D zone circle to the top of the O zone circle except skate straight ahead with it. If they didn't have the puck they usually would usually coast through the neutral zone or pace the puck carrier waiting for a lateral tape to tape pass instead of carrying the speed through the zone and passing forward to the open areas. Never did get much of an answer, but we did have a lively discussion.

I have not watched ADM or Squirts in a couple years. The trend that I remember once x-ice ADM became gospel was that we now had kids that could stick handle in a phone standing still in a crowd or maybe along the boards but the same kids that would take the puck coast to coast when it was full ice still went end to end.... You still had players with playmaker mindsets that recognized who they should get the puck to and defensive mindsets who would be natural stay at home Defensemen . So what was the net gain here? Has it changed any in the last few years?

 

One other factor lost in ADM is goaltending.  At 8U, they stress the importance of sharing the position and not having a dedicated goalie so all kids can learn and grow.  However, there is no transition plan for the reality that when they move up to 10U that you don't just rotate goalies.  So while there are still strong goalies at all of the birth years since 2003 when ADM really started, the pool is much more shallow than it should be.

[Lifelongbender]

5 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Mentioned that the players used to half ice practices had no full ice end to end speed, no explosiveness out of the D zone because ever breakout drill stopped at the red line, and again no clue what to do with the puck from the top of the D zone circle to the top of the O zone circle except skate straight ahead with it. If they didn't have the puck they usually would usually coast through the neutral zone or pace the puck carrier waiting for a lateral tape to tape pass instead of carrying the speed through the zone and passing forward to the open areas. 

I have not watched ADM or Squirts in a couple years. The trend that I remember once x-ice ADM became gospel was that we now had kids that could stick handle in a phone standing still in a crowd or maybe along the boards but the same kids that would take the puck coast to coast when it was full ice still went end to end.... You still had players with playmaker mindsets that recognized who they should get the puck to and defensive mindsets who would be natural stay at home Defensemen . So what was the net gain here? Has it changed any in the last few years?

 

This is still more or less prevalent in players, in my experience. While there is much to like about the ADM in terms of skills development, the things you need full ice to practice suffer under it. Like @GrumpyOldPucker, I've noticed that breakouts especially have suffered, not just in terms of creativity as discussed above but also in terms of simple execution. It's a consequence of not being able to really get rolling out of the zone because your ice ends at the red line. Especially for the kids playing for the teams without those extra As - for many of those teams you get breakouts only in the form of one player carrying the puck and the other forwards following along. Nobody to pass to and nobody crashing the net for rebounds.

Of course, most organizations wouldn't have enough ice to give full ice to their teams very often even under the old model.

[forbin]

There are some local organizations that do a good job of preparing their 8 or soon to be 9 year old's for full ice by using the last few weeks of practice to introduce full ice concepts, D zone breakouts, offsides, icing etc. There's also a handful of mite to squirt transition camps during the summer. RMU runs a great camp for that. That being said, it's not nearly enough experience to prepare them. A ton of first year squirt games (especially at the A minor and B level) are all 10 skaters bunching up by the puck and countless offside calls.

As @HereWithPopcorn mentioned, the goalie pool gets shallower every year, and I agree that it has a ton to do with not allowing "full time" goalies at the 8U level. There are some kids that are just born to be goalies. Let them play the position. 

[PUCKCOVID19]

3 hours ago, PeterThePuck said:

Vengeance just posted their U16 and U18 try outs.

Look out Icemen, Lebo and Predators.

Not enough 05 Good Goalies to go around.

so how many faux Aaa teams does that make now these days?  Cant keep up...... lol 

 

 

[HSFBLJ]

The next big question---Who is the coach?

[PUCKCOVID19]

7 hours ago, HSFBLJ said:

The next big question---Who is the coach?

just heard it will more then likely be the Shaler JV head coach.... time will tell until posted... but thats the gist I got.... team will mostly be current preds team moving over to there 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by PUCKCOVID19

[GrumpyOldPucker]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:53 AM, forbin said:

There are some local organizations that do a good job of preparing their 8 or soon to be 9 year old's for full ice by using the last few weeks of practice to introduce full ice concepts, D zone breakouts, offsides, icing etc. There's also a handful of mite to squirt transition camps during the summer. RMU runs a great camp for that. That being said, it's not nearly enough experience to prepare them. A ton of first year squirt games (especially at the A minor and B level) are all 10 skaters bunching up by the puck and countless offside calls.

As @HereWithPopcorn mentioned, the goalie pool gets shallower every year, and I agree that it has a ton to do with not allowing "full time" goalies at the 8U level. There are some kids that are just born to be goalies. Let them play the position. 

I said it when ADM was thrust upon us.... "Squirt is gonna be the new mite. We will be teaching them things as 9-10 yr olds." I can remember seeing mite AA teams doing perfect breakouts and neutral zone regroups with D to D passes!

[Danner27]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:42 AM, PeterThePuck said:

Vengeance just posted their U16 and U18 try outs.

Look out Icemen, Lebo and Predators.

Not enough 05 Good Goalies to go around.

I’ve heard the 05 predators are moving from ice castle to alpha, if true, that would be next years 16u team. I would be really surprised if they manage to get an 18u team together, the vengeance would have to bring in a reputable coach. The Icemen & predators already have the faux AAA titles on lockdown. 

[PUCKCOVID19]

7 hours ago, Danner27 said:

I’ve heard the 05 predators are moving from ice castle to alpha, if true, that would be next years 16u team. I would be really surprised if they manage to get an 18u team together, the vengeance would have to bring in a reputable coach. The Icemen & predators already have the faux AAA titles on lockdown. 

if that's the case and it is the preds moving to alpha , then don't they automatically take the faux aaa name with them?

[Danner27]

3 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

if that's the case and it is the preds moving to alpha , then don't they automatically take the faux aaa name with them?

No, in the end, there will be 18 more kids lined up to fill that predators team.  Western pa will end up with 3 faux 18u / 16u teams, sitting at the bottom of the district. Four if Mt Lebanon continues, though I heard they may be going back to tier 2. If true, that’s more than likely why the vengeance just came out with these teams, looking for the strays that will still pay the money. 

[dazedandconfused]

Danner, just remember that your "Faux backstory" leaves you with very little credibility on here and the fact you say your kids have both moved on, your "insider knowledge" on things indicates your backstory is even more flawed than originally thought or you need a hobby.

 

[Danner27]

2 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

Danner, just remember that your "Faux backstory" leaves you with very little credibility on here and the fact you say your kids have both moved on, your "insider knowledge" on things indicates your backstory is even more flawed than originally thought or you need a hobby.

 

As stated before, I honestly don’t care about your hard on for me. 
 

faux AAA is faux AAA.
 

My youngest is a 2002, you should know this since you like to stalk me. 2003’s play with 2002’s. His school team Last year had some good 2004’s and 2005’s. Sorry we have friends, it appears to bother you. 
 

we will find out how true it is in a month or so. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Danner27

[aaaahockey]

Did anyone catch the mite jamboree at north pittsburgh this morning?  Those kids are bound for the nhl - ive literally never seen players that good.  They might give the pens elite mites a run for their money. 

[dazedandconfused]

5 hours ago, Danner27 said:

faux AAA is faux AAA.

And faux USHL draftees are Faux as well. It's not stalking so much as a PSA to folks on here about your penchant for.... well..... distorting reality.

[Saucey]

6 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

And faux USHL draftees are Faux as well. It's not stalking so much as a PSA to folks on here about your penchant for.... well..... distorting reality.

You say that as if the distotion of reality is somehow unique to this poster rather than many people who post on this board.... why focus so hard on this one poster?

[Danner27]

4 hours ago, Saucey said:

You say that as if the distotion of reality is somehow unique to this poster rather than many people who post on this board.... why focus so hard on this one poster?

One of those guys that always has to be right ? jealousy ? His kid can’t make ppe or esmark ? I’ve called out the faux aaa teams at times, I assume that’s his hard on for me. It’s the internet, who really knows or cares. 

[hipcheck66]

On 3/21/2021 at 12:23 AM, Danner27 said:

I’ve heard the 05 predators are moving from ice castle to alpha, if true, that would be next years 16u team. I would be really surprised if they manage to get an 18u team together, the vengeance would have to bring in a reputable coach. The Icemen & predators already have the faux AAA titles on lockdown. 

From what I’ve heard, a number of the better 05 Preds have already played in a tournament with Esmark. Seems unlikely Vengeance gets all the Pred players, and probably not the best ones.