Rico

Well I think you can come here and talk some s***... every now and again have productive convo, voice your concerns or the reality you know... without fear that anyone from organizations cares enough to ostracize you. Org’s know things aren’t perfect. 

I think the declining participation is more a result of the fact that this board has turned into just constant whining about what PPE is up to...  from people seemingly outside the program. 

Playing above their skill set... correct. I am deeply sorry and I put forth my utmost sincere apologies for using the word “means” incorrectly. I now see the mass confusion it caused and while it will take time for all of us to heal... I have taken away a very valuable lesson and I will be better next time. 

With that said, dazedandconfused has about 5 different usernames he regularly uses. The hilarity ensuing when he ends up having conversations with himself in an attempt to further his campaign narrative. Has anyone ever had 4-5 usernames come out of the woodwork to dispute you... That’s Mr.Complex above.

Theres definitely some heated discussions here, and some of us, admittedly can be a little douchey at times. My bad, I’m passionate about the sport. Nothing personal. 

But everyone should really take note that there aren’t nearly as many unique IP’s around here as the username count suggests. So while I’m not an English scholar, I do have a career/expertise in IT and I can tell you all about some of the ? ‘s on here who are acting above their means...

Just now, HockeyDad23 said:

Yes. You guys all know a lot. It was a compliment. 

Oh my bad, thanks chief. 

13 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

Rico Im not sure what ur deal is. The is the second time you have gotten confrontational on the thread I started. My family is new to the area and new to hockey. I came here trying to look for advice and have a general conversation to understand hockey, politics, and the “how to prepare my kids.” For the most part it has been a positive experience. Then you spew garbage out of your mouth and make accusations.  Not everyone is as knowledgeable as you.  

And if someone says “play above their means” how am i supposed to know if I like penises or not? Maybe Im just not intelligent. 

Who goes on a message board asking for advice, gets it, then turns around and acts like the people responding are know it alls or being condescending? 

You asked about kids playing above their means, I responded to clarify, you responded with a smartass post talking about how some of us have our fingers on the pulse etc., so you got called out. 

Weirdo. 

6 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

Aha I gotcha. I didnt know that. Very interesting. So america in general is short of aaa talent. Wow. Learn a lot. You guys all have your finger on the pulse

 Says the guy trying to stir things up, by way of playing dumb on a message board. Who do you think you’re kidding?

Anyway, yes, outside of the major hockey markets I mentioned (where a lot of the top athletes are playing hockey)... it is very hit or miss, often miss, in regards to teams being able to fill a roster with kids who are best suited to play at whatever level they are trying out at. 

Hockey, in most smaller cities and lukewarm markets is still the 3rd or 4th sport of choice. 

5 hours ago, HockeyDad23 said:

What did you guys means kids that make PPE playing above their means?

I wasn’t even alluding to PPE or one organization in particular. There are kids in the majority of organizations across America who are playing above their means. Why? Because most cities (aside from CHI, BOS,DET) don’t have the participation numbers to fill out rosters with kids who are legitimately AAA, AA players. 

Some people on this board like to take things out of context, and spin it towards their anti-PPE agenda. 

9 hours ago, HockeyDad23 said:

Ok

Not sure if you took that the wrong way, given the short response. It just is what it is, if the organization makes the parents purchase rainbow helmets, they aren’t going to make those same set of parents come up with a neutral colored helmet for 3-5 try out sessions. 

In my opinion, the colors, stickers, jerseys, shells etc are something the parents put way more thought into than evaluators. It ultimately comes down to what the kid can do on the ice. There are kids who are playing beneath what they’re capable of, and don’t have any fancy stickers to show for it. There are also kids who are playing at a level way beyond their means and have all the fancy swag to show for it. 

Evaluators, most of them, know this reality. I don’t think it’s something to put a lot of thought into, especially at legitimate AAA organizations. 

No organization is going to tell parents to go out and spend $200 on a black helmet just for tryouts (if their org wears something other than black or white).

You do not need to be 6’2 to play college hockey. There are 5’11 - 6’0 goaltenders in the NHL right now, meanwhile NCAA hockey. 

With that said, the smaller goalies usually possesses top tier athleticism and reaction time. One of those can be improved, the other is genetic. 

I think the most important thing when looking for a place for your goalie to play is coaching. Will the goalie get access to goalie specific training or is he going be there for target practice, for his teammates? 

AAA hockey for a goalie is not the end all be all at the younger ages. I would place quality of ice time and instruction way ahead on the list of priorities and if that’s an AAA program great, if it’s an AA program great. 

50 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Also, if the desire is to improve skills, dollar for dollar, the best money spent is on private lessons with someone good over the summer. And that is tricky, because the ones who are good are some times picky about who they will work with. They want a kid with natural athletic ability who wants to be there and will work. If Mom and Dad are driving the bus, there won't be gains for the time and money spent.

I work with a woman who has a high schooler who will be division one for baseball. He has had the same private coach his whole life. Other parents ask this coach to make their kid like my friend's child. The coach tells them he can't do that. He then describes what the kid has done on his own his whole life to get better, and it involves lots of reps and training on his own time. There are few kids willing to put in that kind of work on their own.

I see the miserable kids in the early am  before school at the rink waiting for their privates, obviously not wanting to be there. Some of them are wearing Pens Elite stuff. I think, what a waste. 

The elite programs don't want you to know this. They are happy to take your money while telling you they will make your child better. It's a two way street, though. Your kid has also be an athlete, and have the passion.

Take a hard look at your child. Be honest with yourself before getting on the 'elite' bus. Who is driving that bus? If it is you, both you, your child and your pocket book are going to be so much happier in the long run if you do not get on.

Great post, but this mainly applies to the older ages. You’re going to get a range of emotions and mixed signals from a young kid, none of which mean you should throw in the towel on hockey, or AAA hockey. Nor do I think you (in general) can judge a Pens kid, or any kid, who doesn’t want to be at the rink at 5am. I guarantee 10 year old Sidney Crosby probably didn’t want to get up at 4:30 in the AM to go practice, then go to school. 

There are people who can’t wait to get to their jobs, but getting out of bed to get there is a project. 

18 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

Yikes. I may just save all my travel try out money. I never realized all these programs were fixed and so political.  I assumed teams “reset” each year.  But I can see how the kids that played for a team last year move to the next age group and get preferential treatment having been in the program.

I didnt expect this stuff till HS. Not at such a young age. Oh well ?

The Pens are not political. With all due respect to said individuals, I won’t name names but there have been some heavy hitters with kids trying out, in the program.....Execs, pro’s, former pro’s and I can’t name one single case where a kid was put on a team, put on a team he/she didn’t belong on due to outside influences.

16 minutes ago, TheZapruderTape said:

Not trying to bust balls here Moj, but there seems to be a substantial amount of half truths and myths flying out of the Vengeance camp that should be at least explored and expanded. 

You guys float this idea that you’re allowing your team to be “athletes”. Like if you play for any other organizations, somehow your kid isn’t allowed to play other sports. Do you comprehend how ridiculous that sounds? My kid is at PPE. And he enjoys a robust selection of sports aside from hockey. Kids on the team play soccer, lacrosse, baseball, golf, basketball, and yes even football both tackle and flag. They also wrestle and do martial arts. One kid competes in youth triathlons for Christ’s sake. I know kids on North Pittsburgh, SHAHA, The Preds, Butler Valley and other organizations as well. Amazingly, most of them also play multiple sports and are good athletes. The Vengeance have not cornered the market on 10 and 11 year old athletes by any means. It’s just a tired and ridiculous argument that frankly has been your teams biggest commercial and it’s just a misinformed exaggeration to try and differentiate yourselves from PPE and other programs. 

As far as parents having “input” into scheduling and what not......that honestly sounds like what has been called the “anabolic” parent mentality on these boards. Parents who also are too close to the coach or the director of the program. Parents who can’t get out of the way and let the coach do their job. These same type of parents who write line combos on napkins and get in the ear of the coach. It actually sounds nightmarish, at least for me. I could be crazy. I just want to sit there in the stands and watch my kid play hockey. But to each his own. So what happens if the parent group on your team is split 60-40 about going to a tourney? Is there an official vote? How would that work? And what if that 40 percent happen to be the parents with the most power and influence in the organization? I guess the trip is booked huh? And it sounds like your schedule is a shifting sea of uncertainty. You said you “added” stuff at the end of the year. I personally know three parents on the Vengeance that we’re livid that it became so much travel after they were sold the idea that it was limited travel. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. 

As far as the PPE going to Boston last year, didn’t you guys go to Chicago?? The answer is yes. Pretty much a wash. We knew about the Boston trip from day one. We know our entire travel schedule up front. Like it or hate it, the parents aren’t deceived or misled. We know exactly what we are signing up for. And this isn’t a commercial for PPE. There are many great options out there for youth hockey. PPE is definitely not for everyone and it has its flaws and warts. It’s expensive. It’s a big political organization. But we’re not baited and switched. 

The Vengeance parents I know say that there is an inside joke on that team. The joke is......”our fundraiser is our tryout”. I’ve heard that from these parents multiple times. The joke being that the team is pretty much set. Most of the kids on the team are winked and handshook in.....and that the tryout fee is kind of laughed at because no average “outsider” has any chance of making the team. Honestly, your line up is set. The parents are juiced in by reputation and there is little player movement. These tryouts are just to pad the income line. I can say that there have been minimum 3-6 player changes on the 08, 07, 06, and 05 PPE teams each year. 

Finally, as far as that 3-1 game is concerned, nobody gives a crap honestly. But it lives on in your camp as some watershed moment. That the teams were even. And this crap about shot totals. Blah blah blah. It was a meaningless youth game in the middle of the season. The only stat that matters isn’t how many shots were taken.....it matters how many went in. Any way you analyze it or justify it, it was a loss for the Vengeance. But truly nobody outside Harnarville cares at this point. Move onward and upward.

You guys have great kids and a good team. Just please stop trying to sell your team philosophy as ground breaking and innovative. It’s been done on virtually every birth year for decades. And that’s ok. Best of luck. 

You sound scared... 

31 minutes ago, Hoomie said:

What is a coaches jacket?  Didn't know there was a special jacket for youth hockey coaches. 

Most coaches have jackets on, on the ice. 

8 minutes ago, Rico said:

I’ve been to multiple youth sport games over the years and it’s definitely amplified in hockey more so than other sports. 

You have isolated incidents in other sports, like soccer, baseball, football but those games largely come and go without much fuss. 

When was the last time you watched a youth hockey game, in full, and didn’t hear someone crying in the stands? 

I think hockey parents feel safer because there’s multiple layers of separation between an ice hockey referee and a parent. Refs are on skates, on a sheet of ice, surrounded by a bowl of boards. It’s not as intimidating to the average human to scream insults at another human being when sub-consciously they know that the other human poses little to no threat. 

Also, western PA hockey parents are some of the worst I’ve seen. A large portion of it is, in my opinion, the lack of parents past participation in the sport. They simply do not understand or can not accept that what goes on on the ice is run of the mill, ordinary shit that’s part of a collision sport. 

This does not happen in traditional hockey markets AS MUCH, where kids are being raised by people who played the game. WHERE SAID PARENTS are desensitized and much more tolerant having been in the same position their kids are in. 

Again, I feel for the men and women who have to ref these games while listening to the onslaught of verbal abuse that these organizations tolerate from their parents/customers. 

I’ve been to multiple youth sport games over the years and it’s definitely amplified in hockey more so than other sports. 

You have isolated incidents in other sports, like soccer, baseball, football but those games largely come and go without much fuss. 

When was the last time you watched a youth hockey game, in full, and didn’t hear someone crying in the stands? 

I think hockey parents feel safer because there’s multiple layers of separation between an ice hockey referee and a parent. Refs are on skates, on a sheet of ice, surrounded by a bowl of boards. It’s not as intimidating to the average human to scream insults at another human being when sub-consciously they know that the other human poses little to no threat. 

Also, western PA hockey parents are some of the worst I’ve seen. A large portion of it is, in my opinion, the lack of parents past participation in the sport. They simply do not understand or can not accept that what goes on on the ice is run of the mill, ordinary shit that’s part of a collision sport. 

This does not happen in traditional hockey markets AS MUCH, where kids are being raised by people who played the game. WHERE SAID PARENTS are desensitized and much more tolerant having been in the same position their kids are in. 

Again, I fee for the man and women who have to ref these games while listening to these turds. 

So this officiating thing is very comparable to their current climate surrounding law enforcement. 

You have a minority of people who ruin it for the masses. Then blanket labels start getting thrown around. 

Here is reality as I see it. Most referees are trying to do their job adequately and leave. Are they thick skinned and sometimes aloof? Absolutely, they had to be. Common sense tells you that. 

The amount of absolute nonsense these guys have to put up with is not even worth the job in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, they can’t get through a two minute sequence of the game without some parent from either team yelling about something. Or a coach throwing a temper tantrum. 

It should be widely acknowledged, during the famed parent meetings at the beginning of the season, that it is not a referees job to call every single infraction that happens on the ice. You may not understand it, but that’s reality. 

These women and men are there to moderate a collision sport that moves a lot faster than the average person can process it. 

Yes they will be wrong sometimes not nearly, even remotely as close as the vitriol from the stands indicates. 

On 2/4/2019 at 12:33 PM, rock said:

they may not be sent to NCAA but they are used in placements and evaluations of kids for peewee rankings and placements.. so yeah they should be as correct as possible.. your other points are very valid.. However the officiating the past few years has been atrocious.. human or not.. they need to do a better job or at the min not be so 1 sided in there calls / non calls every game. its not difficult to call a fair game.  some of them don't even bother to leave the neutral zone, they are never in position when calling a goal or no goal, won't get out of the way when a puck is coming at them and won't even bother explaining calls to the coaches.. so most of the harassment is self inflicted. 

Points are used in placements for kids? Elaborate? What does an individual child’s point total have to do with rankings? 

14 hours ago, Questions21 said:

Either way officiating has gone down hill. I witnessed 2 different squirt games/teams today with the same 2 officials and in the 1 game they called 19 minor penalties and 1 10min and then in the other they called 15minor penalties. They actually had these kids crying in the box because they had no idea what they did. 

My sons team had an experience last weekend with refs where they were putting their arms up as to call a penalty a couple of times and then both teams changed positions a couple of times and then they didn't call anything. There was a time from both teams goalies that they went to leave the ice and almost let up a goal because they didn't realize that there was no penalty. 

I know the game can be fast, but for them to even butcher who scored goals sometimes when there are 2 of them out there is nuts. They were giving goals and assists to kids that were not even on the ice or even numbers on the team. 

Yes, because those squirt score sheets get sent straight to NCAA scouting departments. Who cares. 

The other stuff is valid, if that’s how it played out. With that said, does anyone really think the parents ESPECIALLY in western PA really help the situation? These guys can’t get through a 2 minute sequence of officiating without being harassed by a parent. For all the things PAHL and other AAA organizations are uptight about... you would think deterring your parents from acting like chimpanzees in the stands would be a priority. 

Or at the very least, educate the parents that a referee is a human being and not some extraterrestrial intelligent life that’s going to see/catch every single infraction on the ice. 

Furthermore, if these guys called everything they did see... you wouldn’t have a hockey game left to play. It’s about managing a game not calling every single thing that happens on the ice. 

What are you even talking about.. weirdo..

I haven’t posted in this thread because I’m done with the lack of reading comprehension amongst some people here. I’ve repeatedly said that the squirt talk is cool. 

I just pointed out the delusion, in which these Dad’s (and some mother’s) think their kid is “special” due to being the “best” in mites, squirts etc. People get sensitive when they’re told that nothing is guaranteed until you see what puberty and checking result in. 

GET MY LAPTOP JANET AND DAMNIT MICHEAL GET ME A DICTIONARY, these lack of self aware responses aren’t going to write themselves. 

Jermaine, you better start producing goals boy. Repeat after me I AM UNIQUE (smack) I AM UNIQUE (smack). 

Jermiane... get down here right now. 

(Jermaine trembles down the stairs)... “yes father” 

Jermaine you mean to tell me that you let that other kid on your team get more points than you this season? 

(Jermaine) No father, he’s cheating. He cherry picks and his parents get him lessons with a Lebonese figure skating guru. I’m the best squirt daddy I am unique. 

I had enough of your excuses boy... you and these old mean curs on the local message board are going to learn today. TITO go get me a switch!! 

If you’re feeling inadequate due to a message board, this entire tirade you are throwing makes complete sense. 

I’ve said numerous times that nobody here is discouraging talk about hockey at the lower levels. It’s all good. 

When the conversation starts turning ridiculous, which not only myself the Oracle, but about 10 other people have pointed out in this thread... then people chime in. You spending two hours writing up your self perceived clever responses doesn’t change the fact that the majority of people here keep telling you the same thing: Talk squirt hockey all you want. Maybe make a separate thread for it, but talk it all you want. Please just do so without the pissing contest, because at the end of the day squirt hockey isn’t really that relevant. Squirt development, sure. Squirt rankings, personal status. No. I understand that’s not what guys like you don’t want to hear... which leads me to my next point. 

The only people feeling bad about their time spent on the Western PA Hockey Forum are the people who live vicariously through their children’s self-proclaimed “unique” squirt accomplishments and don’t want to hear anything objective to that sweet sweet validation they get from it. This validation is like heroin to them, if they don’t get it they lose their minds. Case and point above.

Not only have I said anything is possible for anyone. Pointed out that many Pittsburgh kids have gone on to have success, but I’ve said encouraging things up soaking it up, enjoying it, supporting your kid and doing it all out of a love for the sport. 

I don’t need impart my wisdom on anyone. I’m simply taking part in a conversation. One in which my contributions have severely touched a nerve with the Joe Jackson’s of the youth hockey world. 

Again, no one is discouraging talk about any specific level of hockey. The only thing that is being discouraged is the pretentious rhetoric that’s been prevelant amongst the “squirt” talk here.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the obsessiveness on dissecting squirt talent and/or games is just disturbing. 

In regards to being unique, all I can say is why don’t you just say you’re sorry for being so misinformed instead of creating more usernames. 

54 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

Only thing I would add is that I have seen a lot of squirt parents who seriously think their kid is going to the pros

Anything is possible for anyone. 

There are kids from Pittsburgh who made it. There are more who got near it. However, you are delusional if you’re making these assertions when your kid is a mite/squirt/peewee. 

Every birthyear has great players, yet in every birthyear you will find a subset of parents who don’t seem to understand that every birthyear has great players, the one before them, the one after them, the one 5 years down the road. These are the same ones who get on message boards talking about their “unique experience” in squirt hockey. 

Additionally, this board is meant to be resourceful. I think a number of us who have been around know what a cancer the squirt discussion turns into. If the old board were still in use, you would have 10+ years of content to prove that point. Same shit, different group of squirt parents. I know you think you’re unique but your emotional output sounds very familiar. 

Because it does. It never stays analytic and turns into a pissing contest. So I think people who use the board for its intended purpose to try to check others who seem to be leading the discussion down that road and it’s pretty easy to halt the brakes when it comes to little kid hockey. 

So nobody is sniping your squirt discussion, until it turns stupid and emotional.