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Tryouts hours after playoffs...


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Having tryouts in spring makes sense when you have a good coaching staff that will try to get some summer ice slots or dry land training going, as well as a couple of team building activities. Those teams usually end up being more cohesive when the season really gets going. Same goes for AAA teams that offer summer training programs.
 

The argument can be made that tryouts should be closer to the start of the season because the player can have the opportunity to grow a couple of inches and get faster/stronger over the summer. Might help them be placed more accurately in August.

In my personal playing and coaching experience one of two things happens with spring tryouts: Little Johnny knows he made the team in April so he will either bust his ass working hard over the summer to be a top player OR he will sit around and play Xbox and not worry about it because he knows he’s already made the team. 

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The grumpy one says with tongue firmly in cheek:

But, But, But........

How else can you do all summer team building stuff like off ice conditioning, and Dek, and 3 on3 and, chalk talk .... and... and.... and... Oh, BTW - we aren't saying not to go on that trip to Disney with your extended family and the kids 75 year old grandparents that they haven't seen in 10 years, but you will be missing the team pool party\cookout\parental drunk fest..... We all know how you have to fit in with the parental soap opera. People will talk about you if you aren't there.

 

If the GrumpyOldPucker were king he would declare:

- All tryouts are closed to parents

- All of USA Hockey Tier 1 NATIONAL BOUND teams (boys and girls) have the first 3 weeks of May to run their tryouts. Roster spots may be offered up to the Wednesday before Memorial day weekend. The Friday of Memorial day weekend is the NATIONALLY MANDATED Tier 1 National Bound deadline to accept an offered roster spot, players may accept earlier but no organization can require acceptance sooner. If roster is not filled, No additional spots ma be offered until the July Tier 2 tryout period. All non - district players are REQUIRED to physically attend an open tryout in MAY. note, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS TRYOUT PERIOD THE TEAM IS DECLARING FOR NATIONALS. FOR TEAMS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE MAY TRYOUT PERIOD, ANY NATIONALS FEES REQUIRED MUST BE PAID AND ARE NON-REFUNDABLE. TEAMS THAT OPT FOR THE JULY TRYOUT PERIOD CAN WAIT UNTIL THE DECEMBER 31 DEADLINE TO DECLARE.

- July 5 thru last Wednesday in July: Tier 2 national bound teams (boys and girls), and any NON National Bound Tier 1 teams try out period. National bound Tier 1 teams can offer additional roster spots during this time period. The last Friday in July  is the NATIONALLY MANDATED Tier 2 National bound and Non National bound Tier 1 deadline to accept an offered roster spot, players may accept earlier but no organization can require acceptance sooner.

- COMMITMENT FEES ARE WAIVED FOR ANY PLAYER JUMPING FROM a Tier 2 National bound team to Tier 1 team National bound team. All tryouts are closed to parent but Tier 2 organizations MUST allow Tier 1 team representatives to observe tryout with the express purpose of allowing them to review players for any open roster spots.

- August 1 thru August 21 ALL Tier 2 NON National bound teams permitted to tryout. The usual commitment fees and politics apply to this group.... Parents are encouraged to pick an organization they like and just let the kid play on whatever team they are assigned to.

 Dates are designed to give the T1\T2 bubble players a reason to work and improve over the summer for Tier 2 tryouts and maybe give them the opportunity to get a second look from a Tier 1 team.

 

To be a little more serious, I thought tryouts were not permitted to happen until 24 hours after nationals are done? I've seen too may players give less that half-assed attention to the summer off ice\conditioning\team building stuff..... Even at the Tier 1 level.

Edited by GrumpyOldPucker
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8 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

If the GrumpyOldPucker were king he would declare:

- All tryouts are closed to parents

Most of that stuff was about National Bound Teams tryouts and they way they interact with non-National Bound teams tryouts (i.e., the "higher" teams), but this is speaking gospel. Banning parents from tryouts is best for the players and the evaluators. Without a question, hard stop.

Parents shoudn't be permitted to observe tryouts at any organization at any level.

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I've been an evaluator at a number of tryouts over the years.  Believe me, it sucks when they are open to parents and you are getting calls from parents that you are friendly with because they "thought that Billy or Sally was better than Bobby or Kelley at tryouts, so why is he/she on the lower team".  The best way I've seen tryouts run is when they there are evaluators present, but that the head coach has a say in the makeup of the final roster, not 100% based off of scores from 2-3 hours of drills and scrimmages.  

The reason tryouts are so early is because all the teams are competing for the same group of players.  For example, in the South Hills area you have Mt. Lebanon, Predators, and SHAHA all within 15-25 minutes of each other.  So once your "AAA" tryouts are over those teams are scrambling for any players that didn't make PPE, or Vengeance.  It becomes a race for the players in each of the areas of western PA.  

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2 hours ago, Corsi said:

I've been an evaluator at a number of tryouts over the years.  Believe me, it sucks when they are open to parents. 

Can't agree more. Can't find refs or coaches because of parents. Plus I think many kids do better knowing their parents can't see them. I never watch my kids try out.

 

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Bender, that's just my opinion on where I would start to reform the tryout process.... take it for whatever you value it as. I think that you need to set a definite hierarchy of expected skill level with the top getting first crack at the talent.... The only thing I would change\add would be that I would have a lottery for tryout week so that teams couldn't intentionally schedule to conflict with competitors. Do that from top down. There is nothing there that says a team HAS to have open tryouts -they can fill their roster by invitation only..... they just have a specific date that they can actually offer a roster spot. It is what it is.... I no longer have any skin in that game and doubt that mid-am will offer me a spot on the board.

Having lived the hockey life since the 70's I've been involved in more than a few tryouts and performance evals. When I've had the opportunity to review the actual raw numbers from each evaluator, you would be surprised how close the player rankings are between evaluators. Some evaluators seem to use all of their 1-10 range others refuse to rank a 1 or 10 but the players position in each list were pretty close. The middle 25-30% of the bell curve are usually bunched up but the players seemed to float up\down in maybe a 5% window in that middle range. The differences I've seen tend to come from evaluating the scrimmages. The skills rankings were never too different between the evaluators but the game play ranking moved them around depending on what the evaluator favors in players, ie: positioning and hockey sense, playmaking, puck skills and body positioning, anticipation, aggressiveness on the puck, hustle away from the puck, shooting\willingness to take shots, selfishness with the puck (like refusing to make a headman pass or taking a low % shot when you have a team mate wide open for a tap-in.etc).

As for parents.... most of the times that I was an evaluator they didn't close tryouts. When asked\approached by a parent I explained the process and referred them to the board - END of discussion - to me the players were just a number. Those few parents that I was close enough to that I would discuss their kids performace, it was not with respect to any other player.  They got my personal, NO BS, very hard and critical opinion of their kid. They knew the gloves were off and they didn't usually do this more than once 'cuz I didn't feed their ego or opinion that "Johnny should be on 'X' team". I made it a point to burst their bubble and gave them a very clear review of their kids flaws from an evaluator\coaches point of view. Some were put off and some thanked me for the no BS list of things to work on.

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3 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Bender, that's just my opinion on where I would start to reform the tryout process....

As for parents.... most of the times that I was an evaluator they didn't close tryouts. When asked\approached by a parent I explained the process and referred them to the board - END of discussion - to me the players were just a number. Those few parents that I was close enough to that I would discuss their kids performace, it was not with respect to any other player.  They got my personal, NO BS, very hard and critical opinion of their kid. They knew the gloves were off and they didn't usually do this more than once 'cuz I didn't feed their ego or opinion that "Johnny should be on 'X' team". I made it a point to burst their bubble and gave them a very clear review of their kids flaws from an evaluator\coaches point of view. Some were put off and some thanked me for the no BS list of things to work on.

@GrumpyOldPucker, I get it. To be honest I'm not that concerned about the upper level teams because my kids are lifelong JV and A players. Beer league or bust! (just like all the "AAA" players, I suppose.) When I said you were speaking gospel I was referring specifically to having tryouts be closed to spectators. Although I have to say that I thought alot of that post was pretty smart.

I can tell you that I have evaluated in both closed and open tryouts and it is absolutely my opinion that kids play better when their parents aren't watching, and when a kid blows a tire once on the ice you don't worry about him or her getting screamed at all the way home afterwards. The toxicity of having (some) parents involved isn't limited only to the evaluators and the coaches (and, in game contexts, officials). It's my heartfelt belief that every player thinks they play better with an audience, but almost every player ACTUALLY plays better without one.

In the past when I have been approached by a parent after a tryout to talk about a kid's ratings I have simply refused to discuss it. I follow that rule for parents who are good friends and parents I don't know at all. It's just simpler. And like you said, I try my damndest to make my evaluations neutral - like you said, the kids are just a number - even though, like most people who watch closely, I can identify most of the players by their skating alone.

To be honest, parents seem happier once they accept that evaluations are closed, too. They hang out in the parking lot and just relax with other parents rather than get tense watching their player on the ice.

As a related aside, it has long been my opinion that organizations should try as hard as they can to find evaluators who don't know the players at all. I used to send a little white paper to my local organization every year proposing calling up the Head Coach at Cal U or Pitt and offering to send a bus for their kids and pay their players in pizza and a small amount of money to come out and evaluate. The resulting evaluations would be truly anonymous and also done by actual hockey people. (There are a number of potential objections to this idea, but the only one that really matters is that no organization will ever do that because it takes the influence out of the coaches' hands.) I've even mused at times that there might be money to be made in starting a company that runs tryouts and reviews players for organizations, except see the objection above. Nobody would ever hire that company, so it could never make money.

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56 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

@GrumpyOldPucker, I get it. To be honest I'm not that concerned about the upper level teams because my kids are lifelong JV and A players. Beer league or bust! (just like all the "AAA" players, I suppose.) When I said you were speaking gospel I was referring specifically to having tryouts be closed to spectators. Although I have to say that I thought alot of that post was pretty smart.

I can tell you that I have evaluated in both closed and open tryouts and it is absolutely my opinion that kids play better when their parents aren't watching, and when a kid blows a tire once on the ice you don't worry about him or her getting screamed at all the way home afterwards. The toxicity of having (some) parents involved isn't limited only to the evaluators and the coaches (and, in game contexts, officials). It's my heartfelt belief that every player thinks they play better with an audience, but almost every player ACTUALLY plays better without one.

In the past when I have been approached by a parent after a tryout to talk about a kid's ratings I have simply refused to discuss it. I follow that rule for parents who are good friends and parents I don't know at all. It's just simpler. And like you said, I try my damndest to make my evaluations neutral - like you said, the kids are just a number - even though, like most people who watch closely, I can identify most of the players by their skating alone.

To be honest, parents seem happier once they accept that evaluations are closed, too. They hang out in the parking lot and just relax with other parents rather than get tense watching their player on the ice.

As a related aside, it has long been my opinion that organizations should try as hard as they can to find evaluators who don't know the players at all. I used to send a little white paper to my local organization every year proposing calling up the Head Coach at Cal U or Pitt and offering to send a bus for their kids and pay their players in pizza and a small amount of money to come out and evaluate. The resulting evaluations would be truly anonymous and also done by actual hockey people. (There are a number of potential objections to this idea, but the only one that really matters is that no organization will ever do that because it takes the influence out of the coaches' hands.) I've even mused at times that there might be money to be made in starting a company that runs tryouts and reviews players for organizations, except see the objection above. Nobody would ever hire that company, so it could never make money.

I think it would be a good idea to pair external evaluations with the coaches making the final call especially with teams who have been together for years.  Tryouts are only one piece of picking a good team.  

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Like I've said before. I've had kids pass up opportunities for summer teams or tournaments because they had obligations with a team they'd been on for years. "Well I can't play that event for your team,  because if I miss this tournament/summer league/etc. with my other team, I'll never get back on it. I'm only on it now because I got on x-amount of years ago, and if I really have to legit  try out again, I'm not really good enough to get back on. So if I wanna stay on that team, I have to play every event with them."

 

So what's that say about how fair tryouts are? Not all of them, of course. But most coaches or "evaluators" will go with the known quantity or a liked personality or not wanting to hurt someone's feelings that they have known for a time over the new kid that beat the wheels off some of the other kids for 3 days of tryouts. Not with every team of course, but we all know how life works. Let's not be foolish. 

Of course, if a kid looks like Crosby out there compared to everyone else on the ice, yeah someone might get bumped from the team. But if they're just better, not heads-and-shoulders better, they aren't going to bump the incumbent. 

I can't help but think this plays a huge factor in having closed tryouts. 

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Many organizations do give coaches input in the team make up - I've been there a few times. I personally don't give a flying fuck how long a team has been together.... ANYONE can be replaced at any time..... AND Just maybe some of the "entitled core kids" and their parents need to experience that to stay hungry and keep working to fulfil their potential. I've seen many times where the kids that are deemed to be the core of the team may have the individual talent and potential, but all too often are arrogant, lack discipline, have a poor work ethic in practice that affects the whole teams development, and exhibit a disturbing lack of teamwork during games except when they are paired with certain equally entitled buddies. 

Here's the thing.... If a team is "guaranteeing" certain players a roster spot then they should be up front about it, just give them the spot and tell the rest of the unwashed masses that they are trying out for three. or four, or one roster spot... yeah, that will bring in all of that free tryout fee money..... gotta have the farce of a full fair and open tryout!! Most of the kids that are on the outside looking in, are serious about trying to make those teams, and actually have a chance to make the team have already done the math. They know who the "chosen few" are as they've been going head to head with them most of their hockey life, and they know how badly the odds are stacked against them. All they ask for is to get a serious, unbiased chance vs the chosen..... They are the ones that are working to improve and are hungry, the "core players" maybe not so much.

Also, what I wrote above ONLY applies to Tier 1&2 National bound teams. To use PAHL language, if you are not the AA team then you should get the next 18 in line and two goalies and spend 75% of your practices improving your individual skills.


 

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Good articles from 200x85.com

https://200x85.com/what-every-parent-player-should-know-about-tryouts/

WHAT EVERY PARENT/PLAYER SHOULD KNOW ABOUT TRYOUTS

With Team Tryouts fast approaching we hope all clubs will run a thorough and fair selection process. This can be a time of happiness or complete disappointment for families. There is stress, pressure and even politics with some unsavory clubs. Will mistakes be made? Only time will tell – but if a process is in place then the mistakes should be minimized. Of course, there are players & parents who may not be happy with some of the choices but that goes with the territory. Believe it or not, there are a lot of coaches who also dread this time of year, knowing they will break a young persons heart and that from time to time they will get it wrong.
The write up below was mostly from John Verdon, President of the Oakville Rangers in 2016. I believe most of these points are all relative today and I have tweaked parts of the write up and updated age levels and wording where relative to USAH and Hockey Canada.  The majority of the tryout process is completed before on-ice tryouts begin. This shouldn’t be some dirty secret. It is not a negative. It makes sense. If you are a coach and you are going to rely solely on a few 1 hour sessions to decide who is on your team, then you are a poor coach. Most coaches will/should have a number of ‘for sure’ kids in mind and 3 or 4 kids in mind for each remaining spot before on-ice tryouts begin. How? Because…

  1. Tryouts officially started the day each coach was announced. Next year’s coaches should now be out watching games all over the place; they should be taking and placing phone calls; they should be responding to and sending emails; they should be talking with current and incoming coaches to establish depth charts, etc. Next year’s coaches should be highly visible around the rinks and ready to talk to parents.
  2.  
  3. AAA tryouts should become “invite only”. This change will not make AAA tryouts highly restricted. It is just meant to prevent 50-100 kids from being on the ice for the 1st couple of tryouts which is ridiculous and a waste of time/money. All players who the AAA coaches believe are candidates for the team should only be accepted or invited. Those players from the AA, A teams who they currently think may become candidates should simply be told they need additional development time.
  4.  
  5. Coaches may not pick who YOU think are the best 17-20 players. That is because coaches have to build TEAMS and that involves a mix of left and right shots; offensive and defensive kids; fast kids and grinders; creative/flashy players and steady/dependable players. They also may have to keep body checking in mind, work ethic, which way a kid is trending and coachability. Finally, AAA/AA teams generally have between 110 and 180 events over the course of an 8-9 month season with team chemistry being an important component for success, so if you don’t think parent behavior/attitude and player behavior/attitude have a role in selections then you are mistaken. Don’t be the reason your kid doesn’t make a team. If you suspect that you may be a crazy hockey parent, please read this and calm down and just enjoy.
  6.  
  7. Coaches/Clubs should develop local talent. Most programs should have stated objectives to transform their clubs into an Elite AAA or AA program with highly competitive, successful teams at every level- every year. I believe the preference should be to accomplish this with local residents whenever possible. Most clubs will not become an Elite AA or AAA program overnight just by saying so and changing the uniforms. Of course not, but they should make the decision to create the environment and programs by which that can happen. The alternative is just stupid. Keep losing your top players every year after having subsidized time and resources into their development. No thanks!
  8.  
  9. Picking teams is not an exact science – coaches will make mistakes. They are not doing it on purpose – they want to win. But maybe they see some potential in a kid vs. a kid who may have plateaued. Maybe they think they can improve the decision making of a kid who can skate and shoot like lightening. Maybe it doesn’t work out. It doesn’t mean the coach is an incompetent idiot who should be publicly or anonymously insulted. He/she was taking a chance to improve the team and it didn’t work out. Oh well, get over it.

So, with all of this in mind, what should you do to maximize your chances of achieving your goals?

  1. If you are a player – work hard in games and practices – do the little things – be a great teammate who is easy to coach. You never know who is watching.
  2.  
  3. If you are a parent, be realistic. If your child is in B or A hockey then the chances of them making AAA or strong AA teams right away are very low. Target the appropriate level and contact the coach via email or if you see him around the rinks. Make sure they know who your child is and why you think your child is a strong candidate for the team. Also, behave yourself – everyone is watching.
  4.  
  5. If your child is coming over from another club, understand that they will usually have to be clearly, noticeably better than incumbents in order to make the team. That is not ‘not fair’ that is just human nature.
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Funny, the article talks about developing local talent but the guy that started 200x85 (and still is the owner ?) was brought in from Chicago to run PPE. He brought his favorite Chicago mission players with him. He’s the one that is responsible for PPE bringing in kids from everywhere and dumping local players along with David Morehouse. Unless this is a completely different 200x85. 

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9 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Funny, the article talks about developing local talent but the guy that started 200x85 (and still is the owner ?) was brought in from Chicago to run PPE. He brought his favorite Chicago mission players with him. He’s the one that is responsible for PPE bringing in kids from everywhere and dumping local players along with David Morehouse. Unless this is a completely different 200x85. 

I would love to know, what in the hell does David Morehouse actually know about hockey? 

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9 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

I would love to know, what in the hell does David Morehouse actually know about hockey? 

Nothing, he’s a career politician. He got the job to secure the pens a new arena. He was Bill Clinton’s campaign manager, this is how he met Ron Burkle who is one of the biggest donators to the Democratic Party. Ron brought him back to his “hometown” to get the arena done. 
 

Give the guy credit, he knows how to make money and that’s what he’s doing for the pens with youth hockey. They are the only team in the nhl with ZERO overhead for their practice facility.  He created the excel program to make even more money for the pens off youth hockey. All the while surrounding his mediocre son with some of the best 2003 (2002 @ U16) players in North America through out the years. 
 

in the end, PPE is still the best program by far for your kid if he has the talent & serious about hockey. I’m glad my kid was out of there before it became a money making machine with the excel extortion program. 

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2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Nothing, he’s a career politician. He got the job to secure the pens a new arena. He was Bill Clinton’s campaign manager, this is how he met Ron Burkle who is one of the biggest donators to the Democratic Party. Ron brought him back to his “hometown” to get the arena done. 
 

Give the guy credit, he knows how to make money and that’s what he’s doing for the pens with youth hockey. They are the only team in the nhl that has ZERO overhead for their practice facility.  He created the excel program to make even more money for the pens off youth hockey. All the while surrounding his mediocre son with some of the best 2003 players in North America through out the years. 
 

in the end, PPE is still the best program by far of your kid if he has the talent & serious about hockey. I’m glad my kid was out of there before it became a money making machine with the excel extortion program. 

Yeah, that was my point. And the excel thing? No way my kid is doing anything at North Catholic. And to commit to that program for your child's alternative schooling- and cost- when PPE hasn't produced ONE nhl player? No thanks. 

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I am not understanding the linear correlation between Pens Elite through Excel and then to North Catholic.

I do not want to flame anyone and am not challenging. I merely do not see why this would stop someone’s kid from doing anything at North Catholic.

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The EXCEL program works directly with NC and PPE. To be in the EXCEL high school program, you have to attend NC. The kids leave school early and go to the rink.

The elementary and middle school programs have no affiliation to NC. 

I don’t think I need to tell you why some people are hesitant to send their kids to NC. A quick google search will tell you what you need to know. 

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