LGP13

14 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

Sounds like you might be one of the crazy parents if you are defending that kind of behavior from adults at a peewee game ?

I think defending bad behavior and pointing out that what an anonymous person said on a public forum "might" be skewed to their PoV are two different things. Especially when they are a parent from the other side.

I am a parent, and I wasn't at the game that we lost so I can't speak to any claims there. But I was at the game where a player from Mt. Lebo engaged with parents in front of his coach and they did nothing. A 12-year-old kid, yelling obscenities at parents that are spectating the game... I was also at the game were said kid again engaged parents in the stands after a loss and still nothing. Again, not defending the behavior of the parents yelling back at the kid, better to just ignore and laugh like I did. What control does a coach have over his team and players that he lets them engage with spectators? As far as the parents getting thrown out on two occasions, I wasn't at the game that was a loss, so I don't know what happened. The 2nd game, a parent of a kid who repeatedly got punched in the face by 3 players until he was visibly bleeding (see it from the stands) while a 10-year-old ref tried to get three 12-year-olds off him... Ya, you might have to throw me out of that game too if it was my kid getting punched in the face. 

Again, victim mentality. We did nothing wrong and the parents were savages!!!! 

58 minutes ago, Jkersman01 said:

Good timing- was just checking out the board when I saw this. They do have a nice group of players- a good team for sure. They might be very well building a solid program. My comment had nothing to do with the players, coaches, or organization for that matter. That's why I limited it to a specific team.

As to the parents this year, I wasn't going to get into details and hoping a passing comment would be enough of a contribution to this discussion, but since you asked and want support because you might be challenging my statement (and this is all first hand knowledge)-

-Yelling and taunting a kid from another team on the ice during a game, as he walked off, and making comments to him while he walked through the lobby

-Screaming at their team to "take out #..." when they were losing

-Having a parent, during the handshake line, yell "girls shouldn't be playing hockey" to the 2 girls on the opposing team in a game they lost

-Parents, on 2 occasions in just 3 games I saw, got kicked out of the stands for going at the refs (verbally)

 

My point of "taking the cake" is that at 11-12 years old, I've never seen parents, during and after a game, taunting and interacting with the opposing team's players like they did. 

Holy victim mentality... guess you shouldn't expect anything less from Mt. Lebo. Sorry you couldn't buy your wins.

I have been taking my son to the tryouts every year regardless of the outcome. He too, pushes for PPE every year. It is good for kids to have goals and try to achieve them if they make it or not. So, from a development of a player/person standpoint you are teaching your kid to make goals and work toward them even if you never achieve them, it instills the work ethic to strive for something. This of course, is if it is in fact your kid asking to tryout and it is HIS goal to make the team.

From a logical standpoint, I also have no qualms doing it every year because it is roughly 50$ an ice slot against the "best" kids in the area. It gives my kid a measuring stick, is a reasonability priced ice session with and against high skilled players, and if nothing else gives him a leg up for the next tryout he does for whichever team he ends up making it on.

Win/win/win/win. for $170? I'll do that every time.

Edit: Spelling

10 hours ago, forbin said:

SCIR, Vengeance, Aviators, Vipers/Stars, Steel City Selects, Young Foxes, Fox Chapel, Deer Lakes, Shaler, Central Catholic, Duquesne, and Pitt  plus learn to play, figure skating and public skate all ion 3 sheets of ice. I do not pity the rink scheduler and the organization schedulers that’s for sure.

I don't believe they have a contract in place yet for ice at Alpha. This flyer is just for tryouts which they secured ice to perform at Alpha. I feel for the Vipers and their situation, but if they don't have a "home" yet and are holding tryouts somewhere that might not be where they play out of, that's pretty misleading and unscrupulous. They should note on their tryout flyer that Alpha is where they are holding tryouts, but practices and home rink might be in Belmont or some other non-BB rink that they haven't secured yet.

1 hour ago, zam said:

I'd imagine if they own multiple rinks in a region and ice utilization drops they will consolidate all the teams and programs into other rinks and shut one down.  They won't sell it to someone else to compete with them as an ice rink. It will become a Christian church or a YMCA like the last couple rinks in the area that couldn't find a buyer.

AAU is the work around for fielding full ice mite teams.  The programs that compete as sanctioned USA Hockey teams aren't going to compete full ice. They will spin off a separate program that roster AAU.  And they will claim no affiliation.  They are the Pittsburgh Icemen when they compete at USA hockey events, and they have a separate Pittsburgh Snowmen jersey for when they compete Full ice mite.  (Before you all go look for Tryout dates for the Snowmen, it's not a real thing, just an example) lol

 

 

I've refrained from responding to this nonsense, but since it is gaining traction, I felt like I'd add my 2 cents.

This is criminal all the way around. First there are people who are taking advantage of parents who don't know any better, and then there are parents who actually think that full ice mites are a great idea and support this travesty. USA hockey revamped the way they train and grow our youth. If anyone is a coach, they have seen the CEP classes that basically explain how USA sucked at development, so they paid experts to examine Canada, Sweden, Russia, all the other great hockey countries and see what they were doing differently than us. It comes down to the size of the rink/nets and play surface, which effects the puck touches and development of the kids. Full ice minimizes the amount of puck touches the kids get per game/practice, which in turn slows or hinders their development. Basically, have small kids on a huge playing surface that takes the "game" out of the game. I won't even go down the path of goalies and having 3-foot players in a 4x6 net.

I feel like most everyone in here is on the same page with this and understand why full ice mites isn't optimal at all. The people that are selling this "product" should be ashamed of themselves and the parents that think it is a great idea to "make their kid better" deserve what they are getting. Overpriced experience, with less development, and absolutely no upside.

12 hours ago, Jkersman01 said:

As you guessed I have no idea what they have. But like Pucks said, I made a rather fundamental assumption that if PIHL had paperwork that approved this player, we wouldn’t have gotten to where we are now, and that the hearings would have produced this and montour would be just fine.  If PIHL does have such paperwork, wow, this is an even bigger mess and Montour is entirely a victim. I put the odds of that rather low, though, based on getting to where we are now.

I don’t know that group personally, but have practiced law for a while. When representing a plaintiff in a civil suit, especially such as here were the fee is presumably either pro bono or hourly (so it’s not tied to percentages of damages), attorneys take cases for any number of reasons. I think it is unfair that just because what might very well be a reputable firm took this case, means there is a proverbial smoking gun. 

Yes, but what would be PIHL's angle? What or why could they possibly want to screw Montour out of playing in the playoffs? They really have no reason to DQ Montour unless they believe that the rules of their organization that all these teams play in weren't followed, and the only reason they would do that is to protect the other teams/kids that play in their organization from getting cheated somehow.

All this said I do feel bad for the kids at Montour. Adults ruining it for kids... Apparently, they have a strong team. Would they still have to of had to move up a division to AA if all the paperwork was correct and the kid was approved to play? Curious how they would have done playing all season up a division if they had to. If they wouldn't have had to and could have stayed at A with the kid on the team and the only issue here is the paperwork that wasn't properly done... then wow. Really feel bad for the kids.

32 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

The kid in question is not here on a education visa through USA hockey  - he’s from a different state.

I assumed, from everyone saying he played at Esmark. My mistake. Most of what I said is still relevant.

17 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Do any of the Black team kids make Gold the next year?

 

Sometimes.

18 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So why do they quit fielding black teams at 14U?

At younger ages kids are still developing, actually probably even past 14U. They most likely quit because they have a solid idea of who will be on the team at that point. At younger ages you can still keep parents (money) roped into the organization to sell the dream. As they get older and parents start to catch on they understand you need to try elsewhere if you aren't on the gold team. If PPE continued to field a black team it would probably be full of "lesser talented" kids and not yield the ratings and persona to continue the business model.

10 hours ago, Stackthepads said:

Do people honestly believe that a billet would welcome a kid into their home for PIHL high school hockey purposes?  We do all realize that for aaa players, PIHL hockey is a huge step down correct?  Kids play to have fun with their school friends.  There is nothing to gain by performing well at high school hockey in PA.  Last time I checked there are no scouts or coaches in attendance.  Accusations like these are insulting to anyone who has ever billeted a hockey player.  I know many people who have served as a billet and trust me most do not have any hidden agenda.  Worried about winning in PA high school hockey- give me a break!  Also, where do you get the nerve to insult someone’s kid in your post.  Just looked at the stats and the “horrible” kid you describe started half of the games and was 7-3.  Does that qualify as horrible?  Not in my book.  This entire situation shows the issues with youth athletics.  Is it not ok for a young kid to make the bold decision to leave his family to perhaps pursue a dream of higher-level hockey, attend a completely new school as a freshman, want to represent his school and most importantly create new friendships through sports?  Can’t speak to the exact details of the appropriate process or paperwork that perhaps needed to be involved, but this seems to go against everything that youth sports is supposed to be about- building bonds and teaching life lessons.  Grow up people. 

I think from a logical standpoint you have to agree with what Montour is arguing in this situation. This kid is here on a visa from another country (correct?) and for the most part all he knows is his club team he plays for. If the billet he lives with, lives in the school district and that is the school he goes to_ this could be his only real outlet to connect with kids that he goes to school with. Imagine moving across the world to play hockey as a young kid, billeting with people you barely know, going to school with kids you don't know and have to adapt to their culture. Probably doesn't speak the language well. His team and hockey are the only thing he can use to connect with the kids around his age and school. The only thing that the kid is thinking is that he wants to play hockey for the school he goes to so he can use it to create bonds and friendships with the other kids. You are all right no one comes here to play PIHL hockey, but if a kid that has nothing in a foreign land can use it as a tool to connect and bond with the people he is living with_ I'd say that's waaayy bigger and more important than the actual game itself.

Now with that said, I think we all have to understand that there are people that don't really have empathy for anyone else and their motives are all about what can benefit them. To think that someone won't use loopholes or break the rules to benefit themselves is foolish. That's why there are rules in place for situations like this. Like a previous poster said, I really do hope everything checks out and the rules were followed, because if they weren't the ripple effect of someone trying to manipulate the situation to benefit themselves for single a high school hockey in western PA is really damaging. The foreign kid that was trying to use the sport he plays to build a bond with his school and peers will now be vilified if they get disqualified and it will create an opposite effect.  He'll feel terrible because all he knows is he was trying to find something in common with people and use it to "star status" himself at a school where he knows no one. All the other kids on the team that worked hard to make the playoffs for their school team will now not be able to play in them...what if they are seniors... That is a lot to risk breaking the rules. On the flip side the same set of standards goes for the teams that wouldn't make the playoffs. Imagine being a senior on that team and a rival team suddenly gets an elite goalie and they nearly go undefeated as they push you from the playoffs. That doesn't seem fair either.

As long as the rules were followed there should be a paper trail. Through the school's team board, through PIHLs board. This is why rules are put in place, because while it does seem silly to not "just let the kid play" you need to think of the other teams and kids that are affected by that statement. Especially if it is someone that_ someone else is basically using to benefit themselves or coaching resume.  I don't know if that is the situation, but again, follow the rules. Don't cheat. Do the right thing.

23 hours ago, kid310050 said:

I wonder where they intend to put all these teams? There isn't enough ice for Alpha to have both Renegades and 16 Aviators teams

While that is a good question, I'm curious what the Renegades numbers have looked like since the Aviators have arrived at Alpha. If Renegades are losing teams because kids are going to Aviators it's not really an influx. Same amount of kids, just shuffling the logos on their jerseys.

*edit spelling

11 minutes ago, rock said:

supposedly esmark is taking over the viper stars teams fielding AA under esmark and staying at PIA for the next few years, and vipers will be going to split ice at harmer and shady side academy. that's the last rumor i heard.  take it for what its with, a rumor. nothing concrete from my understanding.

 

 

 

 

I find this hard to believe. Alpha has to be at full or near full capacity. If Esmark retains the AA teams at New Ken, that means this would affect strictly the A/B teams. Further travel, more money (ice cost) for the lower divisions that just want to play hockey? If those parents were smart they would see this as really dumb and just change the logo on their jersey to the dog.

I've never been involved, so excuse my ignorance. Is the excel school and the prep school mandatory to play PPE? Like you can't just try out for the PPE program, make it, and attend the scheduled program functions? How do they force you to do the excel program and Prep school if you aren't interested in them or don't have the money/means to? It seems pretty crazy to me that if a kid was talented enough to go to tryouts and make the team that he would be turned away because him and his family couldn't afford to do Excel/Prep in addition to the lofty PPE tuition? 

14 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

The big question is how much control BB has over Esmark. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this. Can BB of force Esmark to move to Printscape? I'm not sure. But if Printscape does open that second sheet of ice, you better believe that BB has some plans about how they intend to fill all that ice time. Could be schools, could be more South Pgh teams, cold be Esmark moving, could be a new Black Bear Tier 1 program like they run down in Maryland. Who knows.

None?

I see these comments on here all the time about Esmark and BB and rink rumors. I may not be correct in this, but I'm under the impression that there isn't any_ and Esmark operates under its own set of rules like its own entity. I heard awhile back that the only reason Esmark is at New Ken and with NHAHA is because they use NHAHAs licenses and insurances. Pair that with the fact they are at New Ken where (at the time) the ice was cheaper. It's a win/win for NHAHA and Esmark as unknowing parents might enroll their kids into the program thinking that the Vipers feed into Esmark. NHAHA definitely gains revenue from being paired with Esmark and in turn Esmark uses them. 

So Esmark is only tied to New Ken to generate the most money (cheap ice, tied to NHAHA, MAYBE grab a kid east of the city). So while BB buys all these rinks they are only trying to get the organizations to have a monopoly. You think BB really wanted Rostraver? gtfoh. They wanted to snatch up any organizations that could possibly run out of rinks that they don't own. They are going to throw some paint on the walls and keep their rink grabbing moving. The more organization logos you can throw on your posters for your league_ the better it looks and once you own most of the rinks in the area no one will have anywhere to go and you dictate the ice cost.

That being said, I don't believe that Esmark is locked in to being with NHAHA. As soon as BB makes it non-profitable for Esmark or cuts into their profits too much I wouldn't be shocked if Esmark cuts from NHAHA and aligns with someone else. NHAHA on the other hand is pretty much stuck at New Ken and a BB rink where they will control everything now.

I think everyone looks at NHAHA and Esmark like a tier system because that's how they sell it. Vipers > Viper stars > Esmark. I look at it like Vipers and NHAHA are the organization at New Ken. Stars were fabricated to be a bridge between Vipers and Esmark but are really just a way to get more money out of the better players there, and Esmark is a AAA organization that pretty much does what they want at the top. With everyone using each other along the way. At the end of the day these are all businesses trying to make money. I would be shocked if anyone could name 1 kid that went from Vipers to Esmark in the last 10 years.

I'm not saying that the level of hockey being played, coached isn't worth the money_ and it's everyone choice on how to spend theirs. I'm simply saying that these are businesses, and they are here to make money. If BB makes it so Esmark can't make their money then they will try to find another way/place to do it. Do you think Esmark cares where the home rink location is? Unless it has an effect on the kids (money) they can pull in_ they don't care.  Esmark is in a unique situation being tied in with NHAHA and I think there is a balancing of pros and cons probably happening to find out if it is worth it to separate and move to another place/organization. Honestly this probably happens consistently with ever changing variables, but I think you guys need to realize that the determining factor is always the money. Not the kids, not the hockey, not the rink location, not the organizations, not the rink owners. The sooner you figure that out the easier it is to understand everything that happens/is happening.

Does anyone have any insight into these programs? It is advertised as an elite, "68" selection program. It seems like it might just be an expensive 3 day camp.

16 hours ago, ZingerHockey said:

Try to do your research.  Typically, if an advisor thinks you're good enough or have the potential they will find/reach out to you.  If you have to contact them, then it means they aren't looking at your player right now.  The biggest red flag is if they ask you for money, if they do that run for the hills.  Use your organization as a filter as well to see which ones are legit versus the ones that aren't, or other players that might have advisors to get their feedback.  The right advisor will help you out a lot depending on what your goals are (college, OHL, WHL etc...).  They will have contacts with all the teams and schools and will give you feedback on any schools/jr teams that have interest.  Best thing is, they are 100% honest with you so your not wasting their time, but more importantly your own.  Good luck

I agree with most of your quote. If a player is good enough then people come find you, you don't have to go searching. I do question "if they ask you for money, if they do that run for the hills." Could you clarify that? Personally, I don't have a ton of money to throw around, so I have to deem it necessary to myself before I spend on anything. So these "advisors" do it for free?

15 hours ago, forbin said:

Do me a favor a take a look at handful of local organizations websites and try to find out information about their program details….not saying some don’t have some info on there, but it ain’t pretty. 

My misunderstanding, I initially thought you were trying to say you couldn't find any information at all. If you dig enough the information is available, but yes, I agree with you.

3 hours ago, forbin said:

Yes, and more organizations need to clearly communicate what to expect from them on their website. Like tell us how many practices a week we will get, roughly how many games, tournaments etc we plan to play in. Cost of uniforms, extra required equipment, whatever else in needed. Total season fees, who the coaches are. 

It’s like they all try to hide it from everyone else. If you want to switch organizations, or are a brand new parent to hockey, it’s extremely off putting to go to a website and get ZERO information, and then scour through the pages to find a contact to email, only to either not get a response at all or get a vague one weeks later. 

Just put the information out there and let people make their decision. It might help motivate other organizations to realize why they are losing people and change their ways a bit. Why are organizations afraid of doing this? 

I've literally never had this problem and I have 3 kids playing. That being said I also don't look at other organizations outside of my comfort level of driving distance for practices.

This is a terrible idea.

Speaking personally my child stayed with a team for the last few years, same coach. We recently changed programs and having a new coach has done great things for my kid's development. Fresh voice, varying coaching philosophies, etc. Everyone preaches to let players have creativity on the ice, now you want to pigeon hole kids into programs that might run things one way? I'm sure the kid that makes plays east to west and opens room for his teammates would love to play on a team that just dumps and chases because their 95 year old coach did that when he played and there is no other way to play the game.

My piece of advise for anyone on here, look for a team that has a great coach that will push and teach your kid the game, let them be creative and have fun. Who cares what logo is on the front of the jersey or any accolades that might come with it. Of course finding a team is largely based off what your kid wants. If he wants to stay with friends and play then you have to take that into consideration, but forcing kids to play on teams based off where they live is not a good idea at all.

RJ Umberger played a few seasons at Plum, then Ohio State, NHL

Sean Berkstresser played at Kiski, Hornets & Forge, RMU, ECHL

Zach Tatrn played for Burrell, Preds, OHL(Petes), Mostly SPHL after that, but a season at ECHL, USHL, NAHL each.

8 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

Tim Ford of USC played at Ferris State. Not sure what level they were then but were definitely NCAA. DK where he played Amateur.

 

Did this guy play for Kittanning at all in the 90s? I remember playing against a  "Ford", I tried to hit him in the corner and got nothing but glass and he shelved my goalie.

On 8/12/2022 at 3:13 PM, RJUSHL said:

South Pittsburgh '10, SHAHA '09, and YETI '09 just at first glance. South Pittsburgh '10 may have already been independent, but I think SHAHA '09 and Yeti '09 were PAHL teams last year. Could be wrong.

South Pittsburgh 2010 was independent last year. SHAHA '09 was AA PAHL and very successful. Yeti '09 was AA PAHL and not very good.

On 8/12/2022 at 3:22 PM, TeamRamRod said:

I think South Pittsburgh '10 may be playing PAHL now.  I looked at the schedule of placement games and they now have a team playing 2 AA placement games.  Maybe a late add?  Yeti's Peewee AA team from last year I think is broken up between the 2 Yetis bantam teams and some made the 09 Icemen, who are playing independent AA.  That team seems to be some Yeti's, Foxes, and NP players.  I also heard from a buddy that the 2010 Yeti BY team is playing independent, which seems odd because they'd definitely face good competition in PAHL if they stuck around.  

I believe I saw South Pittsburgh on the PAHL placement game schedule as well. Hopefully it's the 2010 team that came to their senses. I would love to know what magic they are performing in Butler that their teams that are bad the previous year jump up divisions the next? Maybe they are just out of touch, the South Pittsburgh '10 team was a good PAHL team and went independent last year. What happens if you are just a good PAHL team, and not really AAA is, when you go independent no one wants to play you if your rating is substantially lower because teams don't want to risk their rating to play you. I imagine that this is what South Pitt ran into and couldn't find games to play. Yeti's will have the same problem, basically you'd just have to register for a bunch of tournaments and play out of town all the time and spend much more money than you would have if you just stayed in your lane played PAHL and played a few tournys. Yetis '10 going independent... I have no words.

On 8/12/2022 at 3:41 PM, aaaahockey said:

That's kind of why I'm curious. I heard they did pretty well last year.  Did they retain the team?  Lose kids?  Pick up anyone?  Think PAHL would be better at the major birthyear?  

If anything I expected them to stay independent this year because they did get some imports from the PPE black dismantle year. So they are going to be a better team playing back in PAHL.

3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

It's interesting how many teams are no longer on this list. PAHL could make a few common sense changes to help prevent teams from jumping ship and going independent. The less that happens, the better it is for Pittsburgh youth hockey.

Never going to happen. You are correct that it is better for youth hockey in Pittsburgh, but I don't think it is anything that PAHL can control. You can't stop teams from jumping ship and going independent. Anyone can do it, look at how many have already. Save from a few AAA teams at each level that need to go independent to get competitive games there is really no reason for teams to play independent.

The problem lies in the allure of the people (making money off hockey) selling independent teams to parents and clubs. They hide their fees and profits in the costs associated with being independent to make money, while selling the idea of somehow their team is better than everything in the area so we need to travel (add more profit) to other states to play better teams.

It has started at the low levels, everyone is independent self proclaimed AAA, when in reality all but 1 or 2 teams are just good AA players.  Then by the time teams are at 15u/16u some teams need to go independent because that actually IS the case because any competition that would have been in PAHL is playing on some other independent team on the other side of the city.

5 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

You have the initial placements?

I saw them off a friend's phone. I don't have them.

11 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Anyone have the initial PAHL placements?

Lots of interesting initial placements from what I've seen. Can't wait to see what everyone says lol