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20 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

PPE and its' associates prioritize profits over everything?

Don't they get the same amount of money in fees from whoever plays on the team?  Seems to me that they want the best possible team. I don't think they would get away with paying kids to come play.  So I would assume the revenue they get is the same irregardless of where the kids are from. Unless I'm missing something here!

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I personally think alot of peoples gripe with PPE bringing in outside talent is that when the program was first introduced its MAIN selling point was to offer an avenue to develop local talent at the highest level possible. We are all coming to find out (or have known for years) that it was crock of sh!t. This program was started to give certain executives children a place to play and has since morphed into a tax shelter for the NHL team. The more national championships they win, the more ad revenue they can bring in, the more money they can line their pockets with. Hell, the freaking OFFICIAL team name is the Dick's Sporting Goods Pittsburgh Penguins Elite.

When the coaches are pulling in six figure salaries you know its no longer about the development of local players. They are being paid to win at all costs. Right, wrong, or indifferent that's the bold truth.

There is absolutely no reason why Pittsburgh can't have another avenue for talented hockey players. 

 

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31 minutes ago, forbin said:

I personally think alot of peoples gripe with PPE bringing in outside talent is that when the program was first introduced its MAIN selling point was to offer an avenue to develop local talent at the highest level possible.

Yes I do think I have seen that on here before.  As usual the goal seems to be win at all costs.  I don't pretend to understand all the financial and back history of it all.  I just know that it's hard to believe that they pay their coaches six figure salaries.  And if that is true no programs around here should be able to compete with them. I guess they really don't. Everyone else is playing for second! But maybe based on what you are saying second best is not so bad.

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I just know that it's hard to believe that they pay their coaches six figure salaries.

 

Brian Mueller was a Vice President of 200x85 and the Coach of the 2003 Chicago Mission. At that time there was no chance for PPE to beat them so........... they bought him and his star player whom just so happened to be the grandson of Rocky Saganiuk. Who is Rocky Saganiuk you ask? A former NHL player who also had a lucrative business in Chicago called Rocky hockey which was a great program and was 8U ADM before USA hockey joined the bandwagon. Rocky now oversees the Little Pens program and does a great job with it.

Now back to the 6 figure coaching salaries. What number do you think it took to uproot these guys from their existing lucrative  jobs and their families? Hint: there's a better chance it was 7 figures than 5 figures.

 

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25 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

 

Brian Mueller was a Vice President of 200x85 and the Coach of the 2003 Chicago Mission. At that time there was no chance for PPE to beat them so........... they bought him and his star player whom just so happened to be the grandson of Rocky Saganiuk. Who is Rocky Saganiuk you ask? A former NHL player who also had a lucrative business in Chicago called Rocky hockey which was a great program and was 8U ADM before USA hockey joined the bandwagon. Rocky now oversees the Little Pens program and does a great job with it.

Now back to the 6 figure coaching salaries. What number do you think it took to uproot these guys from their existing lucrative  jobs and their families? Hint: there's a better chance it was 7 figures than 5 figures.

 

Wow you have done some serious research on all this. I'm impressed! So based on their credentials we should assume that they are making 6 figures coaching at PPE.  That's logical without any first hand knowledge. If all this is as you say and I have no reason to doubt it I do understand why they bring in out of the area talent as they are probably under tremendous pressure to win. I am getting a good education into the history of Youth Hockey in Western Pa. I am a newbe in that respect only really into it since 2012. Maybe I am starting to understand why some of the old timers are so salty toward PPE. 

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On 5/7/2021 at 9:15 AM, HSFBLJ said:

 

I don't care for how the lower age groups are nothing more than a cash grab, leading kids and parents to beliI don't care for how the lower age groups are nothing more than a cash grab, leading kids and parents to believe they have a shot to stay. And also, of course, the whole excel / NC thing. eve they have a shot to stay. And also, of course, the whole excel / NC thing. 

 

Also, I notice the younger kids are great at drills, not so much at passing. 

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14 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

 

Also, I notice the younger kids are great at drills, not so much at passing. 

I don't want to over dramatize this because I haven't seen every team or every kid but from what I have seen at the squirt and peewee levels (changes as they get older) these teams do struggle to play a team game. There is a lot of puck hogging, selfish play, skating down the boards with heads down, over decking, and it works well against medium to high talent and they lose against the elite talent (which is why despite being ranked in the top 10 they feel a need to bring in outside help as the kids age). 

 

That being said the kids are very skilled so it does work sometimes.  A lot of this may be driven by the fact that ever kid feels they need to be the best in order not to be cut next year and kids measure best by how many goals they score not how many times they attempt passes or play defense. 

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I think Western Pa hockey as a whole suffers from low hockey IQ and a terrible passing game. It is very apparent when our better teams play higher levels. Is it our coaching, something not being done right throughout the system? Some have speculated that our kids don't have enough free ice as in other big hockey markets to help develop that  (ODRs, community rinks with lots stick times, etc) I don't know how to fix it. Maybe time spent with buds at the dek hockey rinks in the summer, I don't know.

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9 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I think Western Pa hockey as a whole suffers from low hockey IQ and a terrible passing game. It is very apparent when our better teams play higher levels. Is it our coaching, something not being done right throughout the system? Some have speculated that our kids don't have enough free ice as in other big hockey markets to help develop that  (ODRs, community rinks with lots stick times, etc) I don't know how to fix it. Maybe time spent with buds at the dek hockey rinks in the summer, I don't know.

Wow, you would think that bringing in the top guys from Chicago and paying 6 figures would assure the same type of coaching and development of passing, hockey IQ, etc. Then all that would trickle down to the other AAA and Pahl programs. Not like as if there is a big shortage of guys that have played high level hockey in the area. Maybe we don't spend enough time on Film study and classroom work.

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57 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow, you would think that bringing in the top guys from Chicago and paying 6 figures would assure the same type of coaching and development of passing, hockey IQ, etc. Then all that would trickle down to the other AAA and Pahl programs. Not like as if there is a big shortage of guys that have played high level hockey in the area. Maybe we don't spend enough time on Film study and classroom work.

This is one example of maybe why its different (better?) in other areas: My friend in MN has kids who play high level. His youngest is a squirt minor A  at a large "powerhouse" organization and I guess would be comparable to the level of PPE/Vengeance at that age even though the skill level is much higher. They have three ice slots a week. One is a skills practice and power skating where they incorporate the PEP system. The other two practices are team drills. They run systems, they run passing plays, they go over powerplays and penalty kills.  They breakdown game film and show the kids what they did well and what they can improve on. They teach hockey IQ. There really isn't any reason why the local WPA organizations cant adopt that mentality even at the PAHL level. 

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On 5/11/2021 at 9:46 AM, fafa fohi said:

You must be new here.

There are a lot of people on this forum that firmly believe western PA rivals other hotbed hockey markets, which clearly it doesn't.  Have you looked at a PPE roster lately?  More and more kids are imports from out of state and word is with recent PPE tryouts many local kids from last years teams got cut and are looking at other options.  Vengeance, Lebo, Preds are all comprised of local players yet those teams can't compete with PPE...........I wonder why? 

I am not salty about anything, just stating facts.   

I'm curious about the statement that local kids were cut for out of town kids regarding this year. 15u, 16u and 18u had their tryouts last week. Does anyone have a more definitive (or at least approximate) number on how many new kids from out of state made those midget teams? 

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What does that mean? In reference to what? 

Sorry - the post didn’t quote properly. The question was asked, who’s really making money on hockey - my reply was “plenty”. 

Edited by Danner27
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3 hours ago, forbin said:

This is one example of maybe why its different (better?) in other areas: My friend in MN has kids who play high level. His youngest is a squirt minor A  at a large "powerhouse" organization and I guess would be comparable to the level of PPE/Vengeance at that age even though the skill level is much higher. They have three ice slots a week. One is a skills practice and power skating where they incorporate the PEP system. The other two practices are team drills. They run systems, they run passing plays, they go over powerplays and penalty kills.  They breakdown game film and show the kids what they did well and what they can improve on. They teach hockey IQ. There really isn't any reason why the local WPA organizations cant adopt that mentality even at the PAHL level. 

Minnesota has an entirely different system. School hockey is where it is at, with a focus on community based hockey over travel. I think many organizations would love to offer ice three times a week, but many rinks don't have enough ice for that. But video review, that could happen for certain. 

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34 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Minnesota has an entirely different system. School hockey is where it is at, with a focus on community based hockey over travel. I think many organizations would love to offer ice three times a week, but many rinks don't have enough ice for that. But video review, that could happen for certain. 

Most PAHL teams have at least two practices a week right? And from my experience most of them basically run the same practice format for both nights. Why not make one dedicated to skills and one dedicated to hockey IQ stuff? It would be totally doable. Even if multiple 12u teams are sharing the ice, they could work on full ice game systems together. Then throw in an after practice 30-45 minute video session. Instead they put so much emphasis on individual skills and seem to forget it’s a team sport. Just my .02 and because it’s so dependent on the coaching it’s a complete gamble as to what you’re getting. 

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48 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Sorry - the post didn’t quote properly. The question was asked, who’s really making money on hockey - my reply was “plenty”. 

That's interesting!  I guess I have just never thought much about Hockey being a money maker.  I mean AAA coaches get paid I'm sure. But is it enough to have that as your full time job other than PPE.  Are the Esmark Coaches full time and that is their only job? If so then I think the quality should be way better.

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36 minutes ago, forbin said:

Most PAHL teams have at least two practices a week right? And from my experience most of them basically run the same practice format for both nights. Why not make one dedicated to skills and one dedicated to hockey IQ stuff? It would be totally doable. Even if multiple 12u teams are sharing the ice, they could work on full ice game systems together. Then throw in an after practice 30-45 minute video session. Instead they put so much emphasis on individual skills and seem to forget it’s a team sport. Just my .02 and because it’s so dependent on the coaching it’s a complete gamble as to what you’re getting. 

To be fair systems play per USA hockey is like ten percent of practice at that age. Systems doesn't really increase hockey IQ.  But off ice, have at it.

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

That's interesting!  I guess I have just never thought much about Hockey being a money maker.  I mean AAA coaches get paid I'm sure. But is it enough to have that as your full time job other than PPE.  Are the Esmark Coaches full time and that is their only job? If so then I think the quality should be way better.

I’m not bothering to argue with you, my days of caring are over. My kids are all aged out. People that have been around know the guys that are making money off the parents and players who want that fake extra A. 

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1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

I’m not bothering to argue with you, my days of caring are over. My kids are all aged out. People that have been around know the guys that are making money off the parents and players who want that fake extra A. 

So you are going to let the people who are just getting into this fend for themselves and not be guided by your wisdom? I think people like you might be a big part of the problem as they only care about their kids and then complain about the big picture after they have gained all the experience. Why do you even bother coming on here if you don't care?

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8 hours ago, Loach said:

I'm curious about the statement that local kids were cut for out of town kids regarding this year. 15u, 16u and 18u had their tryouts last week. Does anyone have a more definitive (or at least approximate) number on how many new kids from out of state made those midget teams? 

I heard at the 15u they cut 4 d, 1 goalie and 2 forwards, now I belive in addition 1 d and 2 or 3 forwars did not tryout. They took kids from LA, Dallas, Little Ceasers and a goalie from British Columbia. They also added 1 kid also from Pittsburgh, that went to play in the ccm 68 a year ago. The team has 3 kids from Pittsburgh if you count the 2007 that will play up with them most of the year, but not at mid am or nationals, the new kid they added, that never played there ever and 1 kid that has played on the team since first year squirts. The team will be good, some additions maybe better then some that did not make it, some won't. Some where guaranteed spots and the parent/s may be new staff members or skill instructors. Some of these kids have agents or influnce that helped them out. With this being said, it is hard to say they are great at development if you have 1 kid left after starting with this team from first year squirts, I would love to see if they are tracking any of this and any relitive data. I do think in the most part the kids that have been cast off this year and in the past are all good hockey players, some will go on farther than what is there, some won't. There is not much difference in other markets, this one might be more cause of the NHL franchise, but Detriot is a worst mess and now seems to be regresing, Chicago is a mess, so much a brand new team called the reapers poped up and is now advertising they are better and beyond this BS, it will only be a matter of time before they become what they hate. California is the same shit show with Parents willing to spend to get there kid on the Elite teams and then to send their kids to Shatuck, look how many kids from the Kings to Shatuck have happened overr the last couple years. One famouse NHL agents son I think is on the u16? Please don't bring up how perfect Minesotta hockey system is, cause it has its own shit show going on, just not as public as this message board. Florida started a program that was just to bring all the best Florida kids together and that has now blown up to kids from around the world. If the boarder was easier to get across you would see worst. Prep Schools / Catholic Schools and Hockey Academys like Excel are poping all over the country. Tahoe Prep, American Hockey Academy, Boston Hockey Academy, North Christian Hockey Academy, Bishop Kerney all in last 5 years or last year have all popped up. 

 

Getting back on track, Competion drives the market, it will continue to grow, hockey was never a sport for the poor, money will help your kids get farther and more chances / oppertunities. Overall Pens elite have increased the development of the area, while your kid might have got left behind, he might have also benifitted. It is a game outside a game, crying and bitching will get you know where, either get in and play or get out and shut up. 

 

The sad part is if you could somehow get people to fall in line and you took the best kids not on PPE in the area and put them one one team, they would probably kick the shit out of the ppe teams in most cases. But there are to many others that make money on the dream of your kid playing Juniors or College so they offer other options and dilute what could be a solid area team and before the AA or PAHL mom crashes this and says you should just give up, your kid will never make it and he should just play PAHL, relize you are just in a line, the more you push down the lower your kid goes in most cases. You don't add 10 AAA kids to a AA team and your kid doesnt move or get bumped off the team.

 

Oh well we can't all agree, do whats best for you and your kid and move on.

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Mr Freeze how does a person gain the knowledge you have about Hockey on the national level?  Have you been involved at a National level for a long time?  You have offered a lot of incite and good info. I do believe it is just the nature of sports and competition that teams and organizations are always trying to be the best and go to great lengths to accomplish it.  I like the idea of trying to put a group of local kids together to try and compete with PPE but I do believe that is impossible. I think Vengeance thought they could make a run at them and it hasn't happened yet. Who knows what the future will bring.  Bottom line with all this is it has to be the players dream and not the Parents.

Thanks for the input!

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11 hours ago, forbin said:

This is one example of maybe why its different (better?) in other areas: My friend in MN has kids who play high level. His youngest is a squirt minor A  at a large "powerhouse" organization and I guess would be comparable to the level of PPE/Vengeance at that age even though the skill level is much higher. They have three ice slots a week. One is a skills practice and power skating where they incorporate the PEP system. The other two practices are team drills. They run systems, they run passing plays, they go over powerplays and penalty kills.  They breakdown game film and show the kids what they did well and what they can improve on. They teach hockey IQ. There really isn't any reason why the local WPA organizations cant adopt that mentality even at the PAHL level. 

The reason why our locals don't have mentality is because they value games over practice. NCAA DI hockey programs play 30 games a year but 12 year olds need to play 60 games. Even NHL players have over 2 practices per game if you include game day skates.

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5 minutes ago, Denis Lemiuex said:

The reason why our locals don't have mentality is because they value games over practice. NCAA DI hockey programs play 30 games a year but 12 year olds need to play 60 games. Even NHL players have over 2 practices per game if you include game day skates.

I agree with that 100 percent. Practice is 1000 times more important than game times. Practice is the hard work. Games should be the reward for the hard work.

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On 5/11/2021 at 9:46 AM, fafa fohi said:

You must be new here.

There are a lot of people on this forum that firmly believe western PA rivals other hotbed hockey markets, which clearly it doesn't.  Have you looked at a PPE roster lately?  More and more kids are imports from out of state and word is with recent PPE tryouts many local kids from last years teams got cut and are looking at other options.  Vengeance, Lebo, Preds are all comprised of local players yet those teams can't compete with PPE...........I wonder why? 

I am not salty about anything, just stating facts.   

Exactly.  Western PA produced a kid who is at the camp...exactly zero kids at that camp from ohio or eastern PA! That kid played AA through squirts. Don’t hate on a talented athlete that western PA AA and AAA hockey helped develop!

 

 

 

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