Corsi

My kids have all aged out, but here's the advice I would give:  Play at the highest level that your player is capable of playing and your personal economic situation allows.  If you enjoy traveling on weekends and spending time with the parents, then do it.  If you don't or your personal situation doesn't allow it, then don't do it.  Hockey has changed, and the correct path isn't always a straight line anymore.  Hockey, and ALL youth sports, has become a business and that's not going to change.  If your player has the skill to play at a high level, do it...  if your financial and social situation allows you to do it, do it...  if you and the rest of your family are comfortable with it, do it.  All anyone on here can do is give advice based off of what their experience and knowledge tells them.  If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, but instead of attacking, share the difference of opinion and debate, no reason to get personal or go on the attack.  Ok, back to hockey...

With all the tournaments that are available now and with LiveBarn, if a player is really talented they more often than not get noticed.  Players from PAHL teams get invited to Mid-Am Evaluation Camp.  Very rarely do those kids get chosen, but they get the opportunity.  From what I understand from speaking to evaluators the difference tends to come from the difference in the intensity of the game as the level of play ramps up.  Regardless of what you have to say about "faux AAA" teams, if they are ranked in the 40's to 60's and the PAHL "AA" team is ranked in the 120's the difference between the teams is usually due to the teams strength of schedule.  With a more difficult schedule usually comes a higher level of intensity and can a "good AA player" adapt to the speed, physicality, and intensity of a "AAA" game?

4 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So where do I go to find out where my kid "really is in the pecking order of players"?   Who is the reputable source in Western PA?  Or do I have to go somewhere else to get an honest assessment?

I would say 3 ways, one was already mentioned:

1.  Are you getting asked to come to PPE, by people affiliated with PPE?

2.  Let people from outside of Pittsburgh see the player and evaluate them.  Most of those evaluators know that if you are in Buffalo or Detroit doing a camp or an evaluation weekend, they know that you are most probably not moving there to join a team, so the evaluation would, most likely, be accurate.  

3.  Go to clinics/camps with players that are playing on "high-end" teams and see with your own eyes where your player stacks up against those other players.  

On 4/30/2022 at 8:30 PM, BeaverFalls said:

I’m sure people won’t agree with me, but I’ve seen more development come from quality camps, lessons and training than arbitrarily playing on the next higher A team. Obviously there’s a point where you don’t want to be playing way below one’s skill level, but saving that extra 2-10k per year and investing it into the aforementioned will get the best bang for the Buck. 

BeaverFalls, you made 2 very good points.  Yes, the biggest issue right now is the lack of parental education which leads them to believe whatever they are told, and thus the arms race to be on the team with the most A's while not knowing where their player really is in the pecking order of players.  If coach X tells them that Billy has a future these parents blindly follow it.  Also, yes camps and lessons are key but eventually the skill level you are playing with and the size of the organization become key.  It's not helpful to have a player with AA/AAA skill playing on an A major roster if they are just dominating.  

11 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Indiana, Johnstown Jets, and Johnstown Warriors have had a few mediocre AA teams over the years. Altoona used to have some powerhouse AA teams before Mid-State was formed.

Yes, I believe State College has had a few over the years, mainly at younger age groups, but that was years ago.  Those teams seemed to have broken up and players have moved on to other organizations.  Looks like none of those organizations have anything above "A" anymore.

My understanding is that Appalachian Elite is/was a team that was created in that area as a response to the Mid-State Mustangs.  From what I heard in past, it was a group of parents from that rink that weren't fans of Mustangs and started that team/program as a direct competitor.  I'm pretty sure at one point both played split seasons between Mustangs or App Elite and their PAHL teams (Jets, Trackers, Icers, Warriors, etc).  I think that at one point App Elite and the Johnstown Jets rosters were almost identical.  

21 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

It's amazing they can do that with one sheet of ice.

Its only 1 sheet of ice, but the only 2 groups that rent ice are Bethel Park scholastic and SHAHA.  They get priority and there is no or very very few public sessions and such there.

11 hours ago, mrfreeze said:

It did get a good amount of updates back when it won the Kraft hockey award, I know the Pens put additional money into it, but it was still deemed not good enough to host the game and they moved it to UPMC last minute. 

If I remember correctly, they did the Hockeyville updates, but the issue was that there is concrete behind the boards, because the ice sheet is below the stands.  The NHL and the NHLPA decided that it wasn't safe to host an NHL game if there wasn't any "give" to the boards as a very valid player safety concern.  

On 4/23/2022 at 9:25 PM, Saucey said:

I think it would be a good thing for parents to educate themselves early. To play a sport in college is different than I thought, but particularly ice hockey. 

Thank you Saucey!  I've been saying this for years, and it is the rink leadership and organizational leadership that needs to be doing this education piece with parents when the start playing, and not when the player is already 14 or 15 years old.  Tell the parents what the "hockey journey" looks like when they are 7 or 8 years old so that parents can go in with their eyes open and aware.  Also, don't sugar coat it and say that the kid is going to be getting a scholarship or getting drafted.  We all know that the odds of either of those are long, so parents and players should be aware of that.

Yes, I believe Saucey is correct.  Most of the contracts the organizations have with rinks extends until the end of April or early May so they use the ice when they have access to it.  I also, believe some varsity programs have Summer conditioning/lifting programs for the players, so it allows them to have those players and numbers in place.  I do wonder though, what happens if a player moves into a given school district in July or August, would the teams have a spot available, especially if the player in question is a good player?  My instinct is to say that no coach is going to to turn down a player that could help their team, especially at the varsity level.

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

At least they are playing the game and probably are having a great time at it.  If they are all at roughly the same level it should be very competitive.

 

The games are usually competitive, but some schools will have AAA level players playing with B level players, so things have been known to get out of hand from a score point of view depending on the depth of the teams from time to time.  Probably no different than PIHL.

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

Do not be so naive to think this does not happen at other levels ( and other sports ), as some of the top AA teams already have 75% or more of their roster locked in with returning players.  Do you honestly think a kid that was on said AA team the prior year, had a good season and did just OK at tryouts that his spot would be in jeopardy?  If a coach has coached a kid prior and has good history with that player, nothing earth-shattering will come from three one-hr tryout slots.

At the AAA level organizations get a preview of what is coming at tryouts with those "invite only" open skates, and if the coach likes what he sees he connects with that kid with an offer to commit.    Whether you like the process or not, that is the process.

Also, this is not a new phenomenon, things like this have gone on with all higher level organizations in all sports for years.  99% of the time when a "new" player makes a AAA roster, they were on the coaches and other team officials radar for months before tryouts even occur.  Occasionally, you will see someone "off the street" make it, but they are truly facing an uphill battle for spots due to the factors mentioned above.  If this is the right way to do it or not is another question, but in reality this how it works across all amateur sports that are able to recruit and are not locked into specific geographic (school district) locations.

Huh???  My kid aged out a few years ago.  Not sure what that is supposed to mean.  I know about the SHAHA 09 team because I have a friend with a player on the team and because of that relationship I went to some of the games this past season.

22 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

The Lebo goalie had the second lowest goals allowed in PAHL AA and took his team to the championship (although they lost).  I think Preds had two goalies?  Looking at their scores it looks like goaltending carried them a lot too.  

I watched the 09 PAHL AA championship game.  Yes, SHAHA won 2-0, but the goalie kept Lebo in the game.  The 1st goal was on a 2 on 1 and the 2nd goal was an empty netter that Lebo put into their own net.  Without the goalie, SHAHA probably puts up more than 6 goals.  

24 minutes ago, Hockey00 said:

is this why Vengeance 09 lost both goalies 

The rumor is that one of them is moving to Florida, and the other was told he wasn't coming back and will be at SHAHA 09 pending the outcome of PPE tryouts.  

14 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Apparently that team is going "AAA" next year as well.  Seems questionable to me to make that jump the first year of checking. 

Not sure how it's "questionable", all the 2009 teams are going to be playing their 1st year of checking, regardless of "AAA", "AA", "A", or "B"... so its equal footing for everyone from that perspective.  

3 hours ago, twoboys said:

And it doesn't exactly look like SHAHA made it easy for the 09 team since they had to buy ice at Rostraver at times. 

I reached out to my friend about this.  It has nothing to do with the SHAHA organization not making it easy to schedule the independent games, it was that the ice time was already accounted for by other teams in the organization having PAHL games scheduled, which took precedence to the independent games.  He did mention that the organization and the scheduler have been very supportive, but this was an issue with other teams within the organization's regular season game schedule being a higher priority.

On 3/4/2022 at 12:59 PM, RegDunlop7 said:

You're missing the point. There's no reason that the top Pittsburgh-area Tier II teams can't play in a competitive PAHL division (20 games) then use the remaining 20-30 games on their schedules to travel for tournaments/non-league games.

In theory that is the best way to do it, I know that 2009 SHAHA did that exact thing this season (I know it is only Pee Wee, but it's a good example).  I'm friends with a parent on that team and from what I've been told, the issue comes when scheduling the extra 20-30 games.  The "AAA" teams ranked in the 50-100 range won't schedule a team with the "AA" next to it because it destroys their ranking if they were to lose or tie.  So the "AA" team ranked in the 120-150 range doesn't get a chance to challenge themselves against better teams without having the "AAA" next to the name.  I'm sure that sounds crazy, and it is, but that's the way that clump of teams schedule, in order to keep the "AAA" moniker alive.

On 3/2/2022 at 2:50 AM, mrfreeze said:

Over the last 10 years 12u AA, 14u AA and 16u AA usally have 4 competive teams, the other 6 suck. What is the real benifit of staying in PAHL to play 2/3 of your games against crap. They can still get local games against the 3 or 4 simular teams and then find other simular games.

Thank you Mr. Freeze for stating it this way.  That is the problem that PAHL runs into and the reason you have teams going independent.  Playing a PAHL AA schedule is similar to going to a tournament with 2 strong teams in a division and 4 weak teams, you still HAVE to play games vs. the weak teams.  As a parent of a player that has since aged out, I used to HATE traveling to Buffalo, or Detroit and having to be at a rink at 7AM to play a game that ends up 10-0 with a running clock.  Very similar things happen every weekend in PAHL at the AA level when one of the "powerhouse" teams has to face one of the lower level teams.  These are also the games that often end up featuring high penalty minute totals and parents acting like idiots out of frustration.  I get the reasoning behind playing an independent schedule if you are one of the strongest PAHL teams in a given BY with little or no competition within the division.

Teams have been doing this for years with the EJEPL, which has allowed teams to play their DVHL schedule and also an approximate 20 game EJEPL schedule.  Some of those teams have left EJEPL and are now part of the AHF (Black Bear).  I could see some of the "AA" PAHL teams leaving PAHL for a something similar as this and then supplementing with an independent schedule.  It would allow there to be 20 or so games already scheduled and then independently schedule however many additional games the team decides to offer.  The question that should be asked, in my opinion, is what league will offer the best competition, because if you are going to travel to NJ, Philly, or Virginia for league games, the level of competition would need to be higher from top to bottom than what teams are getting currently with PAHL.

I don't feel like people are complaining or anything along those lines, but are simply pointing out how things have evolved over the past 15-20 years when it comes to youth hockey.

Yes, Silver Sticks was a "big deal" going back to the mid to late 80s.  Now, the higher end teams don't attend and instead go to the CCM Invite and Super Series events.  The point about knowing who you are going to play is a big deal, especially when teams are putting together their schedules.  You would run the risk of having some very unhappy parents if you spend the time and money on a tournament and the teams are not even remotely competitive with each other.  

Anytime I've coached younger kids we always used off ice to introduce systems and get the players to at least have an idea of where they should be going.  I've watched a bunch of Pee Wee AA Major hockey this season because a friend has a son that plays at that level, and I still enjoy going to the rink.  What is very noticable is what was commented on before, the lesser skilled players still allow themselves to follow their eyes to the puck, instead of understanding the idea of spacing, and how spacing can lead to chances.  Prime example last weekend in one of these games when on winger stayed wide, while there were 5 players bunched together in a scrum, puck came free, the kid picked it up, and beat the defenseman wide for a breakaway goal.  If that players doesn't recognize to stay wide and out of the scrum, there's ZERO chance that goal happens.

35 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

If your 12U or younger team has a set group of players for the PP, you should ask the Coach, why?

Roll your lines, teach them all PP and SH situations and you will be surprised at who are some of the more capable players in these situations.

PK requires a lot of thinking and desire. PP requires an understanding of spacing and puck movement.

Nowadays, all of these traits can be difficult to find in players.

You missed my point.  They are not running a set PP and are just turning over lines, but my point is that the kids are pretty much only getting 1 unit out per PP attempt, with the second unit getting 10-15 seconds if they are lucky.  Not enough time to get a change.

It has definitely worked at the younger age groups so we don't have kids taking a hooking penalty and missing 2/12 minutes in a given period.  The only drawback I've seen is how quickly the PP opportunities go by.  This has lead to very little time to give different groups of kids the chance to get PP time.  This has also lead to less chancse to get set up in the zone and begin the process of learning to "set-up" on a power play.  From talking to some parents I know with kids playing at the 1min penalty levels, all the chances come off of the rush and very few are during "extended" zone time where the kids get to develop quicker decision making and passing skills.

The head of the WPIAL was on Pittsburgh radio this morning (93.7 The Fan) and she addressed this exact question.  She alluded to it being a cost issue and said that hockey has its own league (PIHL) that handles the affairs of the league.  I worked in public education for years and had the chance to talk to a few athletic directors about why hockey wasn't an official school sport and was treated as a club sport.  The answers almost always had to do with cost, insurance, or Title IX requirements.