No Politics

Not discounting what you are saying, and I say this half-jokingly:  Walt Disney didn't blindly play the lottery to build his empire -- he had a well thought out plan -- and Wayne Gretzky said that he didn't mean for us to take shots from our own defensive end.

"Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the present." -- Qui-Gon Jinn 

😉

2 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

I simply can't fathom how far people will go to chase something that's not happening in 99.5% of the cases.

And blindly.

But... "That only happens to other people.  We'll be different."

To help kids find homes, I'd like to start a topic for Supplementals only (separate from the general Tryouts topic).  I know the Arrows posted some supplementals to the Tryouts page, but those might get lost there, and we know more will come from other organizations.

I try helping players find homes every year, and I know how much anxiety there is this time of the year, so anything we can do to make it easier for them...

On 3/28/2024 at 11:53 AM, McCartyMonster said:

So I would say, don’t bash an organization you really don’t know anything about

I can appreciate what you are saying MCM.  However, when did your player start at the Aviators?  

Would you say that it is unfair to tell someone who left the Aviators organization that they don't know anything about the Aviators because they weren't there this past season?

I know numerous families who were at the Aviators -- from all locations -- and left.  And I know why.  Some had legitimate reasons, and some didn't.

The 2010 teams are rocking.  There is no doubt about that.  But just a couple years ago the Aviators had their 16U team implode and go 0-20 on the season.  If I recall correctly only two of those 16U 2007s returned, and ALL the 2008s from the 14U team left.  And just this year I had a parent from the 14U A Major Black team tell me they were angry because that team was sold as a AA Major team.

None of that sounds like happiness to me.

I know some of the folks heading up the Aviators now, and I know they are good people.  I sincerely hope that even better days are ahead.  I'm also happy that your player and your family are happy there.  What is better than that, right?  I would just caution that if you feel you can praise the organization -- or ANY organization -- because of your positive experiences, then you need to respect the fact that some people have the right to "look down" on an organization because of their own, personal negative experiences.

It is the parents.  I tell families with mite players to find a team your kid is happy on and stick with it.

Every season it's the same thing.  Some people call it "A chasing," but I call it lack of foresight, as well.  If your kid leaves a team where they are happy -- so they can play for a team with an extra A -- that doesn't mean they're locked in for life.  The next season they might not make that team, it may have been a bad experience, or the team/organization could even fold.  Then they're stuck and desperate to find a home.

Can't move down a level, though, right?

Multiply that by 80% of the folks out there, and you get what we are seeing right now.

It's absolutely stupid, and the sad part is that parents only realize they goofed after their kid's time is done and they're playing beer league.

The sadder part is that they took other kids with them.

10 hours ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

Anybody know how 08 and/or 09 open skates or tryouts went this week?  Interesting to see the player movement 

Most '08 tryouts start this week.  Here are some.  I'm not leaving anyone off intentionally -- these are just the ones I have -- and feel free to make corrections if anything is incorrect.

Predators (AAA) start today (4/13).  Sorry, but I have no information on the Predators.

Arrows AA NB and Esmark AAA start tomorrow (4/14).  Arrows had their free skate/clinic Thursday and had a great turnout (There is no doubt Lee Grafton runs a great program there).  

Someone else posted that there wasn't a good turnout for Esmark's free skate, but I am not able to confirm that personally.  

Vengeance AAA tryouts start Monday the 15th.  I know families there, and it is a solid team with a lot of returning players.  I know of quite a few other players who are trying to crack that lineup, though.  This team seems to be a target of a lot of talented players.

Huskies (no level designation, so assume A/possibly AA) start Tuesday the 16th.  Huskies are a question mark because last year's tryouts went from "AA," to "let's try to cobble together an A team," to scrapping the whole thing.  To be fair, that was last year, it was the first year of a major expansion, and they may have ironed out the kinks.

Predators (AA/A) start 4/18.  Again, no disrespect to the Predators organization... I simply don't know anyone there to share information.

So lots of overlap there the first weekend.  Families are going to have to choose one (or start one and switch to possibly one other if things don't look good).

Next weekend North Pittsburgh (A through AA) start tryouts on 4/20.  This is NP's normal tryout process.  It is just earlier this year.  Not much to share that we all don't already know (nothing good, nothing bad... they're just probably the largest program in the area, so everyone knows them).

The Vengeance 16U NB (AA) team tryouts start 4/21.  Being that this is the Renegades conversion, I don't have much information on this one (or the regular Vengeance/Renegades tryouts below).  All I know is what others post here, and what I know from returning families (whose players ARE returning).  There seems to be a big flap about the cost this season, though.

Iceman (AA/AAA independent) and Aviators '08 BY start 4/22.  The Icemen were a pretty solid team last year, and families I know there are planning on returning.  They may pick up kids who were squeezed by the overlapping tryouts, but they are solid on their own.  The knock on this -- and other similar programs -- is the independent schedule.  You either like it or you don't.  

The Aviators are puzzling to me -- no disrespect meant -- because they played A Major Gold last year as a mixed-year team, and they lost 100% of their '08s from the previous season, so I don't know how they will have the numbers to form an '08 BY team (which are usually higher-level... you don't usually see an A-level BY team).  At any rate, they are an option for families looking to play elsewhere, and they are now playing at McKnight Arena.

Regular Vengeance 16U (A) start 4/25.  As stated above, I have heard very little regarding the Vengeance.  A-level Renegades players from last season -- and some others -- have told me they plan on trying out there, but I am not much help past that.

Yetis (A/AA) start 4/26.  I know multiple families from last year's team, and they were a higher-performing A Major Black team, but were (impressively) almost all '08s.  So the Yetis have them advertised as National Bound/AA this upcoming season, depending on who comes back and who joins the mix.  Any AA-level talent that got squeezed by the tryout jumble could land here if they want to stick with a PAHL schedule.  They're the last tryout of the season, so any higher-level players who don't yet have a home will still have a strong option.

I hope this helps folks!

Just as an FYI, the Yetis are looking to field a 16U National Bound team and are having two free pre-tryout sessions to any '08 or '09 skaters.  Those dates are:

2:30p - 3:50p on Sunday 4/21

8:30p - 9:50p on Tuesday 4/23

The link to the Google form to sign up is HERE.

On a side note, there is no overlap because they have the last tryouts locally (4/26 to 4/28).

And I am just sharing this.  Not looking to debate the organization, location, dates, coaches, etc.  If you or someone you know can use it, great.  If not, great.

Just as an FYI, the Yetis are looking to field a 16U National Bound team and are having two free pre-tryout sessions to any '08 or '09 skaters.  Those dates are:

2:30p - 3:50p on Sunday 4/21

8:30p - 9:50p on Tuesday 4/23

The link to the Google form to sign up is HERE.

On a side note, there is no overlap because they have the last tryouts locally (4/26 to 4/28).

And I am just sharing this.  Not looking to debate the organization, location, dates, coaches, etc.  If you or someone you know can use it, great.  If not, great.

Some of those 16U AA teams are not in that top bracket because of arrogance.  I know some of the coaches, and they are doing the "are we A Major Black or AA" dance, and letting the scrimmage and placement results figure that out for them.  They've been playing teams in the lower brackets for a feel, and have been honest about that.  I know one of the teams in the "AA" bracket lost to a team in the second bracket by three goals this past week, and they were cool/genuine about it.

On the flip side of that coin, I see some teams in lower brackets who sold themselves as AA programs during the tryout season.  Now THAT'S something I have a problem with.  If you sell yourself as an A Major team, and are wondering if you might be AA, great.  If you sell yourself as a AA team, then go A Major... that's just crappy.

1 hour ago, Lifelongbender said:

The biggest issue I have ever had with the Frozen Pond is actually the low ceiling, of all things. Can't really do an old-fashioned Murphy dump there.

Good point.  I wonder if that is why it seems so much darker in there.

My kids used to play there, and the only real complaint I ever had was the lighting.  I don’t know why, but it always seems dim/darker in there.  

I think it may be due to the fact the ceiling isn’t white like other rinks.  Not sure, though.

They paved the lot nicely, and the steps everyone complains about are actually a cool, distinctive feature (except when they are icy!  Ha ha).

2 hours ago, zam said:

So in a non-checking middle school game you saw a A/AA player perform better than a AAA player?  And from that experience you decided that AAA player wasn't worthy of attending Mid Am camp?

No.  I saw more than one '08 A Major and AA level kid outplay some kids on that list at the Varsity and JV level, and I saw '09 AA players outskate and dupe kids that made their list.

I am not saying someone isn't worthy, I am not putting anyone down, and as I mentioned I really don't care.  I am saying that it's more of the same old "this kid is better than someone else" position that says other kids who aren't invited (or don't care if they are invited) are somehow inferior, even if they play as well or better than the kids who are selected.

If we are praising those kids who are selected, what does that say about the system when kids who aren't even considered shut them down during a JV game (as an example)?  Catch my drift?

I don't know much about this, and really don't care to.  What I will tell you is that I know some kids on those lists who were made to look stupid against some A Major and AA kids when they played against each other at Varsity/JV/Middle School this past season.

I saw the shaming occur live with my own eyes, so that makes me question the whole process/purpose.

I know the Huskies are still taking players if you are close to there.

Last I heard they were looking for 14U and 16U kids.

I also know that the Yetis, Badgers, and NP just finished tryouts at 14U, so they may be looking, too.  Just can't say for sure.  NP probably not since they get a boatload at tryouts and rarely hold supplementals.

16U should still be going on.

8 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Tryout season has been made way more difficult than it needs to be. 

 

Exactly.  

It's funny that we are all having productive discussions here, with each of us offering suggestions -- right or wrong -- as to what the problem may be.  The more I read, however, the more I feel it's just a combination of everything.  It's not just one reason.

You guys are saying eleven declines is abnormal, but I know of at least three teams that had eight declines or more.  I honestly don't know why.  I agree that you normally see one or two declines on teams.  We are seeing crazy declines, movement like we've never seen, and supplementals after supplementals because of it.

I can say it's sad, though, because it's the good kids and their families who ultimately suffer.

All good points folks, and totally valid.  

I enjoyed watching tryouts, never once yelled at any of my kids, and never accosted/yelled at any evaluators.  So my take was coming from that perspective.  I totally see where you all are coming from, though, and appreciate it.

After watching this tryout season debacle from so many angles and age groups, I have what I think may be a HUGE reason behind the craziness:

A few years ago only a couple organizations -- mainly AAA -- had CLOSED TRYOUTS.  Now everyone closes tryouts, and I think THAT is a large part of the problem (at least at the A-level).

I get the reasoning behind it:  "We don't want to deal with the parents saying 'my Bobby was better than that other kid who was selected!', so let's keep the parents out."

BUT think of it from the other perspective:  If parents can't see in that rink, they are blindly following either the word of an organization that will say anything to keep their kids, or their kid themself (and we know how objective THEY are).  The parents don't know how many players actually tried out, they don't know the skill level of the kids who tried out, and they are always second-guessing themselves. And yes, A-level parents, too.

So no one knows if they are safe, and keep moving on.  Everything is fluid, and parents are glad to eat a commitment fee to ensure their player is on a solid team.

My guess is that there are still a lot of orphans out there, so I agree with the poster who said it may make sense to start a thread for orphan players looking for homes.  I still get contacted (just got two more today) from panicked parents asking me if I knew where their kid could play.

In my opinion, closed tryouts are freaking stupid to the Nth degree.  If you are who you say you are, what do you have to hide?

Question:  I didn't pay close enough attention over the years, but does anyone else have an idea how many AAA/AA programs there are now compared to five, ten, or twenty years ago?

My gut feeling is that there are a lot more, but I am not sure.

Zam, you're right, and I think we need to make a distinction that what we are saying is not to be applied to every player.  Yes, there are kids who want to play AAA/AA for that extra level of competitiveness.  But what happens when those kids who are "just as happy skipping practices to play basketball or video games" are on the same team as that ultra-competitive kid?  The same thing you described that happens at the A-level.

That's why I made the point about supplementals at the AAA/AA levels.  Who are they getting?

So I feel the "bashing" we hear on this board isn't for every player playing at those levels.  It's for the parents and the programs that water down everything in the area by pumping up kids who would be better served staying at the lower levels and properly developing.

I'd rather not name names.  I will tell you that just off the top of my head I know of FIVE programs that accepted lesser talent to fill out AAA/AA teams.

AAA and AA supplementals?

And I say "I know" because I know the players, and their parents told me where they ended up.

1 hour ago, TeamRamRod said:

I think a handful of the Viper Stars players are on the newly formed 09 AA Aviators team.  I also heard of one who made Iceman.  I think it's great that good players are choosing to stay on Tier 2 teams rather than play on some of these 'AAA' teams.  It will make for an exciting and competitive year for Tier 2.

It would be exciting IF those Tier 2 teams are really Tier 2 teams.  Based off of what I saw, I seriously doubt that.  I personally know some kids who I would honestly assess as A Minor Black or maybe A Major White players who made "AA" teams.

I think in five years there won't be anymore A-level hockey.  Kids will go straight from B to AA so parents can (pay to) gloat about how wonderful their kid is, and teams will be glad to take their money to apply that label.  I used to LOVE it when my A Major kids would go to a summer pick-up game, and other parents would rave about their AAA/AA player and how great their team would be.  Then my "inferior" kids would go out there and make them look stupid.  AND... once the season started, my kids would be out there on regular shifts in all phases of the game, and their kids would sit on the bench.

Sorry if I sound salty.  This tryout season really has my head ready to explode from the sheer insanity.  As someone who loves the game of hockey, I just don't get it.

I don't know of any '07 BY supplementals, but I do know that NP (as Saucy said), Badgers, and the Yetis still have tryouts within the next week.

1 hour ago, zam said:

Very very few players/families are loyal to a particular organization long term.  Players and organizations look out for their own interests. The best kids are generally always going to leave for better opportunities (and you can't blame them).  And the weakest kids get cut. (unless there's some nepotism or cronyism) This is true for House League all the way through Juniors and Professional.  The players thatv do stay within an organization long term are typically there because their are happy with their placement and don't have better opportunities. Or because of some other self interest, like it's close to their house, they aren't willing to increase the time and financial commitment to the sport and so on. 
 

 

Zam, I agree with part, and disagree with part.  

I think there are a good number of players/families who are either loyal or who WANT to stay loyal.  But there are other families/players who do look out for their own interests.  Those are the kids who leave teams in shambles, and then the loyal families have to scramble to find homes.  I see that every year.

That's why I am no longer critical of families who have been at five different organizations, etc.  Anymore you aren't able to tell if it is the family's fault or just circumstances (even five-plus times).

It's really, really sad.

I also just heard that the Huskies '08 BY team is holding supplementals next Sunday at 10:00am.  They have information on the Pittsburgh Ice Arena page.

And every time you hear of multiple supplementals in the same area, do you ever think "why don't they just combine teams?", or is that just me?  Ha ha.