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People have too much time on their hands

Tier 2 hockey is becoming such a cesspool of misleading organization leadership promoting the pathway to higher opportunities. I was reading various websites promoting that they will connect their players to junior and college teams. Add to that the 9 million private training outfits that charge ridiculous amounts of money to get your kid to the next level and the advent of Tier 2 tournaments advertised as “AAA” showcases or “College Exposure Showcases” where nobody is really there to be scouting. And even worse the advent of competing Tier 2 AA “National Bound Tournament Teams” as we see in Altoona and State College where kids play mostly for A level PAHL teams all season while playing tournaments expecting to compete in States effectively all for an additional $1500-$2000 on top of your regular PAHL team fees. Altoona does have 1 team doing it right as a full season team so I lay credit where it’s due. The increased emphasis on Tier 2 National Bound glory has become an extremely unhealthy obsession in some areas. Add Black Bear to this and the line between non-profit organization and ice rink business is increasingly disappearing where you see organization higher ups running the organization and are on the rink’s payroll at the same time. And with multiple rinks set up this way it creates the potential for the business to keep these programs in cahoots with each other thus creating the shell game where players can be encouraged to be moved around to satisfy their situations of need in their respective organizations and facilities. Based on what I’ve witnessed thus far I’m led to believe that’s already happened. it’s a sad reality with the direction hockey is going in these parts I think the volunteer run organization that’s there for the kids is fading away fast for adults to profit off these kids thus driving up costs and potentially driving families to the point they can’t afford to play all while not re-investing a portion of those funds back into facilities to where we have quality customer service oriented staff, clean restrooms and locker rooms that don’t have puddles of piss on the floor, mold growing in the showers, no extra glass on hand requiring plywood as a fix, as well as effective preventive maintenance on the aging chillers, dehumidifiers and Zambonis A lot of these rinks are not taken care of and it shows I hope I’m wrong but it seriously concerns me where we are going to be say 5 years down the road I’m a realist and I know it’s never going to happen but it’s time to refocus on being honest and doing what’s right for kids End rant!!

Most accurate, non arguable, post in years.

I think it's going to be a difficult year for the whole league. I know there has been a lot of turnover, but it just illustrates how organized, detailed, invested but most of all, under-appreciated Mr. John Mucha was in this role.

The MHR rankings are meaningless at this time, as everyone knows. It's silly to be discussing them. But just as a nod to how this board slants towards girls hockey, the Steel City Selects 16U team is #1 right now in Tier 2 Tournament Bound. Pens Elite Girls 19U is #14 in Tier 1 Tournament Bound, Pens Elite Girls 16U is #3 in Tier 1, Pens Elite 14U are #11 in Tier 1, Again, these rankings are meaningless at this time. I specifically doubt that the Steel City Selects will be anywhere near that high in three weeks. Having said that, as long as we are talking about local teams in the rankings, it seems only fair to mention the local girls teams, too.

Please, you have been reading and posting non stop on this Board for over a year now! I feel confident that you know by now the reasons people feel AA has tanked around here! Your desire to be a cheerleader for local hockey is duly noted! You are great at it! Keep cheering on those grandkids!

Ice Rink ownership is a business just like GM, Ford, Samsung Apple, etc. I'm sure they could all have beautiful facilities but then you couldn't afford to play! Does anyone realize how much money was pumped into the area this weekend from that Tier 1 Hockey Federation Showcase? Who really cares how good the Hockey was! I would much rather have the revenue at Hotels and restaurants in the area from this tournament. These kids played their hearts out this weekend in Pittsburgh! Maybe the facilities aren't perfect and the Hockey wasn't the best but they were out there competing and giving their best effort. All you haters need to find some other sport to complain about!

Oh that is malarkey. Give me a break. I don't buy this narrative. Maybe a coach pulls a team out of disgust with PAHL, but Mom and dad pull their kid because their kid didn't make AA or to chase the extra A or to follow the kids on that team. If PAHL made a bunch of changes....the disgruntled and disillusioned would still leave. It's done. The cat is out of the bag. No matter what PAHL does, people will move their kids to chase. They do it once....and they never stop. That isn't to say that there isn't room to improve or change. Change needs to happen above PAHL. I think this area needs some rules that make it harder to jump ship every season. But the same people moaning about PAHL will say....oh, no, we need our freedom of choice. I think there is no pleasing people in this area.Dsmned if you do, damned if you don't.

There have not been any changes to PAHL in many many years. Change takes work. I don’t think the leaders are interested in doing any more work than they do now. I believe new people would be more energetic in their efforts.

Lets hear your thoughts on the first rankings release with our local teams.

Cool, cool. Do that, for sure. But you also seem to have an unrelenting desire to chide people for being negative, by your definition. You don't have anything to add to the conversation other than.....be positive! As nd a bunch of exclamation points.

Way.....Too.....Early Do this in December. Then it'll get exciting.

If you take out Pens elite in every one of these brackets, and Pens elite and Esmark in 18U, looks like you would have some pretty competitive local hockey. Especially at 16U and 14U. Also in general tiers don't seem to matter. Sorry - had to use my lunch break.

To be fair I don’t think they touched anything else besides the concrete floor all summer. The boards and glass are the old ones. Then they hit a few obstacles when trying to fill, so it was pushed back a couple of weeks. I do believe they have intentions of replacing the lights, scoreboard, LiveBarn camera, sound system. I have heard all of these will be updated in the coming weeks per a rink worker. The locker rooms were a clusterf*ck for sure. The ice okay. Like I said I think they rushed it, so it’s not ideal. However I do know the SP people are happy to have the extra sheet and the more frequent and longer practice slots.

Most if not all rinks around here make money. No one is running them from the goodness of their hearts.

Exactly!!! There seem to be some bitter people on this forum! Maybe they expected more for their kids and it didn't happen.

Why do you care? According to your logic there should only be maybe 10 AAA teams in the country! Would that make you happy? Why are you always so negative? Should the teams that finish near the bottom in the NHL fold because they aren't competitive? The people on here who judge the level of hockey played in this area annoy me to no end! Who really cares? Let the kids play without your criticism! How about admiring them for putting it all out there! 95% are playing as hard as they can for the love of the sport!

I always feel like baierl is one of the most well kept rinks in the area when I'm up there. To think that baierl and alpha used to be identical is wild now with how rough alpha is.

A low 2007 BY and an exodus to AAA and there are 11 16u AA teams. 😄 Wow, the level of play got significantly better overnight around here.

While I agree that people will leave to chase the extra A regardless of what PAHL does, I can also say that I know they have driven good AA players away. I know of at least a dozen players who were perfectly content to play local AA hockey, but instead played on subpar AAA teams because of the fair play point system. It has essentially turned PAHL into a non-contact league for fear of losing points for a ref making a judgement call and giving a 2 and 10. For anyone who would like to play either juniors or club hockey, it's hard to play non-contact through all of bantam and midget and then have to learn how to take a hit by a full grown man.

And new blood can't penetrate the PAHL block wall.

There are always opportunities for improvement in any organization and it's easy to sit on an anonymous message board and bitch, moan, whine and complain. It's a lot harder to come up with real-life, concrete, workable solutions. What are your specific recommendations and what have you done to put those forward for consideration?

SMH. I remember when you had to earn AA in PAHL. So much hatred for the so-called “faux” AAA teams out there. I’ve said it all along.. a small percentage of the parents on the non-PPE teams still chase the NHL dream, a large portion simply move on out of disgust for PAHL. Not the talent level but how he league is operated. The people running the league are dinosaurs with nothing better to do with their time since their kids aged out 15 years ago. No vested interest. No desire to make positive changes. Zero constructive thinking beyond the obvious until it comes to their favorite.. doling out disciplinary actions. Placements are a joke as well..I’m placing my bets on any team from Cambria, Westmoreland, Wheeling etc. to win any division. Tank the placements and cruise through the regular season while they run the wheels off of their top 2 players who shouldn’t be playing A major whatever because the organization “doesn’t have the talent to support a AA team”. PAHL is a joke and a bigger problem to local hockey than anything else.

For the most part, that's correct. But for some teams, the early rankings will signify the end of their delusion........ I mean dream of qualifying for the District play-down.

One week from Wednesday. The 27th.

Agree! Seems like PIHL is behind. By this time last year the site had rosters and full season schedules for all teams in all divisions and ages. Mucha definitely was under-appreciated!

I started a thread on this at the beginning of last season. More often than not Esmark has been passed up by Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA according to the rankings. That will probably accelerate as they continue to play out of PIA. And in terms of what constitutes a legit AAA team, I think it's more helpful to look at the rankings of recent teams that have won Tier II national championships. Where were they ranked? SCIR 16U won a Tier 2 national championship as the 178th ranked 16U team in the country. Yes that's low, but you have to be a ridiculously good AA team, borderline AAA team to win a Tier 2 national championship. And there are also countless examples of teams ranked in the 75 range that do very well at Tier 1 nationals. So for all the AAA gatekeepers that say you have to be a top 40 team to consider yourself AAA, you're just wrong. And it's kind of gross how you take pride in delegitimizing teams. (Not speaking to this particular comment, just in general.)

I know this differs by age but I think the AHF folks have to start fielding a better top to bottom ranked teams for the switch to happen. We thought about it for one of my kids teams but PAHL was better competition so why add the travel? A showcase or two is one thing but what if you have to play a season?

Yes, the AHF league is a glorified PAHL level league that you will travel very far to play in and spend lots of money on hotels. They will try to dress it up with stats and "neat" stuff to sell the kids and parents on it. It makes no sense to drive 5+ hours and play similar PAHL competition multiple times a year. Just my thoughts. And again, if all the wanna be AAA teams in the burgh that aren't in the top 50 just played PAHL, it would be a MUCH better league the the AHF league. Might not have as cool of a website or the stats but it would be a lot higher level of play. BB is laughing all the way to the bank at these teams they push into this league.

Some random thoughts from a consumer’s standpoint: The AHF(Big Bear) should be a wake up call for PAHL as a “service provider” and it’s member organizations. The AHF provides stats. PAHL does not. They are generally hidden from public view and I’m not sure why. The AHF promotes their league, teams and players on social media and thru tournaments. PAHL does not. These things matter in todays hockey world. From getting a players name out there, to attracting better teams for competition and establishing league recognition on a national level. For the record I do understand that I’m talking about Tier 2. As an example most everyone knows about the CSDHL and the quality of the teams in that league year after year. Your team is going get a good game. Maybe PAHL starts to organize some showcase tournaments with other leagues??? Maybe PAHL does all star teams? Or “select” teams to compete in spring tournaments?…I think you can find most of that on the AHF page. So much is said about growing the sport in this area. Well, PAHL and its member organizations have been running things around here for decades like a glorified traveling house league and that needs to change sooner than later. IMO the league hasn’t seen the writing on the wall but many member organizations have. The result is all of the independent teams that people on here complain about. Props to those organizations for trying to fill the expectations of what travel hockey should be. I ask this question: “Why are newer NHL city’s in non-traditional hockey markets developing and moving on more kids than Western PA which has had some form of pro hockey for almost 100 years?” To my earlier point, we should be done “growing” the sport and established. High school hockey has been played here for over 50 years at some organizations. Based on a 4 year “generation” at that level we’ve had 12+ generations in that timespan. The foundation is there but the maturity is not. Bottom line is PAHL has competition and competition is good for the consumer. PAHL can raise the bar and improve the product that they control or become a memory.

But....I don't have positive things to say! So why bother responding when you will bemoan that I am so negative! He loved his hockey experience. No regrets there

Danner - Alot of these kids are getting cut by Pitt and IUP and may end up in D3 ACHA...............Time to launcn Slippery Rock in 24

15-16-18 (I suppose the years that matter, not so sure about 18’s anymore) it appears nothing has changed over the last 10-12 years. The predators “AAA” program continues to be a joke. Season is over before it started. Keep paying King Ralph & Gary. Mid level AA hockey at best. with all that said the final ending for 99.9% of all these players will be the acha IF they can make a club a team, continue to play as “adults”.

Been saying that for years. Would be a great league of 6-8 teams. Because of egos I don't think it would ever happen. They are all pretty close. Call it the PHF (Pittsburgh Hockey Federation). It will never happen.

Kids are playing hockey and love doing so. Let’s not lose sight of that. Your concerns are rather trivial in nature. Perhaps a hobby would better suit your time. This youth hockey drama is an unhealthy obsession.

While your cheerleading of hockey organizations and coaches is commendable and I mostly agree, let's not pretend that every organization and coach is doing what they're doing because of altruism.

If the coaches are honest with the parents/players regarding their level of talent, I'm generally fine with players playing on whatever team they choose. With MHR now, it's pretty clear to everyone what level a team is at, it really doesn't matter whether they have 3 A's or 2. If you are ranked at the bottom of the AAA teams and lower than a bunch of AA teams, it doesn't matter the label, everyone knows you are AA at best. It does bug me when these teams then schedule predominantly above their talent level, thinking they are going to magically compete. It's a waste of time and money for teams traveling distances to have to play some of these dreamers. I won't throw specific teams under the bus, but there were some examples in the THF tourney here this weekend.

Should he lose money for the good of Hockey? Ultimately it's a business! I doubt he is getting super rich from this. Chances are Black Bear would have owned that rink also if he wasn't running it!

But are you paying that kind of money with that kind of commitment? If not, the why do you care?

Baierl has come light years from where it was. I am extremely thankful that Jim turned it around and made it a great place to play. You must have an ax to grind or are a moron. I am guessing both.

AAA hockey? absolutly not. from an officails persepective this was a walk in the park. AA at best.

Print scape as a hole is a dump. Locker room smell like piss. No effort to clean the facilities. Not as bad as Alpha complex but close. Note: Not to say they staff doesnt care. Rink Two is thin and experienced holes that needed patched between cuts. Shoody board and No score board. Take notice. Baierl for being one of the oldest puts in the most improvements. UPMC is well, Penguinsn sponsered. Alpha - mice / rodent issues- dirty as hell. drainage problems ect. PIA nough said. Ice castle - cold and dirty RMU is also a dump but decent ice and lighting. Mt lebonon - decent Show cases in western pa should be kept to: Bairel and UMPC exclusivly. Need more sheet RMU.

Completely nonsensical, especially with only seven teams in A Major Black. The two orgs fielding two teams in 16U AA will have one team at or around the top, and the "second" team will be 15 games under .500. Those same parents excited to see little Johnny at the AA level will be the first ones yelling and screaming when they get boat raced by seven goals a game. Bank on it.

I was our org. rep for PAHL when my ‘03 was in PW. On the outside it looks like your breakdown on how the league operates. On the inside it’s completely different and changes are met with strong “suggestions” to leave things as is. Basically you will be told that anything that requires any sweat equity outside of the current level will be shut down. The board has their cronies at various organizations and they will have their backing when they need to either push an agenda or shut something down. My main suggestions were a) a gradual transition period for the oldest mite group to eventually play a minimum of 2 full ice games at the end of the year. b) Required transition to checking camp/clinics by each organization for all players moving from PW to bantam. Even just a 1 day clinic to learn how not only to check cleanly but how to take a check. Also to fortify what the purpose of checking is in the game. That was almost 10 years ago. Glad they added that FPP though. Discipline and controls for discipline are what matters most to the powers that be.

For every team/player that has left PAHL there is a team/player that has left as a result of their dislike for the PAHL model. Honestly, I don’t think there would be any “faux” AAA teams if there was another league or AA option in the area at 14-18U that had a focus on adapting to change and growing the game.

PAHL, IMHO is a classic pyramid scheme in that the bulk of the money is paid by the lowest age group. The Squirt parent that is brand new to travel hockey and doesn’t know anything about the organization or the league, their kid made a team and they start writing checks. By the time Mom and Dad start to figure things out and ask questions, their kid is older and probably a year away from HS and we all know that is where the drop off starts. PAHL administration know that there is an endless supply of folk that will give them 4-6 years of money, nobody is doing anything to challenge them or propose a viable alternative so why should they change?

The coach for SHAHA 18u AA is the PAHL league officer 1st Vice president. That’s one thing that separates them from Westmoreland

Again, the biggest problem with PAHL is all the bogus AAA wanna be teams that left. If they could get all those teams back you would have an excellent AA league. Maybe if they did all the PR that the AHF did it would help but I highly doubt it. That league is not much better. Their best beat would be to label it as a new AAA and then they would MAYBE get all the faux AAA teams back and have a good league.

Rankings don't mean much until mid December in my opinion. By the end of December there usually isn't big changes but week 1 through then will have a lot of big changes. Just not enough data the first few weeks.