Ynot02

Based on experience with my kids, PAHL actually does a decent job with placements. It’s not realistic to have that much data (15+ games) prior to placing teams. There will always be overlaps in ratings between teams at the top and bottom of each division. When there are significant misplacements, coaches/parents are usually a factor. If teams are losing every game, it’s likely they pushed to be placed in a higher division.

A few more placement games at the 12u level might help. Did the increase in games at the 10u level that was implemented a few years ago help? There is no decent player data coming out of ADM, so the extra games at that level should be making a difference. With a year of data on the books, it should be less of a factor at 12u.

PAHL always seems to be looking to volunteers for the placement committee. If you think the process is broken and have ideas for improvement, consider throwing your hat in the ring. 

MyHockey rules may be the reason the score isn’t included. This is from their FAQ: 

Games played by teams of different age levels (i.e. peewee vs. bantam) cannot be used to calculate a team's rating/ranking. There has traditionally been no reason to enter these games into MYHockey . Many members, however, have requested an ability to enter all of their game scores into the system. As such, MYHockey does allow games by teams of different age levels to be entered into the system by members, but this is not an option for those using the guest online entry form.

If that is really what you were asking, then you probably should have titled your post differently. However, if you really are “already dreading tryouts” in October, you really need to ask yourself why. 

In regard to SafeSport, sexual misconduct and child abuse are the most serious. Other violations, such as emotional misconduct, bullying, threats, harassment and hazing, have to show a PATTERN. A single incident will likely not result in a suspension. In regard to parents, banning from a rink or release from an organization is much more likely than a SafeSport investigation.

In my opinion, the MIDAM background screening requirement gives parents a false sense of security. Child related offenses are the focus, as they should be. However, a coach or volunteer can have other offenses ranging from minor (DUI) to severe (felonies for theft, threats, drugs, etc) and still pass the screening. 

I’ve watched many parents look the other way when issues arise with a coach. This isn’t just a case of hoping the coach will help them get into a junior program or on a college team. It can be as simple as their kid making a mid-level team with their friends. They don’t want to risk their kid’s happiness by saying something. It’s sad, but a reality. For parents to press an issue to the degree described in these posts tells me it’s not just retaliation for lack of playing time. 

It’s always interesting how a thread morphs into a totally different topic. 

If you want to see the actual scoresheet, ask your team manager. They are given a copy after the game. 

In regard to stats, if it isn’t coming from the ref, it shouldn’t be recorded. Yes, I’m saying that shots on goal shouldn’t be recorded on the scoresheet or put up on the board. Too many people keeping score or running the clock, as well as the parents in the stands, have no idea what a shot in goal actually is. It’s the most inaccurate stat in the game, but PIHL does a better job than most. 

I don’t like the rule and was curious about the impact as well, so I looked at the MS Comparative Formula file and compared it to the MS divisions for the year. Don’t hold me to my quick glance calculations, but it appears that last season there were 58 middle school teams. This season there are 50. 11 schools that had teams last season don’t have teams this season, and a few of those were a school’s “team 2”. This season there are 3 new teams - Avonworth, Knoch and North Catholic 2. Some may not think a loss of 8 teams isn’t that bad, but that’s still over 100 kids not playing MS hockey. 

6 hours ago, Pa Hockey said:

The schedule has been posted to the PIHL Site or will be over the weekend 

Hopefully they will at least post the home openers for the JV and MS divisions like they did for Varsity if they don’t have the full schedule posted soon.

I’m not a fan of the 25% rule at all. Don’t forget this isn’t a PIHL rule - it’s a MIDAM rule that applies to all Bantam age teams, amateur and school. 

21 minutes ago, twoboys said:

Shouldn’t you be upset with the PAHL programs for not giving the consumers what they want?  Thus, players and parents  to look elsewhere.  

 

And is really more like 50-60 U15 and 50-60 U16.  With something like 6-8 AA u16 teams you are doing something wrong if you have that many players and parents you are doing something wrong.

 

 

With the exception of Pens Elite, it’s the PAHL orgs who are rostering these AAA teams. So are the orgs not giving the consumers what they want, or is it more about PAHL?

I’m very aware of the trickle down impact. However, you aren’t going to educate someone who isn’t interested in listening. It’s the parents who are creating the demand for these teams in the first place. These orgs see an opportunity and are capitalizing on it. It’s a business, period. Hockey is far from the only sport where this is happening. You hit the nail on the head - until USA Hockey and MIDAM do something about it, this situation will exist. Even if a few people see the light after the season, there will be others to take their place. I don’t see anything changing before my kids are done, so I just choose to control what I can - aligning my kids talents with what is worth my time and money. These families are probably thinking the same thing. They think they are doing what is best for their kids, and who doesn’t want that? 

1 minute ago, jmmartinprov1 said:

Like the author of this thread!!

Yes! And many others. 

Why does everyone care how others choose to spend their money? What one person views as a money grab, others see as an opportunity. To each their own. All of these AAA teams are likely not AAA talent, but there is no point in degrading anyone or their choices. 

I always find it amazing that people with no affiliation with a team who heard “something from someone” feel so compelled by what they heard that they create a username and write a long, detailed post defending said team (that they don’t have a player on). ?

5 hours ago, HSFBLJ said:

Bantam Group 1

Allegheny 231

Foxes 267

Mt Lebo 353

North Pitt 451

Predators 410

Renegades 547

South Hills 320

Westmoreland 384

 

There is no mention of the Viper stars, BV or MV.  One of these team will likely get moved down after placement games.  Someone always wants to move up.  An 06 team playing with the 05's?

MyHockey rankings duplicates last year’s divisions when the new season is first live. That’s why you are seeing BV, Vipers and MV currently. They aren’t going to jump from Groups 2, 4 and 5 to AA. 

Anyone have the initial division alignments to share?

7 hours ago, whome87 said:

Im not angry, I’m a realist. Playing in the 14 u Pahl championship doesn’t mean much, especially when the kids that carried that team are not on your 04 predators team. You have kids that couldn’t make foxes team 1 or team 2. You have kids that played a minor Pahl last year with the aviators. The better kids on the team could not make ppe, esmark or icemen. Most of them tried out at said places. Your team barely had enough skaters at tryouts. If I was told correctly just everyone that tried out made it. It becomes a money grab because the talent to play “aaa” is not there but the predators still fielded a team for the money. Look to esmark, icemen & the vengeance. At certain birth years they didn’t have the talent to field “aaa” teams over the past years. Instead of slapping a team on the ice and taking the dreaming parents money they just didn’t field teams at those birth years. Esmark has been trying to build a 04 team for years but shut it down after tryouts every year until recently. The vengeance knew they didn’t have the talent to field 04 this year so they shut it down. The icemen have also done this in the past and they are what, 5 years old as a club ? 

Yes, it’s a money grab. 

The teams you mentioned didn’t field teams those years because they didn’t have the numbers. If they had the numbers, they would have fielded teams REGARDLESS of the talent level. Some people just care about their kids having the AAA designation, and these organizations know and capitalize on that. 

From the PAHL website:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vREo1g3uRaOJrhUxI4vysLS1yAPiT15492TLRBb_cVk0GOVj_4sVQ2K-V1Busm1ti8JzxmOVltlcYuV/pubhtml#

https://www.pihlhockey.com/filesforms

The primary issue is there is no official “middle school” classification. The Classification is the age of play. High school includes only High School programs (Varsity and Junior Varsity). Elementary School and Middle School programs must be shown as the USA Hockey-defined Classification, i.e., 8U, 10U, etc., using the USA Hockey age classifications for these teams. The team is classified based on the age of the oldest player on the roster. In the case of middle school, that is 14U/Bantam. Any 2007s are considered 12U that are playing up, therefore MIDAM is restricting the amount of players that can play up. The rule applies to amateur and school teams. It makes some sense for amateur, but not for middle school - but there is no difference in how it is applied. It’s a PIHL rule that there is no checking at this age group. MIDAM isn’t going to change the entire rule to accommodate school hockey, unfortunately. 

Is there any connection to the Appalachian Elite? Looking at their website, it looks like they pull from the same area. 

It’s 25% of your total rostered # of players - not the max possible roster. So if you have a small program it hits hard. For example, a 12-13 player roster only allows for 3 2007s. Several schools aren’t able to field MS teams this season due to the way the rule is now interpreted. 

Something to keep in mind, regardless of if you have a son or daughter playing, is that for-profit organizations (Pens, Selects, Vengeance, Icemen, etc) have one primary concern - making money and filling their ice slots, especially if they have an ownership interest in the rink. Fielding competitive teams and developing players is secondary. Pens are known for not caring where the players come from, if it makes their teams more competitive. Their success shows that it works for them, like it or not. 

It would be safe to bet that all of those for-profit teams have bench warmers. If you want to play at that perceived higher level, equal playing time is not guaranteed. Offering “Black” or “Minor” teams is no guarantee of development either. They often perform at a lower level than PAHL teams, at a higher price tag and time commitment. Their “development” is playing teams well above their skill level in hopes they will push themselves harder and somehow get better. It’s an approach that rarely works. 

I haven’t met anyone cut from the Pens have a good thing to say afterward. I’m sure it stings, especially if you’ve been there for awhile. However, cutting an org down and then immediately trying to build up another org really doesn’t reflect positively on the org that you are trying to promote. Consider that before venting.

There is an organization out there to fit everyone’s needs. Do your research to find what makes sense for you. 

It is better that an organization decide that their tryout only yielded 13 skaters at the level they need to compete at AAA then to just fill a roster with whoever shows up. The latter just creates the “faux AAA” teams that have been a big complaint on this board for years. 

I wouldn’t classify Kiski Prep as a “hockey prep” school. It’s as a very high end prep school ($50K+ per year) that happens to offer hockey as an athletics option. 

Agree. It’s time to start blocking IP addresses. 

Of course, we can all do our part as well by not feeding the troll. 

Tryout results so far just list 2 teams both called “elite” with coach names - neither team designated as black. Are they really using this approach, and if so, are people accepting their spots?