ChiefKeef

It’s not a rah rah for the Vengeance. If all those local 08’s can play there, and have success, then no-one else’s kids are too good for that program. Granted, you need to have a portion of the higher end kids in your BY opting in to have it work. Why would they leave to get exposure? They’re getting invited to and doing everything all the peewee parents and bantam parents obsess over. Like the exclusive spring teams and CCM 68. Not advocating for any of that stuff__ as opportunist parents and especially hockey dad coaches find ways to heavily taint those selection processes. However, for the time being, it’s the end all be all (kids and parents will learn that none of it matters) and the Vengeance kids are right there with other top kids in country. I’m not going to debate the Vengeance vs Esmark or whoever else. The Vengeance have either pulled it off or almost pulled it off with multiple birthyears, in regards to getting the high level players. The Pens are terrified of them at the younger ages. The worst possible scenario for the Penguins is people opting for Harmarville in squirts. It will start an irreversible trend, it almost did at one point. The people signing up for squirt hockey, are oddly enough, the only ones that can change this. The power balance lies with those parents. If the majority of the high end kids at that moment opt out of pens, then things will change. The families who are already in Cranberry are a lost cause for the most part. Some will figure it out, most won’t. BUT … Whatever issues the Vengrance or anyone else have going on is small beans compared to what is going on in Cranberry. If you, Mr. Esmark or iceman advocate, and some other egos around town had any sense__ or if you actually cared about local hockey__ minds would be gathered and figuring out ways to make something bigger and better available to all those 06’s, 07’s, and 08’s who had to leave Pens. Then soon to be 09’s, 10’s and 11’s. It’s the same story every year, yet everyone who could do something about it sits around and fiddles their thumbs, pointing fingers back and forth from New Ken to Ice Castle. Who gives a shit about NP kids playing at Vengeance. What about the people who have to drive 2-3 hour to Cleveland or leave town altogether__ because the Pens fuck them all over. Is that subject not deserving of being discussed as to possibly educate other parents on what they are getting involved with? The Vengeance attempting to do something about it is not celebratory? What the fuck is your preferred program doing about it? Painting the lobby walls every two years and expecting people to show up and show out? Is it even hard to justify to parents where they should put their time and resources? The proof is all there. Somebody make a slideshow and break it down. You have X percent chance of having long term success in this sport (meaning anything after amateur hockey) after X amount of dollars spent at PPE based on PPE’s results for X amount of years. Then compare it to other programs around the country. People would lose their fucking minds. The hornets had kids moving on and sustaining it left and right. That was what, almost 10 years ago now? The Pens bought out the hornets, why haven’t they been able to keep up that momentum or anything even remotely resembling it? Why do other hockey programs around the country with significantly less financial and time commitments, some in small cities with smaller overall talent pool__ why do these programs out perform a program who wants kids on the ice 4 hours a day, and in a gym two hours a day? At a massive time and financial commitment from both kids and parents. And why is there so much turn over on bantam and midget teams? Why do some teams have 0 Pittsburgh kids from their respective BY on them? What does that say about the Pens development process? Why is all that money and time not producing what other programs produce at a fraction of the cost? They blame it on the kids and families, ala one of their coaches on here saying you need kids to be ‘committed to the lifestyle’. And how kids just don’t want to do it. As if going to a private school, and spending all day there and at a rink until 9pm isn’t enough of a commitment. Anyone who makes it out of that program and actually plays on the junior team, or fulfills the scholarship. Not just getting drafted or committing (as the pens lobby TV’s would have the naive parent believe), does it despite the Penguins. And they do it at a handicap because that program doesn’t have any kids best interest at heart. On the other hand, maybe the pro team is complicit in it and they like the money being generated (if applicable; I don’t know what money goes where, can’t speak to that end). Either way, the parents have the option to not enable it, and going off of recent history, probably give their kid a better path developmentally. Spend 1/4 the time and money in the process.

I said the Vengeance probably have 1/4 the bullshit. Every program does. If you ask the Pens guys about theirs, however, they make a sour puss face and point to Honeybaked, or Mid-Fairfield etc. As if two wrongs make a right. The problem for the Pens is while other programs have their bullshit, other programs also move way more kids along into junior and college programs. The Pens just have a lot of bullshit with very little to show for it year over year__ and it’s not for a lack of talented kids, or a lack of ‘kids who are committed’ in Pittsburgh as one of their employees suggested. The parents decide who the best program is by taking the better players there. If these mite and squirt parents looked at the reality of the path through Cranberry, they may choose elsewhere thus making those teams good. Two birthyears… 14’s and 15’s… sack up and change the world. 13’s belong to the streets now. Yes, everyone does mind the rankings. However there’s minding the rankings and then there’s making it your whole identity as a program. The former does the latter.

Yes. Not creating teams until September allows the Pens to hold kids hostage from going to other programs. It’s also to hold them hostage on a black team, because by Sept. they have no other options. It’s really fucked up__ and the fact that people don’t revolt right then and there is wild. The mite development league and 66’rs was created with the intent on sinking their hooks in early. I think they would even admit that. Unfortunately no one finds out until it’s too late that these guys just small fish in a smaller pond full of naive fish. I always have to hand it to them in some ways though, for as much grimy shit that goes on behind the scenes there, they also do things right out in the open. They would have you think they’re shot callers in the youth hockey world. They aren’t. They don’t even know what they’re doing in a general sense. One year a coach tells you ‘that’s wrong’, the next coach screams at you for not doing it ‘the wrong way’. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some good people involved there. As I always say, whatever good they try to do is always diminished by the overall narrative. It is beyond cringey to see how parents tip toe around these guys with self preservation in mind. People outside of Pittsburgh think PPE is a joke, especially hockey people. They create a tough schedule. That’s it. Win a few, lose a few, get that top 10 ranking and start cashing the checks. Thats how entitled this town, which isn’t a hockey town, has made that program. These guys would be chased out of a real hockey town, within a year. Pittsburgh people just keep lining up, because the high from driving around with that car decal is too good to pass up. Fuck the kids and their development. Give me that sweet sweet validation that my off-spring are a cut above the rest, everyone on I-79 will know it. Let me relish in the Facebook comments ‘he’s going to be playing with Sidney one day!!1!!1!’ … from my friends and family who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground regarding hockey. UPMC Lemeiux is ground zero for the corporate mind who wants to buy or influence decisions when merit itself can’t get it done. They eat that shit up. If that’s you, you’re a Pens Elite Family. Or as they would say, ‘Pens Elite material’. If you can write those checks, keep your mouth shut, and kiss the ring then they have a spot for you until they don’t need you anymore. Even if your kid is the ‘best’ in PGH as all the squirt/peewee parents like to determine__ there’s still going to be promises made to outsiders once the time comes. You’re bought in by then and they know you’re not going anywhere. Take a seat and be quiet. Trust the process hssssssssssss…

Why do the Pens tell squirt parents they won’t name the teams until August/September? Yet they have to commit in April. I feel like you would know for some reason.

Who said they were all world. The conversation has simply been that every 06 Pittsburgh kid is in Cleveland. Last year, that 06 Barons teams with all the Pittsburgh kids on it shit kicked the 06 Pens team with everywhere else’s kids on it. The pens aren’t proficient at what they claim to do. They play a tough schedule, secure those top 10 rankings regardless of win and losses, then promote themselves as some powerhouse organization. Their results with giving kid’s opportunities to develop don’t even match up to lower level orgs around the country. The director thinks he’s creating the Chicago Mission 2.0. He is a pioneer in one sense, that he saw inflation coming for about six consecutive years now. As the prices have rose steadily over those 6 years, sometimes with 1k increment jumps to the next year. No more ice time, no additional training. Cost of freezing ice in Cranberry is just higher I guess. All that’s being created though is a haven for rich parents whose kids are otherwise unhappy elsewhere. Or parents who want to be sucked off by a program, and feel the warm feelings and validation of being wanted and recruited__At the expense of local kids. As I mentioned in the last thread (linked in the first post)__ the business model is to rely on locals squirt - peewee. Tell them everything they want to hear. Let them experience a soft ‘fucking’ in bantam minor. Then drop the bomb when it’s time for excel. We all know what you squirt and mite parents are thinking__ my kid is too good. Our team is too good. Ironically, no one has been more deep with local kids than the 06’s at the Pens. As of last year, 15o, they had what… 2 locals left on the team? Stop taking your mites there, stop taking your squirts there, if you’re still there in peewee’s start looking for alternatives in the next year. Or you will find out the hard way. Just like the rest of us whose kids were top notch, some of the best in the country, getting invited to all the exclusive spring teams, having the number 1-8 ranked team in country. If you can get two consecutive squirt birthyears to pull their head out of their ass (to no fault of their own; they’re new)__ but if you can educate these people on what they would avoid by going a different route early on__ you will get every birthyear to follow and that will be the end of this unfortunate period in Pittsburgh hockey. It’s a win - win for parents. Take all of PPE’s customers (as they call them) and put them in Harmarville for a season. Take out of the equation the pens jersey, the glorified concession stand, and the rinks. What will happen is the 08 Vengeance at every birthyear. There’s some seriously talented players on that team, your child, Mr squirt Dad is not better than their best player. So put your ego aside and get the crew rounded up. Go play for Zeiler or someone down there. Kids fucking love him. Forget the pens elite car decals, nobody cares about those past age 12. What do you want more? Your (local) kid to have a shot at development or 4-5 years of Facebook photos in a Pens jersey? Any doubts? Again, look at 08’s. They’re getting invited to all the popularity contests they would have if they were at Pens. No kid on that team is missing a beat. At probably less than half the cost of the cult, and almost certainly 1/4 the bullshit. Do you know what else they won’t do in Harmarville? They won’t force your squirt player to commit money to the team__ then not tell you if he’ll be on on the gold or black team until September. That whole process was created to undermine any other local programs attempt to get some of those squirt players away from Pens. There’s not a single legitimate reason why the squirt coach waits that long to create the team. Other than to serve PPE’s interests. Thats your first red flag, but if you miss it, don’t worry many more coming. What are the results? Why is some team in Jersey who practices 3 nights a week putting kids into juniors and college > the Pens 24/7 cult buzzsaw? Just an example. Very interesting when you start to look at the Penguins Elite’s results in developing kids. Columbus outperforming them heavily? Many such cases around the country, Why? They’re on the ice more than anyone… Why is the director now holding ‘excel’ camps in Sweden? Coincidentally there are now kids from Sweden at Pens. Mite/Squirt parents. When the phone call comes. Ignore it. Even if you’re at 66’rs now. Play the game, organize behind the scenes in those few years, then leave, don’t look back and change your numbers. If one of the Scientology members is still able to reach you, tell them you don’t have any money. They will leave you alone. Better yet, go have fun and play regular mite hockey with everyone else. Enjoy the local tournaments and that age in general. That’s one of the most special time frames in the process. Don’t let them take that from you as well___ even if your intentions are still to go the PPE route.

Any pro pens stuff you’re reading here about the 08’s is either from an 08 pens parent or one of their employees. Obviously. I’m guessing Sal is a pens employee. They always give themselves away quickly__ just look for them to blame the parents in some capacity. It’s always someone else’s fault but theirs. Questioning the coach of the 08 vengeance is laughable. My child has never been coached by him__ I’ve simply had conversations with the guy, and have seen him in action enough to know his pedigree. I’ve had many conversations with Pens coaches__ some of which can’t even string a competent sentence together, while others are just your dime a dozen slick talking salesman. A good one here and there. Gene seems to care about his players, so if I’m an 08 V player__ I’m taking comfort in the fact that my coach is the best option in town, I’m actually being developed for long term success past amateur hockey, my home organization isn’t trying to exploit me of any expendable income I have, I don’t have to be in a cult by participating in excel, I don’t have to worry about getting boned because my peers parents are hiring the directors son to come teach their kids hockey at their house, I don’t have to worry about my development being so shitty that I may not get looks I would have otherwise got playing elsewhere, I don’t have to pay 40k a year to play hockey, my program isn’t actively looking to recruit players from everywhere but here for optics and money etc.

Forbin, that’s the only way it stops. By getting the majority of squirt parents to buy in elsewhere. If people can get past the jersey and the rink, it will effect change for the Pittsburgh hockey community. PPE was smart though, they got involved with mite hockey so they can sink their teeth in early. This gives them every opportunity to recognize and try to break up any attempt at a birthyear going a different route. Think of union busting. As I mentioned in the tryout thread__ if all this crap actually led to good odds of kids getting places then so be it. It doesn’t. The Pens results with moving kids on are far behind other programs around the country and the exploit, and take advantage of local kids until they have no use for them any longer seemingly. A lot of these parents think it will never happen to them because their kid is too good__ please see linked thread above.

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MIC DROP LOL

Well regarding money. Families are what, over 60k invested by Peewee major? And that’s just dues and travel__ not Grade school/Middle schools excel or any extra curricular. Actually, now that they’ve sunk their teeth into mites and 5 year old hockey, it’s probably over 80k leading up to peewee major. I would think it would be a decent thing to do by having a conversation about the state of that program. The data is all there to prove how shitty they are at what they claim to do. It’s just on the people who have been through the intangibles to tell the other side of the story. So I don’t view it as complaining as the other poster said. I view it as having a conversation on a medium meant for conversation, one that’s heavily trafficked by western pa hockey parents__ and potentially educating some people on what they’re getting into. It’s easy for some to say__ purchase the team or complain. When you don’t have a kid who has to leave home at 14 due to PPE incompetence. That organization should be serving local kids. Not pillaging them for all they are worth until it comes time for the academy prep school cosplay__ then either sending locals packing or catering to outside kids at the expense of the local. Get more squirt parents in the loop and reject PPE early on__ the whole landscape will change within two years. People operate under the guise that PPE is the end all be all for their kids. It’s those initial groups of ‘top’ squirts choosing where to play that dictates the power. Educate those parents and watch the hockey scene turn back into one that is free of the toxicity that permeates it from Cranberry. It’s that simple. Let them know that it’s cool to wear a pens jersey but it’s a lot more beneficial to have people who are invested in your child, working with your child. Prime example: the PPE coach on here thinks it’s black and white, kids just need to work hard because there’s no ‘magic wand’. Dude doesn’t even consider that there could be more to it than working hard, and that that has to come from the people who are involved with your development. Maybe that’s enough for a squirt player to have success hockey2020, as you well know, but there’s a lot more to it when hockey starts to matter at 14. And your program doesn’t know what or how to deal with it. And they aren’t even interested in finding out, because you’re enabled by parents who don’t know any better. I’d say PPE is on easy street, but it’s much more sinister than that given all the resources you extract from families. I’d be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that PPE does have ‘some’ good people working there. Unfortunately their individual contributions cannot escape the shadow of what the executive directors version of the program is. Better said, you can have a good year with a good coach, you’re still going to run into the wall when it comes time for high school Excel. I would name said people who are just there to coach, but it would probably draw the ire of their boss who would view them as a threat, or that they’re co-conspiring with a person on a message board to under mine him. The situation is that dense. The UPMC rink is still leaps and bounds better than most, whatever issues it may be having. The 200x85 sheet of ice is the same everywhere… what goes on, on it is what matters. That’s where the Pens ‘cracks’ show…

Well if you aren’t then that’s my bad. I apologize. I admittedly did not read your full post and focused on the solution part. It sounds a lot like the arrogance that comes from them, albeit I see now that you meant it in a different context. I admittedly just don’t like your solutions, with all due respect. I disagree with some of what you said about them being a private organization. In theory that’s true of course. However, if you’re going to operate under the umbrella of a pro hockey team, use their likeness to sell your product__ then you should probably not stray too far from the codes and ethics familiar to said program. As of right now, The Pittsburgh Penguins look complicit in harboring a youth hockey program that is widely known to screw over local Pittsburgh kids. The same kids who’s parent most likely have spent thousands over the years on Crosby jerseys and tickets to PPG. Furthermore, to my major point, they aren’t even good at what they do. That rink is a meat market of teenaged kids, where they heard the cattle on the ice, bark orders and hope everyone figures it out. It’s uninspired, non-detail oriented, vanilla crap that doesn’t benefit kids growth. It’s simply the repetition of being on the ice. Which is better than nothing, but there methods do not stack up to their competitors when it comes to taking athletes and developing for long term success. There’s no refuting this, it’s in the data.

You sound obvious. Time will tell though. I bet we can revisit this convo down the line here and see if what was being discussed had some merit.

I see we have the whole PPE squad on here now trying to do PR lol There’s certainly a lot of kids taking you up on your 2nd option huh?! Last years 06 pens team had kids that came in for that season, then got drafted. That’s half the point__ they aren’t developing kids, they’re attaching their names to kids success without having much of a hand in the process. Solution counter: - Stop the mass turn over on every team, every year. This entails a complete culture change. Stop Seriously talented local kids from falling behind their counterparts nation wide. Not getting opportunities they should have gotten because they spent all that time trusting the process and skating around punching bag dummies while other programs kids were getting legit training. - Stop blaming your shortcomings as a program on kids and families. Your model is seriously flawed. Most of the hockey community outside of Pittsburgh doesn’t take you seriously. When your program is brought up, eyes roll and sighs are let out. - Do away with Excel academy. The on ice portion of it is nothing more than a glorified skills and drills session that people can buy (at their own pace) for much less than the 30k it takes to do Excel. None of your results as a program justify having and forcing this program on players. You simply aren’t good enough at what you do to have this be an expectation. OR Two birth years folks. Two consecutive squirt birthyears choosing the Vengeance or some where else and it will get the ball rolling for birthyears to follow. Look at the 08 group at Harmarville thriving__ those kids are all doing great and getting invited to all the things they would have been if they were at Pens. If you can’t get over the rink, or the jersey just remember what you hear from those of us who’ve been through it. The parents decide who the best organization is. Take PPE’s whole ‘customer’ pool and put them in Harmarville for a year. I personally think you would see kids thrive, but at the very least, they would be doing the same. Albeit with people who actually care about them. And no 30k for Excel. No smoke and mirrors around every turn. No organizations heads trying to sell them down the river when they’re 14__for the optics of bringing in an out of town kid.

Maybe we should have a Pens thread with a spreadsheet and some data. An assessment of sorts. Their guy isn’t around anymore to get the threads deleted. What do you think hockey2020? We don’t have to name any kids names. Just data on who moved on, and how long did they play at Pens? What’s the percentage of locals moving on? What the percentage of locals still with the program in year 6? Are the Pens helping kids from the start all the way up or are they primarily having kids come in from the outside, for a year, maybe 2, and then claiming them if they commit or get drafted? Then maybe get to the bottom of what the odds are for all that money these families are spending. We’ll have to agree, however, not to blame it on the lack of kids who want to ‘work hard’. They spend all day and night at your cult in Cranberry. So it’s on the Pens to see that they are doing such.

Worse how? The hornets had local kids going places left and right. What do the Pens have? A kid who is the 1% and was developed by his uncles. They aren’t fooling anyone with that. That kid is so good at hockey that it never really mattered where he played. The only other kid to ever put ink to paper in the NHL was a kid who’s Dad saw the Pens program for what it was, and bailed. The irony in that is still palpable. Again, if your kid is not the 1%__ and just to make that clear__ that 1% spans across birthyears. 10 years or more worth of birthyears. I don’t mean 1% of who’s the best 2010. If your kid is not that, like 99% of our kids aren’t. Then your sending your kid down a path of real uncertainty and potential developmental failure by having them play at PPE. Can kids still make it out of there, yes. It’s going to be that much harder though when other ‘top programs’ around the country actually know what they are doing with talent evaluation and development. It’s going to be that much harder when PPE prioritizes income over all else. Your kid is a customer… their words. The tell you this to your face during their presentations at the awkward ass season kick off parties. Has anyone else ever heard a youth sports organization refer to its players as customers? Lol It’s not even about the pros with the pens. Where are the results for junior and college players? Is the 30k price tag between Excel and the regular season living up to its cost? The fucked up part is not only is it proving not to benefit kids, it’s actually working against them because they are doing entirely too much between skating and working out 5 hours a day, keeping up with a private school (that isn’t even worth it’s cost outside of hockey). You’re required to do it, and if you don’t they will replace you with someone who will. If they can’t find a replacement they make you get dressed in a locker room by yourself and treat you like a Leper both on and off the ice. The facts are the facts. It’s all accessible to anyone who cares to research it. They are dog shit at developing kids. They have other programs around the country___who skate 3 times a week, no gym, no bravado, no con artist academy and 1/4 the resources___seriously out performing them in the amount of kids they are sending to higher levels of hockey. Scroll back and see the meltdown one of their employees just had here because he knows what he’s reading is dead accurate. 06’s, 07’s and 08’s have fled that program en masse. How is what the hornets did worse than what’s going on currently? If your kid has aspirations for anything more than amateur hockey they either have to leave town at 14 or roll the dice with Pens and odds stacked against their favor.

Wonder if all the families in the 06’, 07’ and 08’ BY who have to drive 2 hours, say goodbye to their kid (billet) at 14-15, or move altogether have any nausea. You getting your feelings hurt by seeing the truth being told is small beans ‘bud’. Grow up.

None of it has been your first hand experience because you work for the program. Coaches at the program also have free reign to do whatever they want with their kid, so there’s that aspect as well. Why don’t you man up and just own it, no ordinary parent is that passionate about defending that program. Very odd how you go on to claim I’m bashing kids, then make a claim about the 06’ kids that ‘they didn’t want’. Also, if you are insinuating I’m an outsider looking in, then how am I one of those parents. All of those 06’ kids were in the program for 5-6 years. Surely enough time to see what’s what. Did you guys also not want the 06’ Pittsburgh kid who’s playing NTDP? LOL He hightailed it out of town as soon as he could. You are claiming the pens didn’t want the 06’ Pittsburgh kids, yet their Barons team beat the brakes off the 06’ Pens team last season. What does that say about PPE competence and evaluating talent????? The training is mostly uninspired and vanilla. Which comes from the top. There’s honestly more being done at some other programs around town, to nurture and help kids grow, but those programs just don’t have the majority of talent. You know you guys are way too invested in the bottom line to actually care about your players. The bottom line doesn’t allow for good training, good training is not forcing kids on the ice 4 hours a day and working out twice a day. We have all heard it straight from the horses mouth__ we are ‘customers’. There’s much more to developing kids than putting them on the ice and giving orders. Again, with out the majority of talented kids in town, you’re the same as any other AAA program. Maybe even less considering other AAA programs have people with better resumes working for them. I never said kids can’t go anywhere. Kids can. I’m pointing out the lack of kids that do coming from PPE. What does Columbus outperform PPE every year with moving kids on? Why do hockey programs in non-traditional markets with 1/4 the resources you have have alarmingly more success at moving kids on. Don’t put the onus squarely on the kids ‘bud’. You know as well as anyone what I am talking about. Yes, the kids need to work, agreed. A type of commitment that is not the norm. Can you explain however, what work they need to do? Or what that commitment is? Excel students wake up at 7, go to school then spend the rest of the night at the rink. I would think Excel has all of this ‘work’ and ‘commitment’ covered, yes? And if so, why is your program still so shitty at helping kids move on? When is there time to do extra work? On the weekends in between games? What are you talking about? I’ll save you the response, you’re spewing generic coach talk. Work hard… blah blah. Furthermore, does Pittsburgh just have a shortage of kids who can work hard and other towns don’t? Every single birth year? No magic wand is waived to get kids D1 scholarships? LOLOLOLOL. No shit. Maybe you can check in with the hundrereds of programs, again, with 1/4 the resources that do an exponentially better job of helping, not waiving a wand, kids get opportunities. Classic Pens Elite trash. Blame it on not being enough 17 year olds that want to work hard. Blame it on the kids and families. What’s nauseating ‘bud’ is what PPE has done to local hockey. Why is their so much turn over in bantam and midgets? Why do the 06’ Pittsburgh kids all play outside of town? Why did most of the 07’ team walk away? Why are all of your 08’s gone? Because your program sucks. You have just capitalized on a jersey, a rink, and parent insecurity. As well as a small town that just doesn’t know any better to see you for what you are until it’s too late. What are the results? And why? Do me a favor, don’t blame it on the kids. Give me one solid reason outside of blaming it on kids as to why you guys are so incompetent at developing players?

What are you even trying to say? Everyone in town that’s involved with hockey past bantam heard all about how there were some PPE people at the 07 camp. Then we all heard the conspiracies as to why they were there. You know what though, I honestly don’t care to continue a conversation about it. It’s no skin off my back whether they were there or not, what they were there for and what PPE people are doing. Let’s say that they were there evaluating and working favors for Pens kids, as has been insinuated here. Compared to the big picture of how toxic that program is for the local hockey community, it’s irrelevant.

You know, instead of checking under your bed at night for a Penguin__ why don’t you start gossiping some truth about how bad PPE is at what they do. Meaning the results they get with players who aren’t connected, or just flat out 1% talent. Talk so much that the younger kids parents start to really inquire and look at the facts. Point out the turn over on all the teams bantam and above. Why do kids from outside come here and end up leaving? Why are locals leaving? Why is there so much turnover with all parties, outside kids and locals? Why is most of the local talent at the 08 BY playing at Vengeance (outside of having a great coach). Why is there not a single 06’ Pittsburgh kid on the 06’ PPE. Why did half the 07’ team walk away? All it will take is two consecutive birthyears of squirt parents opting out of PPE, not listening to the manipulation on how their kids need to be there to succeed. Don’t even take the phone calls or answer the emails. Just reject them. Gossip about facts and get the ball rolling. You won’t have to deal with PPE much longer after that, or atleast not the current PPE. The parents hold all the power. That’s what everyone fails to realize. The parents decide who the best organization is by taking the majority of talent to that program. That’s all PPE and anyone else is living off of. You take that away from them and they’re the same as any other local AAA program, just with a shinier rink and a 5 star concession stand. These squirt and peewee parents are so concerned with making sure their kid gets a college scholarship. If they knew how bad PPE is at actually providing development for that to happen, they’d all be scared shitless to take their kids there. Gossip and direct your attention towards something that could actually expose PPE and stop hyperventilating about how you think one of their employees is at Midams making power moves. Talk about how the director has hijacked hockey in this town, and created an ‘Academy’ to rob parents blind, and send their kid down the path of burn out and injury. What are the results on the academy everyone is passively aggressively required to participate in? Is paying all that money for that Academy helping kids over say… just attending a normal hockey program and maybe doing something extra curriculars? Are kids at the academy moving on to higher levels of hockey at a higher pace than kids at some rando team in New Jersey who skates 3 times a week? Nope. Talk about facts. Educate people on verbal college commitments being just that, and junior draft selections being just that. PPE will put every kid who ever commits, or gets drafted on their walls under the guise that it means those kids are automatically on the team. Every organization does this if we are being honest, but why do other organizations have so much more success with those kids actually following through on the commitment or draft opportunity ___ and making the junior or college squad? Not for a lack of local talent__ just that most local talent gets funneled through an organization that is not good at developing talent. Educate people on how their 10 year old doing toe drags is cool to see, but that when hockey really matters, it means virtually nothing and the kids need authentic coaching and development to make it to higher levels. They need people looking out for them and doing right by them, none of which happens at PPE. The opposite in fact. Forcing kids to do an academy, skate 3 hours a day, work out twice a day, and then go home at 9 o’clock at night only to get up in the morning and attend a private school that their local public school is probably better than. One of their employees was posting on here until I told him I knew who we was. Funny how that username is no longer active. Didn’t want to substantially dispute anything I’m saying because there is no dispute for it. Bring up facts and those guys will crawl into a hole. Keeping bringing them up and they’ll be crawling all the way back the Ohio turnpike to the cities they came from.

It’s wild how I am basically calling for the abolishment of the current PPE format, and for some PPE individuals there to take their ‘talents’ back where they came from. Still waiting for one of their employees, or sympathizers to answer me on what their results are with moving kids on to higher levels of hockey… Yet I am running propaganda and misinformation in their favor. Just calling it like it is here in this conversation. That program is currently a joke, and a bad one at that___ but they’re aren’t fucking pulling strings at USA hockey. Nor were they ever at the mid am camp to evaluate. Again, an 07 D from Esmark, who was cut by PPE made the final camp. You should be grateful someone like myself, or Danner is around to ‘tell it like it is’. You PAHL parents, Esmark parents and Vengeance parents get so wrapped up in blind rage toward PPE, and how they’re seemingly always kaniving on behalf of their players__ when in reality, you are giving these people entirely too much credit. They aren’t the big scary machine you think they are, those of us who have seen what it is, behind the scenes know it as a house of cards. Propped up by the mindless parents who want PPE decals on the back of their vehicles so they can feel superior, never a thought about if their kid will actually be nurtured there. And also by schizos outside PPE who hang out in local rinks with other parents gossiping about the PPE boogeyman. You people play in to their hands. All of the conspiracies and fairytales about what some of those guys are capable of are just that. They are dime a dozen youth hockey people, for better or worse. In this case mostly worse. Again, they don’t give a single shit about what kids do outside of PPE, one guy in particular is probably offended that mid am process even exist as it takes 2-3 weeks out of the time he could have paying ‘customers’ at the rink.

I was told they were there on business when this came up. There is always quite a few team personnel there from other programs as well. Every year. Regarding the magical birthyear I have no doubt some bullshit went on there. Unfortunately, there is someone powerful enough to make moves there, whether they were made or not. That is an exception, the current format at PPE isn’t built like that.

They were not there evaluating players for Mid-Am selection. They were taking advantage of an opportunity to see kids and possibly find families to add to the program. Does anyone really think they wouldn’t be there to see what the landscape is in surrounding states? Especially when they have an incomplete 07 roster in April? Those mid-am kids are all fair game and low hanging fruit for PPE. Again, they were there for leads on potential ‘customers’. Your logic about this is completely flawed as well. An 07 Dmen from Esmark who was cut by PPE, made the final USA camp. You don’t think the PPE would have snuck in one of their kids if they were calling the shots? Anyone who’s dealt with PPE for more than two years knows that those guys don’t give a single shit about anything that goes on outside of Cranberry. They are in their own little fantasy land where they are the center of their own little hockey universe. Where they sit on this peda-stool behind a curtain, like the wizard of oz, because that’s where people like you put them by thinking they are some force to be reckoned with. Pulling strings at USA hockey. They couldn’t care less who makes it where. As I always say, look at their overall results with moving kids on. That’s not the business model. The business model is to sit back and let the program run itself. Attach their name to can’t miss players, take credit for ‘developing’ them and use those names to market to the 99% who they have zero intention on actually developing long term.

PPE has no say currently in mid-am camps. To my knowledge, the current 07’ coach was there scouting players because PPE couldn’t fill a roster at that birth-year after tryouts. They were there looking for what they call ‘customers’, not evaluating. They’re feeling the effects of treating locals like shit, and the outside hockey community becoming aware that Cranberry isn’t the place to go if you want your kid developed past peewee’s. Even the outside kids/families are seeing past all the bravado, smoke and mirrors. Now the academy is taking trips to Sweden, and holding ‘camps’ in an effort to expand their customer base. American kids and Canadian kids aren’t taking the bait at the rate they would like. Sad part is there are some families up there right now paying top dollar while the director takes a vacation over seas to recruit said families replacements. Anyway, if you think USA hockey is evaluating players based on the pecking order the parents and organizations have the kids in, you’re wrong. Some of those guys roll their eyes at PPE. I’ve personally found the USA hockey process to be one of the more honest and respectable selection processes. Whether they are right or wrong about a kid, they aren’t taking a phone call from someone at PPE on who to advance. There certainly are other ‘prestigious’ camps and selective processes out there that parents, coaches, dad coaches, dad coaches buddies, parents money can all influence__ but mid am is not that by any stretch. Atleast not currently.

Pretty much all of bantam-midget is doing it. The precedent is passively aggressively set as early as squirts with the grade school version. Though PPE can’t afford to play games with the ones who don’t because they have a hard time finding 11 year old replacements from out of town. They will say you don’t have to do the academy in high school. Which is bullshit. If you don’t do it, they will find someone else who will. Unless they are in a pinch and have to make an exception. It’s a fluid situation based on their needs. They don’t say it flat out, but they very much communicate it in other ways. If you’re not a top player on the team and you don’t do it, you’re going to catch some blow back if they can’t find a replacement. However they will and usually do find a replacement. Hell, you may even want to do it but your replacement was being recruited anyway lol The kids who don’t do it have to get dressed in a separate locker room away from their team__ like lepers. Whether you’re a top player and you do it or not, you’re likely still going to get boned by all the promises made to the out of town kid and family to get them here. If you don’t do it, you can fully expect the favoritism to swing even more in the out of town kids favor. Every out of town kid does it. It’s the whole reason they’re here. They get sold a bill of goods, told how valued they are and it’s all enticing. That program preys on people with money, and good athletes. They know exactly what to do and say to really stroke the parents egos. Push them over the edge into sending their kid here. The kids in Cleveland spent last season skull fucking the PPE team they all should still be playing on. That’s how they feel.

I agree in principle. Sure you’re going to deal with the ‘real world’ during your come up in hockey. Happens everywhere at every level. However it really doesn’t have to be as hard as PPE makes it. Their unspoken requirements for their prep school cosplay, along with probably the shittiest culture in youth hockey shouldn’t be something anyone has to go through or be guided through. Again, that program has completely hijacked youth hockey in Pittsburgh. Their MO is clear as day. Enchant local mite, squirt and peewee families to help pay the bills and keep up the optics with my hockey rankings and such. Only to be led into bantam where being a local works against you. Your kid certainly may be good enough to be on the team, but the promises and back door deals made to bring outside kids into town have potential to negate whatever your kid brings to the table. If you don’t believe this Mr or Mrs squirt parents. Do your homework. 08’s, 07’s and 06’s have all fled the program. Mostly local kids. The hilarious part is the kids who come here from outside, get a dose of the PPE, and then get out of town as fast as they can once the season is over. The non-productive nature of sending your kid to a mediocre Catholic school with sky high demands, then forcing them to do workouts and skate 4 hours a day is crazy shit. The academy does not benefit any kid, it hurts kids in fact. There is not a single pro team, college team or junior team who spends that much time working out and practicing. The kicker is when the trainer starts his rant about rest and recovery and preventing overuse injuries. The only thing The Academy benefits is the justification for some comfy salaries. Yes your squirt is good. He may still be one of the best when he’s 13__ It just doesn’t matter, the optics and big dollars that come with Braxton from Team Wisconsin moving here are far more important. Along with all of the promises made to Braxtons parents about what his role will be. You’re just a local who they know isn’t going to go anywhere, so you’ll deal with it and like it. And the cycle repeats year after year after year and the squirt and peewee parents keeping paying and praying it won’t. Either the pro team needs to realize what the current iteration of PPE has done to the local scene and make changes OR some one needs to get through to the younger parents. Get them to see past wearing a pro teams jersey and collectively have the whole group go elsewhere in town. As well as ignoring the warnings and phone calls from the PPE about how they need to be in Cranberry if they want to succeed. Solution is simple. Reject them. You and your kid and all your kids little buddies on your AAU mite team will be better off, not only better off but you might even find some actual long term development somewhere else around town. Take a look past the some big name players coming out of town. See where they were actually developed or the resources they had outside of PPE. Good people and good families but unless your kid is a phenom and an identifiable potential NHL talent from early on (99% aren’t)___ you need to take a look at the results for the 99% coming out of PPE because that’s where your child falls. Your child does fall there too. Don’t care if he’s top 10 in the country in squirts, or peewees, playing on all the ‘elite’ spring teams__ he’s right there with a lot of other great players. The 1% are your top 10 NHL draft picks, most of which people could see when they were 9. Don’t be fooled by the slick talk on Twitter and social media though, the check ins with former players who did indeed move on. Do the math, what are the PPE producing verse other programs around the country. That program is a nightmare. You’re an idiot if you trust them with the long term development of your kid. At the very least, save your money through peewees and send them to a prep school down the line. Or better yet, get over the jersey, fancy rink and 5 star concession stand because that’s all it is. Get over the car decals and bragging on FB how your kid is a member of the club. Focus all of that energy on finding them good development. People who actually care about helping kids achieve dreams as opposed to extorting you of every dollar you have, and your kid being a ‘customer’.