Corsi

On 10/29/2022 at 10:26 PM, Saucey said:

How are parents new to the sport supposed to do this? I don't disagree in theory.

I have said for years, that education should start at the "Learn to Play" level and continue through 8U and 10U.  I was fortunate enough to grow up around the game, and understand how things work, so my son had a point of reference as far as those things worked.  With some many organizations and chances for people to make money, there's more and more people who will just tell parents what they want to hear in order to get the player to commit to playing there and the parents commit to writing the check that goes with that commitment.    

With the way that the game is going now, if you are playing at a high level, you are going to be seen.  Please know, by "seen" I mean, somebody is going to look at you as a player and say, "this kid can play" and if the player is an upgrade, they will get offers to play at a different program.  If the player is extremely talented and skilled with a good work ethic, they will get opportunities to play at a higher level regardless of what team they are playing on.  I would by lying if I said that it didn't help to play on a team like PPE who plays exclusively vs. "high ranked teams" in events that are scouted.  Keep in mind, hockey is a small world, and within most "AAA" associations, coaches all have some connections, yes some might be better connected than others, but all have some connections.  

17 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

Would you get the best kids?

Or would you get the ones whom are willing to pay for all "the extra" like the Coaches personal gym and/or private lessons?

Yes, I feel like you would get the "best kids".  I would think that most of those kids are already getting quality coaching/development and doing the lessons/skills stuff on some level.  The difference is that the kids in the South Hills wouldn't be traveling all the way to Cranberry or New Ken anymore, assuming you could get Lebo, Preds, and SHAHA all to "play nice together".  I feel like the consensus on this conversation has been that the South Hills has enough talent to support a "AAA" program which could be successful in that area if those organizations worked together to build it and there was ice available for each BY team.  

10 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Very interesting observations. Seems like a number of those things are correctable and that could help some, but location still seems to be the biggest issue. People are staying in the south hills more and more and playing in "lesser" organizations than Esmark. To me that's the main reason why Preds and SHAHA are starting to consistently put together better teams than Esmark. 

100% true from what I've heard from parents both at Preds and SHAHA.  According to some parents, their players have been asked to come to Esmark, but the parents wouldn't consider it because of the location of the rink.  I feel like that makes perfect sense, why make that drive if the level of play, and development are all equal when you can do it and only have to drive 15-20 minutes if you are already in the South Hills.  In a "perfect world", Preds and SHAHA would come together and form a South Hills based "AAA" program, which could compete with anyone in the area based off of how much talent is already present in that area of the city.  

1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Is this something new for AHF? Interesting rationale. Allows teams to play an unbalanced schedule to minimize travel or even a partial season to supplement another league. This "Krach" rating seems to balance things out when it comes time for playoff seeding. I've bashed Black Bear on this forum quite a bit but this is actually interesting.

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/krachratings/

The EJEPL has been using this for formula for while.  I do find it interesting that when Black Bear started buying rinks and founded the AHF that those teams that left the EJEPL for AHF (Ashburn, etc) brought this formula for playoff seeding with them.  

On 10/16/2022 at 11:09 PM, Gina M said:

My son is on one of the AAA teams.  It is all politics.  We have one boy on our team that gets extended play due to his family being in the organization for years.  He is not the next Sydney Crosby.  He is arrogant and treats the other teammates poorly.  However, he does nothing wrong.  Definitely not fair.  Not sure AAA is worth the money.

My question is what age level is your son playing at?  With the younger groups, AAA is worth the money but only if they are getting the necessary skills development and coaching.  I very rarely was ever concerned about ice time until my son was at 15U and older.  I would argue that up until they are 14 the focus should be on skill development and being a good teammate.  

Back to the BB/AHF discussion.  Those teams will still be able to do their PAHL schedule, and just schedule around the AHF "Showcase Weekends", which will at least now take place locally.  While it might cost more money in fees, it might not be a bad way for some of these teams to not have to travel to Buffalo/Detroit/Cleveland to get games with out of town teams.  I'm going to assume that the savings in travel/hotels/food should be able to balance out the additional fees associated with the AHF.  My only caveat with that would be that they need to do it like some of the tournaments currently do and when building the schedule, they work to keep teams from the same city from playing each other since there is a chance that they will see them during other parts of the year at some point.  

2 hours ago, Wes said:

We were there for a PIHL playoff game ~7-8 years ago, and literally I had to stand at the top of the rink with half my body outside the door, the exhaust stench was so bad from the zamboni used at the time.  Never smelled a worse condition inside a rink than that.

 

You must have never experienced the old Neville Ice Arena on the South Side.  Legitimately, had fans and players pass out from the fumes there.  There's a reason why it isn't there anymore.

The issue I would have with some of this is what happens when a player from a smaller organization "outgrows" that organization?  Should a "AA/AAA" level player be forced to stay and play at a lower level that is inappropriate for their skills, or should that player be allowed to "shop" for an organization/team that fits their needs better?  I get the desire to keep the shopping to a minimum, but I really don't see how any of the ideas being thrown around would work due to the number of rinks we have in the area, as well as the wide gap we have in organization sizes.  

I agree...  I coached for teams in the past where it was an expectation that the coach have a pre-season/mid-season/end-of-season meetings with each player just to let them know what was going on and where the coaches wanted them to focus as far as skills go.  I have also had parents/players that asked for the feedback.  If it wasn't outright solicited, I didn't volunteer it unless it was an instance where the player had to be sit down during a game because of something that had been addressed multiple times before, when that happened I felt obligated to let the player and parents know why it happened and what needs to change to keep it from happening again.

Saucey, in past posts, I've brought up the importance of having coaches/evaluators that are honest with players and parents.  I personally have always tried to do that when I was involved with coaching.  What coaches and organizations run into now are parents only see their player through "rose colored glasses", so the minute you are critical of someone's play the parent and player get defensive and then they go "organization shopping" for a coach/organization that is going to simply "tell them what they want to hear" as a way to be sure they are going to bring in the fees/dues all parents pay.

My son played AAA hockey at an older age, but the best coach he had was at AA when he was 12yrs old and told him what his strengths and weaknesses were and told him what he needed to do to play up at the "next level".  I don't think it was easy for my son to hear, but it opened his eyes up and he worked, focusing on those areas that he was deficient in.

13 hours ago, Saucey said:

There is no such zone, I guess. I purposely sought out some really low level stuff, thinking no one will take that too seriously and I can't believe the behavior. ?

Saucey, that is what most people think, but the "low level stuff" have some of the worst parent behavior.  In my experience, it also has some of the most out control players, from a behavior standpoint as well.  I've always chalked it up to the parents and players at "higher levels", tend to have more time and money invested in it and have normally been invested for a longer period of time so the expectations are usually different.  I also feel like the "higher level" players often have a parent that has some level of playing experience, along with better coaching.  

Brian Hartman - TJ to Niagara

Mark Scally - Moon to PSU (ACHA) to AHL/ECHL

CJ Severyn - Beaver to USDP to OSU to Calgary draft pick to AHL/ECHL

My point with the education piece is that it doesn't need to be something that is a "money grab" or anything along those lines.  What it needs to be is people/coaches being honest with parents and kids and telling them what lies ahead of them and what the actual path looks like.  I've run across too many parents who think their kid is the next Gretzky or Crosby because he's lighting it up at PAHL A Minor, and when they see even what people on this board would call a "faux AAA" team play in that same age group it's like a lightbulb going on.  People need to understand that there are levels and at every level there are other rungs to the ladder.  I agree, hockey really isn't all that complicated as long as you have some points of reference and know what you are looking at.  The issue, at least in my opinion, are parents who come in because their kid wants to do it, but doesn't really have any background to what "it" is.  These are also the parents that are probably most likely to get sucked in by coaches charging money or teams charging money because they don't know what the process looks like.

I have been involved with youth hockey in some way for close to 40 years.  Crazy parents are not a new thing to hockey.  There are just as many crazy parents in other sports than there are in hockey.  The complaint with parents at a younger age is that they don't have the perspective of having watched for years and they seem to assume that the game revolves around their child and that their child should be playing major junior at 12 and in the NHL by 16.  I've harped on it over and over again in different threads on this board, but we NEED better education for both players and parents about what the journey through hockey actually looks like.  The problem will be that parents do not like to hear the truth when it comes to their child.  

On 6/1/2022 at 1:55 PM, twoboys said:

Looking only at my one son's birth year, the kid who was best player entering squirts is still now the best player in midgets.  Frankly, most of the kids who made the PPE gold team out of squirts are still very good players.  Some are still at PPE, some at Esmark and some at Vengeance.  It is really hard for an unathletic 9 year old to make the PPE Gold team.  For the most part, it is the kids who were on the black team that have become PAHL players.   

I don't think you realize just how many of the younger AAA kids are actually doing the work.  Maybe some AA kids don't do anything extra but most of the AAA kids are definitely doing something extra.  Walk into any rink and you will be amazed how many AAA kids are doing lessons.  Sometimes, a couple of times a week.  If the younger kids drop to AA from AAA it usually isn't because they don't have a work ethic.  

The extra work is automatic when you are playing at the AAA level.  The separation point though are the kids that put in the extra work on their own vs. the kids that put in the extra work only when it is a "team" type of event (off ice training, etc).  I think what really helps with kids between the ages of 10-13 is to have coaches give individual feedback to the players and their parents so they know what they need work on to get better.  I've seen all kinds of kids through the years that were "the best at... insert skating, shooting, etc" but because they were the best stopped working on that specific skill.  Kids need to focus on the weaknesses in their games, but not to the detriment of improving their entire game when doing the extra stuff.  

On 5/30/2022 at 10:10 AM, Icebucket said:

I'd say it's more based on the players work ethic. Many top end players at 10U learn at a young age that they don't have to work hard to be the best. The kids who struggle through the early stages of hockey learn how much the hard work pays off.

Obviously this isn't always the case as there are good young players who work very hard, but it's certainly easier for them to just go through the motions.

The willingness to put in the work and to also have coaches that can balance the development with being successful is key.  Having a coach that both values winning games, but also developing kids that "play the right way" is what we found worked best for my son.  He was pushed by his coaches and his parents to always be a "team player" but, because he has always had a very competitive personality he valued the idea of winning and losing.  I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that there weren't conversations about only worrying about the things that he could control and that there wasn't anything he could do but play his best all the time, regardless of what the other kids were doing (or not doing).  I believe this helped in his development, along with not pushing him to play "AAA" at an extremely early age.  He wanted to from a very young age and my wife and I made the decision to do what we felt was going to be best for him as he grew and matured as a player and as a person.  

I played from the time I was 4/5 years old, and I agree with the prior messages about the best players at 10-12 aren't the best players at 15 or 16.  I believe most of that is the "too much, too soon" part of it.  I never wanted to see my son "burnout" because we did too much when he was in 6th and 7th grade.

On 5/21/2022 at 3:39 PM, Novos51 said:

We played AA from Bantam on. It was appropriate for his dedication level. He had talent to potentially play higher but not the passion. That’s fine with me. He had a blast. Made great friends. Played two other sports. Went to proms and homecomings etc. Hes going to play either D1 or 2 ACHA depending on his dedication level. I’m fine with either one. AA tended to cost us around 3K in fees. A couple years we played independent and PAHL so more travel was needed but everyone understood that. Some years we did 3-4 tourneys with 1 or 2 in town. Some years we did 6-8 mostly out of town. 
From Bantam to midget we lost about half our kids. Some to whatever AAA. Some to school full time. A few just had enough and focused on other sports. 
Had my son worked harder and wanted some level of AAA I would have supported it. To me hockey was red about an expectation of NHL glory. It was about the time we spent together. That was worth every dollar. He played travel baseball for a while and my daughter played travel softball. I spent a lot of money. The same I would have spent on a nice vacation every year. 
Adults make decisions. I’m glad we do have some intelligent discussions that newer parents can get info from. I often wonder why the bulk of this board is slamming PPE or “faux” AAA but to each their own. 

The fun part is my grandson played his first year of mites this year. I have the experience now. I also laugh at the ridiculous mite parents although my wife reminds me that was us 12 years ago. 
if your kid is playing now then cherish the time and understand they probably aren’t going to play in the NHL. Understand that there are great camps and skills development but also understand that their are people out there who will tell you anything for dollars.  Sit back and get your joy from the joy your kid has. Isn’t that what it means to be a parent? If you are constantly pissed off about coaches/playing time etc. really talk to your kid. Are they really pissed off too? 
Ultimately listen to your kids. Understand what they really want. Fill that need if you can. 
If your kids aren’t playing anymore than relax and offer sage advise. Don’t just say xyz sucks. Tell them why and don’t say it if it sucked for you because of whatever. Give them a little more perspective. 

This is the best comment on this entire thread...  the term perspective was used and that is 100% on point.  Some stuff isn't for everyone, and the player should dictate where they are playing and at what level.  Then the ability for a family to allow that to happen comes into play.  Let the player "drive the bus" and then use that to help shape the decisions being made based off of an individual situation. 

My son has aged out, but but started at a smaller organization and was very often the best player on the ice even when skating with kids 2 years older than him, we then made the decision to decline an offer from PPE and play PAHL AA for a few seasons at a larger organization and then he ultimately did move on and play on a few different AAA teams before he aged out.  Had chances to play junior at different levels, but we were lucky that he was a good student and he decided to just focus on school after graduation.  Very happy with the path he took and the friends both him and our family made through the journey.  The cost, which was significant, was more than worth it when you consider the experiences, friends, and other connections all of us were lucky enough to make through hockey.

1 hour ago, Saucey said:

People criticize because it drains the talent playing locally and not everyone can afford to pay that or wants to spend all their time traveling when the finish line remains the same.

 It is NOT good for the sport at all to continue to raise the bar for entry. I mean I get it, if you got the change you don't give a flying F about people without. Pretty standard for people with money IMHO. You prevent people with talent from playing. I hear this argument all the time, like draining the talent doesn't somehow affect other families. It does. I know a family with a good kid in a low birth year who has some talent that is poised to exit the sport at his prime playing year because the level of play is just that bad in PAHL and the family is not willing to go play AA under a faux AAA name.

So yeah, people care. I get it you don't.

Then who is at fault?  Players and parents who can and want to do it, the organizations who let the teams chart these courses, tournaments that recruit these teams, skills coaches who work with these players, PAHL, MidAm, or USA Hockey as a governing body.  I guess my point is that you shouldn't be blaming the parents or the players for doing something that is readily available for anyone who wants to do it and has the ability to do it.  So if everyone other than PPE and Vengeance continued to play PAHL "AA", do you not think that the players that are playing what you call "faux AAA" wouldn't all still get together under one or two teams/organizations and do the same thing?  This box has been open and it isn't going to get shut no matter how much people don't like it.  I've long advocated that the best way to possibly combat some of this is better education for parents and players at younger levels as they are entering the game, so they are aware of what the path looks like and what the odds of "making it" truly are.   Until something like that happens, it doesn't make sense to be critical of the choices other people are making as far as it concerns their family and their finances.  

16 hours ago, Icebucket said:

Obviously any team can go overboard and travel a bunch regardless of their level, but the AA teams are almost always significantly cheaper... The 15-20 guaranteed local PAHL games fill out the schedule nicely and help hit the benchmark of expected games without having to travel all around the country.

This is the point that I was trying to make earlier, and all of this I feel ultimately comes down to a few things:

1.  Can a player play at that level?  Be it "AAA" or PAHL "AA" or another PAHL level.

2.  What are the players/parents comfortable with as far as travel and financial commitment is concerned.

I understand why people on here criticize the cost, but who's business is it to criticize families on how they choose to spend their money.  I might not think that my nextdoor neighbor needs to spend $50,000 on a new car because a $30,000 car will do the same thing, but it's their money to spend, not mine.  

18 hours ago, mrfreeze said:

Before saying PAHL is cheaper, I would think this statement is not really accurate, If you are playing on a PAHL program that gets less ice time / practices, plays less tournaments and often have volunteer coaches, that keep the cost down. I think you need to look at what you are getting for your money, Seems like the biggest expense could be extra or further travel, but some like this or want to travel to these tournaments. i know people that paid pretty close in PAHL AA fees as they did at AAA. 

Yes, that is very accurate.  If you figure a team that has a volunteer coach vs. a paid coach is probably saving the group as a whole maybe $10k for a season, so there's a good bit of expense right there and then you add in playing additional "one off" games to fill a schedule someone has to foot the bill for ice and officials.  It is ultimately up to the team what they are comfortable with spending and the amount of travel they are willing to do.

6 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

This should say "starting at" because you then have to start paying regular team fees for ice and other things.  And I don't mean just SHAHA, this is true of all the "AAA" teams including Pens. And if you are worried your kid is on the bubble, get ready to pay for every extra workout, skills training, and in the case of Pens even school ?

100% I would make an educated guess and and say you are probably in the high $4k - low $5k once you add in the "ice and other things".  Travel expenses are their own animal, but I would guess the number I threw out above would be pretty accurate for just the hockey related expenses excluding travel.

21 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Watch yourself on this with other parents - competition, most are only looking out for their own. 

100% correct, but call it what it really is...  not "competition", a THREAT to their "little Crosby".

21 hours ago, rock said:

the fact of the matter is, if your kid is good enough, people will be contacting you.. at any level. how do you think the AA 07 badgers filled there roster to make a run at nationals.. coach recruited.. if a AAA player gets cut all the AA coaches know and reach out.. if your kid is dominating at his level regardless what it is coaches will want him to replace someone.  if no one is hounding you for your kid, he is most likely placed where he should be.  now of course some coaches will be filling spots if they need numbers, but if multiple coaches are wanting your kid it means he has potential to move up.  

Yes, 100% agree.  One other thing I would add is if you are interested in moving to a different organization or a higher level, take the time to talk to another parent who has a kid on that team, or in that organization and see what they say and what their view of that team/organization is.  There's always a chance that a given team at a higher level might not be a good fit for numerous reasons, but the biggest issues I've heard about over the years have been: 

1. Coach's style isn't a good fit.

2.  Player wasn't ready for that level of intensity/commitment.

3.  Not a good fit with other players/parents.

4.  Financial commitment/travel schedule.

Parents definitely need to do their research prior to making a decision because each of those issues can be addressed prior to jumping somewhere.  Don't be afraid to reach out to a head coach and ask to speak with them get an idea of their philosophy on coaching and other aspects of what a season would look like.

On 5/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, Saucey said:

Why should everyone be chasing like that? That's the problem. When the end game for success is .001? Why is this the norm? Why structure youth sports around the idea that you are training for Div I or the NHL? Because people are making money from it is actually a pretty crap reason to structure something for kids that way.

I think that is where personal choice comes in.  If there was better parental education when players were just becoming involved in the game, then the reality of .001 would resonate and parents would be put in a position to make a much more well informed decision.  I'm also not saying that this is the best way to structure things, in fact I would argue that it isn't, but the reality of the situation is that this is the way that ALL youth sports are being structured now.  Regardless of if we are talking about hockey, soccer, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, if a family chooses to participate on any advanced level, there is going to be a cost associated with moving up to a higher level.  Every family will have a different level of comfort when it comes to pushing their player to develop.  If the player doesn't want to attempt to be part of that .001 I don't have a problem with that, the same way I don't have a problem with a player who is pushing for that .001% opportunity.  As long as players at all levels are getting a chance to continue to participate, I don't see a problem with it, but there should also not be a judgement passed on parents or players regardless of what end of the development spectrum they choose to pursue.