Jkersman01

7 minutes ago, stickboy said:

I didn’t say prep schools do that. I said most top 10 programs do something similar, OR are prep schools.  Prep schools have a different goal as they are developing students also. But there you are paying more for less ice time. Depends what you are looking for and end goals.  

 

Ahh, got it. Again, pardon my ignorance but what other top programs do something like this? Non prep schools.  I’m just not hearing of any situations like what PPE does. 
 

My understanding is many other top programs cut down on the large group lesson/development approach and there is more time allotted for private skating and one on one work. 

8 minutes ago, stickboy said:

Welcome to what it takes to get to Tier 1 juniors and NCAA D1!  Like it or not, most of the Top 10 midget programs that provide the best exposure are doing something similar or are prep schools.  It sucks, but just the way it is

Do they?  I might have a blind spot here but if you’re doing pens, north Catholic and excel, you have 4 on ice and 4 off ice sessions a week for excel. Then 2+ on ice and 2+ off ice sessions a week for the team. 2 days a week you’ll have 2 on ice and 2 off ice sessions. I don’t know of any prep schools that do that. 

4 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

What I would like to know is why is it so important to pay North Catholic? Whats in it for the Pens org to do that? Do they get a kickback? 

Also, I know theoretically why they want you to do excel, you get a lot of ice time and they get a lot of money. But does it ever dawn on any parents that even NHL'ERS aren't on the ice that much? That there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to too much ice time/gym time? If everybody would use their heads and refuse to do this, then it wouldn't be a thing. But the allure of that gear bag and window sticker is enough to let it perpetuate, I guess. 

Agree 100%. They’ve created this hybrid model- prep school but for predominantly local kids to change schools to an inferior one. It makes no sense other than, like you said, to fill the ice from 1:30-4:30 every day. They need to decide- is this geared towards local kids? If so drop the north Catholic thing. Is it geared towards our of towners? If so build dorms. It was sloppily implemented but as long as they keep filling the spots and bringing in the revenue the new owners won’t care- just mitigate the cost of the facilities for the NHLers/ that’s the real goal peeps. 

And the cherry on top- those ‘top’ couple recruits they bring in each year aren’t paying anything for school, excel or pens fees. The local kids that pay full rate are essentially subsidizing them. 

2 hours ago, stickboy said:

Why do they need to play both?

If your PAHL??? Simple. Numbers. You don’t have the numbers to field a competitive division. PAHL is ecstatic if they get 4 girls teams in a division that are somewhat competitive. 16u was decent this year, right? Oh wait they folded the entire age group. So let’s block out anyone who wants to play PAHL 16u girls but maybe wants to get a few extra games in. So if you’re a decent minor birth year 16u girl, what do you do? You don’t restrict eligibility if you’re trying to grow a demographic of a sport. You expand it. PAHL can’t see it because none of the board members have girls that play, right? I think I’m right but I may be off. If they do, they don’t understand it at the older levels (past 12u). 
 

If you’re a decent player after 12u??? Simple- PAHL has such a huge disparity of girls on each team. Some can barely skate. It’s like forcing all the boys to play local in house. You’re severely restricting the ability to play with parity due to small numbers. You almost need to change on the horn with line parity. It sucks.

if you’re Steel City??? Well you’re providing an alternative now. Here’s an organization that understands girls hockey. For the record I have no affiliation there. But mid to high level PAHL girls that don’t want to be part of a league that can’t put together a decent league season and has clearly shown they have no interest in understanding or expanding girls hockey- here ya go. Now big question is how would this team schedule a competitive season-  but I can’t blame the families for looking elsewhere.

If PAHL isn’t going to look to grow girls hockey, freaking kudos for another origination to at least superficially look like they want to do it. 

This is 100% on PAHL. This gained traction when they tried to push through the anti-girls hockey rules. Soured some families and now they are looking for any alternative they can find. Ironically, even under those proposed rules these girls could have played both Selects and PAHL. I know a few of the families that expressed this sentiment. 

2 hours ago, Elitedaddy said:

Watch the games- it’s not always about the score sheet. I didn’t say that I’m not giving them props. Watch the games, they are vulnerable in the future. 

I don’t have a dog in this fight but come on…. These are 13 and 14 year old kids. They’re vulnerable for goodness sake and not perfect for sure. But don’t act like this result wouldn’t happen at least 80% of the time. That’s about as much of a guarantee as you’ll find. You must not have watched the ‘games’ this year but only watched the ‘game’ in question. 

4 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

Just like in Pittsburgh the pro organization really has nothing to do with the Jr teams besides letting them use their names, colors and logos. It's considered a non profit and used as a write-off.

Actually this isn’t accurate. They have a good bit to do with them. They own them and run them. They generally just hire ‘jr team’ staff so the big boys don’t have to deal with any of it. They only deal with what they want, or need, to deal with. 

2 hours ago, ice is cold said:

Did you read what I said? Your disagreement has nothing to do with what I responded with. Your logic/example says anyone who is harassed should have their own safe space to play with like people. That was my comment to you. If you don't like how you come across or how you sound so ignorant,  as  you are recommended segregation in hockey with your example, that's on you. As you brought it out as the example and I'm just calling it what it is 

Back stepping into game counts and practices has nothing to do with my comment. 

Good damn lord. Ps . I'm a female ex college D1 athlete, and 3 sport HS all American,  so yeah. Tell me about female sports and our fight. Please. Enlighten me?!? 

My argument was with your poor example of why girls don't or won't want to play pihl and why they need other places.to play . Girls have fought for years across more than sports. FYI. So I take offense to you insinuating we can't handle some name calling when boys and girls  have unfortunately dealt with it for centuries. 

Im not engaging with you anymore. 

Nothing I said was personal to you at all. I’m just trying to engage in discussion to understand things better and understand perspectives. Sorry you got offended. Sometimes it is hard to really understand tone and viewpoint on message boards. Congrats on all your accomplishments and laying out why you’re way more qualified than me to have an opinion on this. I guess I’m just a concerned father, team manager, and friend to many families that are heartbroken by this and promised them I’d do what I could to understand perspectives and viewpoints better.  No D1 athlete here… you got me… overworked dad bod going on🤷😉
 

So are you saying we should essentially make all sports co-ed then? Come on, I’m not recommending segregation in hockey. Unreal. USA hockey has separate girls hockey rules and divisions for crying out loud.  Were your D1 and all American accolades co-ed too? If not, why did you play girls sports and not instead try to play high level boys sports? I’m getting off topic and don’t want this thread shut down in case there is other info anyone has on this that could help the debate before the vote occurs in a few weeks. Private message me if you still wish to engage, sorry you are bowing out. You might have a helpful perspective.

In have a feeling this is fizzling out. Great context on Facebook if anyone is interested in learning more and helping to support local girls hockey development. 
 

https://www.facebook.com/story.php/?id=841603716173422&story_fbid=2161727097494404

These are some of the families I’m supporting. 3 of these mothers are D1 athletes who helped me understand the inequities here. Maybe that will resonate with some of you since if my hot air will not. 

1 hour ago, ice is cold said:

What happened to that goalie was awful, and 100% should never happen. But if you think all players regardless of sex don't deal with the BS of horribly raised children, you live in a bubble. Racist comments are all over the ice (and any sport), as well as derogatory comments to all players regardless of race, sex, etc.  until people start raising their kids correctly and ramifications are handed out, some kids will just continue (ill lump parents in their too)

I'm not downgrading anything, but by that statement you are saying any demographic that doesn't fit what you perceive as a hockey demographic should have their own team and league to not deal with poorly raised players and parents. 🤔 I thought we were all trying to go the other direction.... 

I disagree vehemently with this logic but let’s say you’re exactly right. Make PAHL and PIHL the options for girls. Now it’s equal. How many PAHL girls have a legitimate shot at making a high school team? Remember the top girls aren’t playing PAHL now. I’d say very few especially at decent sized schools. Now girls make up less than 1% of the PIHL players- is that really a second option? You’re making the second option an option the girls are by and large not going to be able to actually have practically speaking.
 

Under this rule, like Bender said, a PAHL girl is now playing a 12 game PAHL season if she’s lucky (assuming  PAHL girls teams don’t crumble under this rule which some certainly will) and can’t crack a high school team. Practice once a week if she’s lucky on Saturday night. A boy is playing 25ish games for PAHL, regular practices, plus a full PIHL schedule, regular practices. 
 

Rules are now equal. Are they equitable?

34 minutes ago, James Gatz said:

Saying that the second 10 girls PPE team is a Tier 1 team, however, is not consistent with everyone's definition of Tier 1.  

This is important and being ignored here by many. The 10U PPE black team this year was essentially playing an A minor gold schedule. The 3rd to bottom division in PAHL. Under this rule, those girls are considered Tier 1 and "too good" to play PAHL.

My daughter played on the 'gold' PPE girls team for 5 years. Our most competitive games were A major black (2nd highest). We'd play some AA games here and there but I'd say we won 1 out of 4 of those. Fairly competitive.

I'm guessing here, but probably 20% of the girls playing PAHL girls at the 10U level (maybe a bit less at 12U) also play on a PPE team. Many girls double roster in PAHL (10u and 12u, as has been said) to fill out teams. I wouldn't be surprised if this rule ended up causing PAHL to consider, if not go to, a model where 10/12u merge, and 14/16/19u merge. There already is one 16U team playing 19U. The skill discrepancy would be so bad it would make many girls frustrated and likely want to quit. 

My guess is the organizations that field girls teams don't like this proposed rule because it will destroy their girls programs. The orgs that don't probably either are (i) indifferent, (ii) against it, if one of these girls took a roster spot from one of their boys who is only a couple good bounces away from making the NHL, or (iii) against it because they're upset that they have a kid that plays on a legitimate Tier I boys team and can't play PAHL, but girls can so they're getting an unfair advantage and more ice time. If you think the third is ridiculous, it is not. I didn't make that up and I fear one organization is going to vote for the adoption of this rule based on that logic. 

41 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

 

Seems simplistic to me. Everyone can play amateur and pihl. That should be the only hockey conflicts. 

I see your point. Let me throw this back out there then. Boys have a legitimate option to play on two teams. PIHL and amateur. Let’s make the rules ‘equal’ and say girls have those same options. Is playing PIHL for girls a legitimate option when compared to the non-PIHL girls teams? I can tell you absolute horror stories of girls playing on PIHL teams with the boys. One of which made the news 2 years ago with the Mars goalie. It might look ‘equal’ on paper, but PIHL isn’t a legitimate option for girls unfortunately. So this rule leaves boys with two options and girls with one. 

Everyone seems to think it’s completely fine for boys to prioritize PIHL over PAHL, but girls can’t prioritize their non-PAHL girls team over PAHL?

I should note, she only missed 1 period of 1 PAHL game when she played both because of conflicts with PPE. And I should note this doesn’t apply to us now so I have no horse in this race. 

11 hours ago, ice is cold said:

A pahl teammate missing games/practice for a  pihl conflict is ok and  acceptable. But to miss because of pahl or similar conflicts I see an issue...

I'm just curious as to the rationale here. Not trying to be confrontational, just understand. Why is it acceptable for a player to miss a PAHL game/practice for PIHL, but not acceptable for a girl to miss a game for a girls team for example? I know you didn't say "girl" to be clear, but I think that's the root of the issue here with this rule that's causing some concern. The big argument against this from the girls side is that it is OK for boys to play on a PIHL team (non-PAHL) as their second team, but not OK for a girl to play on a girls team (non-PAHL) as her second team.

7 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

So by logic, there aren't enough of these players being developed properly to continue at the Tier 1 level past 12U..................................................... ORRRRRRRRRR

There are some 12U and 10U families that have been sold a large dose of Kool-aid for their 4 years in the program.

What’s wrong with the 10u and 12u black team families at PPE doing what they’re doing? 4 years playing a combo of local games that they pick against generally similar competition and adding to it about 6 regional tournaments against other girls teams? Would you rather put these girls in the girls ‘PAHL pen’ where there are 4 teams in a division and 2 of them can barely skate? And play each other like 4 times and call it a season…?

2 hours ago, James Gatz said:

There are two proposed rule changes related to roster limitations girls.  Both cite litigation fears as a rationale for the rule change.  This is the second.

 

Interesting. I fear sometimes when we oversimplify things we miss a legitimate rooted difference. Being the same isn’t being equitable in many cases.  The state of girls hockey and boys hockey is different. I wish they’d acknowledge that. 

17 minutes ago, Corsi said:

"Are they really concerned about getting sued here"...  that should answer your question about the context, of course the fear is that they would get sued.

I get that was the stated rationale. My question was a little deeper than that. Maybe phrased this way - were there really rumblings that some 9,10, 11 year old boy families were so irate that they couldn't play both PPE/Vengeance and PAHL, saw that girls could do it, and were threatening to sue over it essentially claiming girls get preferential treatment? On top of it all, I believe PPE prohibits boys from playing on another team anyway, so not sure that would be contributing to this. Just seeing if anyone knows if there is more to it than what is stated as the rationale.

In some ways, perhaps this could open them up at the minimum for bad press (i.e. news story that local hockey organization restricting eligibility of girls), but potentially to litigation the other way. To be clear, I don't think the latter would happen. 

Just seems strange to me at a time when PAHL probably has the most "competition" it has ever had, a topic of discussion is apparently focused on prohibiting a good bit of girls from being eligible to play. 

Interesting the impact this will have… I get this impacts only a small number of people but wonder why they felt it so important to address it. Are they really concerned about getting sued here? Curious if anyone has any context on this. 

GIRLS PLAYOFFS - FINAL

Quarterfinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 0 (5) Chicago Mission

16U (7) Pens 1 vs. 3 (8) Mid Fairfield Stars

Semifinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens 1 vs. 3 (8) Detroit Little Caesars

Finals (Monday, April 3)

None

BOYS PLAYOFFS - FINAL

Quarterfinals (Saturday, April 1)

14U (3) Pens 3 vs. 1 (5) Rhode Islands Saints

15U (9) Pens 2 vs. 1 (2) Chicago Mission

16U Allegheny Badgers 5 vs. 2 Power City Bruins

18U Mt Lebo Hornets 3 vs. 4 Philadelphia Blazers

Semifinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 7 (2) Chicago Mission

15U (9) Pens 2 vs. 5 (5) LA Jr. Kings

16U Allegheny Badgers 1 vs. 3 Woodbridge Wolfpack

Finals (Monday, April 3)

None

GIRLS PLAYOFFS

Quarterfinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 0 (5) Chicago Mission

16U (7) Pens 1 vs. 3 (8) Mid Fairfield Stars

Semifinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens vs. (8) Detroit Little Caesars

BOYS PLAYOFFS

Quarterfinals (Saturday, April 1)

14U (3) Pens 3 vs. 1 (5) Rhode Islands Saints

15U (9) Pens 2 vs. 1 (2) Chicago Mission

16U Allegheny Badgers 5 vs. 2 Power City Bruins

18U Mt Lebo Hornets 3 vs. 4 Philadelphia Blazers

Semifinals (Sunday, April 2)

14U (3) Pens vs. (2) Chicago Mission

15U (9) Pens vs. (5) LA Jr. Kings

16U Allegheny Badgers vs. Woodbridge Wolfpack

GIRLS RESULTS

Thursday, March 30

3:30PM                 14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 0 (14) Mid Fairfield Stars

11:15AM              16U Steel City Selects 1 vs. 2 Philadelphia Jr. Flyers

11:30AM              16U (7) Pens 4 vs. 3 (10) Philadelphia Jr. Flyers
3:15PM                 19U Armstrong Arrows 0 vs. 1 Philadelphia Jr. Flyers

3:15PM                 19U Steel City Selects 2 vs. 3 Premier Prep Royal

5:00PM                 14U S Pittsburgh Rebellion 1 vs. 2 Hockey Club Fairbanks

5:00PM                 14U Steel City Selects 1 vs. 4 Chicago Hawks

Friday, March 31

11:00AM              19U Armstrong Arrows 6 vs. 2 Montana Wolves

11:00AM              19U Steel City Selects 2 vs. 3 Mid Fairfield Stars

1:15PM                 14U Steel City Selects 0 vs. 4 Valley Jr. Warriors

2:30PM                 14U (3) Pens 7 vs. 0 (11) Team Colorado

3:05PM                 14U S Pittsburgh Rebellion 2 vs. 1 Nashville Jr. Predators

3:30PM                 16U (7) Pens 2 vs. 0 (15) Team Colorado

6:55PM                 16U Steel City Selects 1 vs. 4 Casco Bay Mariners

Saturday, April 1

10:50AM              14U S Pittsburgh Rebellion 1 vs. 4 Adirondack Northstars

11:05AM              14U Steel City Selects 2 vs. 3 Philadelphia Jr. Flyers

11:15AM              14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 1 (6) Team Illinois

2:30PM                 16U (7) Pens 3 vs. 2 (2) Assabet Valley

2:40PM                 16U Steel City Selects 0 vs. 1 Glenview Stars

4:40PM                 19U Armstrong Arrows 1 vs. 6 South Anchorage Oilers

4:55PM                 19U Steel City Selects 3 vs. 5 East Coast Wizards

Sorry I've fallen really far behind. 4 posts coming. Boys prelim round schedule, girls prelim round schedule, playoff results thus far and girls playoff results thus far.

BOYS RESULTS

Wednesday, March 29

12:30PM              15U (9) Pens 4 vs. 2 (8) Mid Fairfield Jr Rangers

2:45PM                 14U (10) Vengeance 2 vs. 5 (7) Buffalo Saints

4:15PM                 16U (11) Barons 1 vs. 2 (6) Detroit Little Caesars

4:30PM                14U (3) Pens 3 vs. 2 (14) Valley Forge

5:00PM                 18U (6) Pens 1 vs. 3 (11) Buffalo Regals

Thursday, March 30

10:00AM              15U (9) Pens 2 vs. 4 (1) Detroit Little Caesars

12:30PM              14U (10) Vengeance 7 vs. 3 (2) Chicago Mission

2:15PM                 16U (11) Barons 3 vs. 4 (3) North Jersey Avalanche

2:30PM                14U (3) Pens 5 vs. 0 (11) Boston Jr. Eagles

2:30PM                 18U (6) Pens 3 vs. 0 (14) Anaheim Jr Ducks

3:00PM                 18U Mt. Lebo Hornets 1 vs. 2 Team Ohio

3:15PM                 14U North Pittsburgh 1 vs. 5 OC Hockey

6:45PM                 16U Allegheny Badgers 2 vs. 3 Boston Jr. Eagles

Friday, March 31

10:45AM              14U (10) Vengeance 1 vs. 3 (15) Carolina Jr Hurricanes

11:45AM              16U (11) Barons 2 vs. 3 (14) Seacoast Performance Academy

12:15PM              18U (6) Pens 2 vs. 4 (3) Rhode Island Saints

12:30PM              14U (3) Pens 5 vs. 3 (6) MN Lakers

1:00PM                 16U Allegheny Badgers 3 vs. 1 Texas Tigers

2:00PM                 18U Mt. Lebo Hornets 6 vs. 4 Minnesota Grey Ducks

5:00PM                 15U (9) Pens 8 vs. 1 (16) Team North Dakota

5:00PM                 14U North Pittsburgh 1 vs. 4 St. Louis Eagles

Saturday, April 1

9:00AM                14U North Pittsburgh 0 vs. 5 Darien (CT)

10:15AM              16U Allegheny Badgers 7 vs. 3 Troy Sting

12:15PM              18U Mt. Lebo Hornets 2 vs. 1 Northern Michigan United

GIRLS RESULTS

Thursday, March 30

3:30PM                 14U (3) Pens 4 vs. 0 (14) Mid Fairfield Stars

11:15AM              16U Steel City Selects 1 vs. 2 Philadelphia Jr. Flyers

11:30AM              16U (7) Pens 4 vs. 3 (10) Philadelphia Jr. Flyers
3:15PM                 19U Armstrong Arrows 0 vs. 1 Philadelphia Jr. Flyers

3:15PM                 19U Steel City Selects 2 vs. 3 Premier Prep Royal

5:00PM                 14U S Pittsburgh Rebellion 1 vs. 2 Hockey Club Fairbanks

5:00PM                 14U Steel City Selects 1 vs. 4 Chicago Hawks

BOYS RESULTS

Wednesday, March 29

12:30PM              15U (9) Pens 4 vs. 2 (8) Mid Fairfield Jr Rangers

2:45PM                 14U (10) Vengeance 2 vs. 5 (7) Buffalo Saints

4:15PM                 16U (11) Barons 1 vs. 2 (6) Detroit Little Caesars

4:30PM                14U (3) Pens 3 vs. 2 (14) Valley Forge

5:00PM                 18U (6) Pens 1 vs. 3 (11) Buffalo Regals

Thursday, March 30

10:00AM              15U (9) Pens 2 vs. 4 (1) Detroit Little Caesars

12:30PM              14U (10) Vengeance 7 vs. 3 (2) Chicago Mission

2:15PM                 16U (11) Barons 3 vs. 4 (3) North Jersey Avalanche

2:30PM                14U (3) Pens 5 vs. 0 (11) Boston Jr. Eagles

2:30PM                 18U (6) Pens 3 vs. 0 (14) Anaheim Jr Ducks

3:00PM                 18U Mt. Lebo Hornets 1 vs. 2 Team Ohio

3:15PM                 14U North Pittsburgh 1 vs. 5 OC Hockey

6:45PM                 16U Allegheny Badgers 2 vs. 3 Boston Jr. Eagles

Here were the scores of Day 1, summarized. I'll try to update daily. 

Wednesday, March 29

12:30PM              15U (9) Pens 4 vs. 2 (8) Mid Fairfield Jr Rangers

2:45PM                 14U (10) Vengeance 2 vs. 5 (7) Buffalo Saints

4:15PM                 16U (11) Barons 1 vs. 2 (6) Detroit Little Caesars

4:30PM                14U (3) Pens 3 vs. 2 (14) Valley Forge

5:00PM                 18U (6) Pens 1 vs. 3 (11) Buffalo Regals

Also, the times I posted above are local times. With some of these sites being in different time zones, if you do have an interest in a game in particular, you might want to double check the website.