AMR24

I think the Yeti’s have a decent chance of being AA. The others? I’m not so sure. Huskies are now also pushing the 16U to be AA.

The problem I see this year is a lot of organizations are just focusing on BY/AA. They’re excluding the A/B players who are just trying to play their PAHL schedule with their friends. I feel like their options are dwindling. And if it’s not that, the cost of some of these organizations are driving people to stop playing. 

6 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Well I guess that settles that. Thanks for chiming in.

Is it games at one, practices at another? How do you plan on managing this and selling it to potential players and families?

This is NOT Yuri. And, to my knowledge, there is no talk of splitting ice between the 2 rinks.

On 2/2/2023 at 9:35 AM, LGP13 said:

I find this hard to believe. Alpha has to be at full or near full capacity. If Esmark retains the AA teams at New Ken, that means this would affect strictly the A/B teams. Further travel, more money (ice cost) for the lower divisions that just want to play hockey? If those parents were smart they would see this as really dumb and just change the logo on their jersey to the dog.

Yes, Vipers will have ice at Alpha/Shadyside side. Vipers will be having tryouts.  We are working on dates and budgets now. The Vipers program will not be changing, just relocating.

Yes, the plan is for Esmark to “expand” to AA teams, essentially absorbing the Viper Stars teams. Black Bear has said REPEATEDLY that they’d “support Esmark in any capacity” so the hope/plan is they extend whatever ice time is needed in order for this to occur.

We are doing our best to make the best out of a very crappy situation. 

@No Politics, maybe I’m just cynical. I’ve been involved with dek hockey for over 10 years, building up an organization. And if you think ice hockey has politics, spend a summer on a tournament dek hockey team or sit in on a board meeting for the league. It’s astonishing. Maybe I’m just worn down. I just have heard the phrase “I want my kid on a higher level team” so many times. And, like most things, the negative stuff just sticks and rings in your head, ya know.

End of day, I’m not opposed to the Black Bear model. I just honestly don’t think think they are the best ones for the job. I’ve spent time in meetings listening to them. Once they get Huskies up and running, they’ll move on and leave it to the parents to run. You will still have the parent coach who plays their kid too much. And your complaint will fall into deaf ears because by that time, they’ve moved on and their energy will be focused on their next conquest.

I’m not sure how to phrase this so bare with me a minute…

1 thing we haven’t brought into the conversation is perception. What’s that saying? A person’s perception is their reality.

I have been around a long time. My oldest has played at 3 different organizations and from B hockey to college. I have seen a ton of legit concerns and a ton of perceived concerns. 

We’ve all heard “that kid is only on that team because his parents are (fill in the blank)”. And, in some cases, it’s legit. Sometimes, it is not. But to the person that believes that statement, whether true or false, that is their reality. And their decisions are based on their own reality.

Same goes with the parents who organization shop. It’s usually done on the perception that they can get on a higher level team elsewhere. And this does happen way more often than not. I can sit here and think of at least a dozen families I personally know from different organizations that my youngest has played with/against that has said “we wanted him/her on a higher team so we left”. Sometimes it works in their favor, sometimes it doesn’t. I see it in ice and dek. It is the nature of the beast. Now a days, parents want their kids to be the best at everything and have the means/options to make that happen.

So when we talk about politics within a board, we can’t ignore the fact that some things viewed as political/self serving may not necessarily be that. 

3 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Interesting perspective @Deke715, thanks for sharing.

In the NAHA talks with Black Bear, was AHF discussed? Did they make it clear they had the intention of moving NAHA out of PAHL and into the AHF?

Did you get any sense that Esmark was on the move to a new a new rink (Printscape) like some others have speculated?

The Esmark rumor going to Printscape or any other rink has been around for years so I personally put no stock in it whatsoever. 
 

As for BB, when we asked about PAHL, we were told “we will handle PAHL” and when asked to elaborate we were told again “don’t worry, we will handle PAHL”. There were no definitive details given by them on anything, actually. Personally, I now believe these meetings were all smoke and mirrors to keep us on the line incase Huskies fell through. So, they didn’t give very many details other than how much their investors spent.

Well, this escalated quickly…Shame because it was 1 of the better posts on here…great discussion and communication…

Just know, Black Bear is aiming to buy all non municipal rinks in this area. This conversation will continue for a long time, especially as we see it play out in the long run. I just warn anyone who is in talks with them now or in the future to use extreme caution and don’t let your guard down or you may find your teams without ice. They told us they’d rather see a rink sit empty than not have control of the teams using their rinks.

2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

I read the PIA website where the Huskies are going to have teams up to 18U.  Where are those players going to come from?  Will the players on the Vipers and the Viper Stars now become Huskies?  How good are the chances that NHAHA finds a home for next year?    

I’ve had several people reach out to me. Black Bear believes that many from NHAHA will stay and the Huskies will absorb them. There has also been rumors of Renegade kids and Aviator kids coming over. But it’s all rumor. No one really knows. Tryout season will be interesting this season for sure! We are actively looking for ice. NHAHA intends on having a new home for our teams. That’s is our goal. How that will that look? I have no clue. But we are trying.

You are correct, what’s good for 1 isn’t good for all. I do believe that. And maybe I will be proven wrong and this will be a good thing. That is all yet to be seen.

I did not sit in on the earlier meetings when they 1st took over so I can’t speak to how that went. The most recent meetings were hostile on both sides at times. There were several of us that were able to minimize that on both sides. So we believed the meetings were going in a better direction. Even a couple of the Black Bear employees thought it was going well. It came down to control, neither wanted the other to have full control but for very different reasons.

And, yes, some of it did sting when we were repeatedly told “you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re just a volunteer “. Speaking for myself, I take pride in what I do. Whether it’s working at my 40 hour a week job or the 10 plus hours a week I donate to the organization. To be told I’m of no value because I don’t do this full time is demoralizing. I have been on this board and helped build a successful dek organization on another. I have value and skills that are of use. So, yeah, ego definitely pops up and emotions get riled up.

In the long run, I just don’t see the value in having what they are creating…cookie cutter rinks at every turn. Yes the Rebellion are growing BUT Black Bear does not own Rebellion. They are still in negotiations and have pretty much left them to their own. Rebellion did that all on volunteer run hours and effort. I cannot speak for Phantoms as I do not follow them as much. 

There is value in both aspects…volunteer and paid professionals…so why can there not be a middleman ground? Which was our last proposal to Black Bear and is similar to what they do with Badgers but the did not even counter offer, just kicked 2/3rds of the organization out. That is just something I do not understand. 

43 minutes ago, No Politics said:

AMR, you may be right.  I can tell you that as a parent, I had to watch my children play for multiple organizations over their youth careers and I always wondered how adults could muck up something so simple, though.  That is why I am actually interested in seeing if Black Bear's model would work.

What we have obviously isn't working.  My eldest son, for example, started playing when he was seven years-old, and only had TWO seasons that could be described as fun (first year of 8U, and second year of 12U).  All his coaches said he was a good kid, he was a talented player, and he never had any desire to be anything more than an A-level player no matter how much he was asked to play at higher levels.  He just loved playing hockey and being with his friends.  That poor kid took every jab the adult dad coaches (and the boards who supported them even after receiving tons of complaints about the same coaches) gave him, and only ONCE got upset in his entire "career."  Rightfully so, too.

So you asked how you address politics.  I assume you are on a board.  I am, too (just not a hockey board... soccer).  Here's the question I would ask you and all the other board members from ANY organization who may see this, and which I ask my board all the time:  Do you care more about developing these kids and the organization over the long-term, or are you looking to do what is best for only your child, their friends, and/or those people who are in your personal clique?

No one is going to admit that they took the selfish route.  No one.  But many did (and do).  It's all about ego, right?  So if Black Bear is all about money, at least it's not ego.  Unlike a board that doesn't care about dysfunction in their organization as long as their kids and their friends are okay, Black Bear (or any other unorthodox organizational management unit) technically would, right?  Because every family that leaves means less money for them.

That, to me, is the difference.  They have a vested interest in succeeding.  Parent-run organizations don't.  A terrible board president, for example, could ruin an organization, then simply take their kid somewhere else.  Every family that leaves could be written off as "troublemakers" or labeled "that family who jumps around all the time."  It costs that president NOTHING personally (other than a lot of bad karma!), whereas it would cost Black Bear everything if they don't fix it.

Just my observation and speculation, though!

I just really don’t think Black Bear will be all that involved in a year or two. They’ll make a good showing the 1st year then move onto the next conquest. Now, if it was a corporation taking over just 1 rink, not 34, maybe they could make a difference. But I just don’t see it here. They’re too big to care about 1 rink. And reading reviews from other organizations they’ve taken over, the outcome is never good.

I am on the NHAHA board. Nothing big, but there none the less. And I didn’t even seek it out. A job needed filled that someone asked if I could do. Knowing little to nothing about the NHAHA board,  I said sure thinking I’d just be doing the job. It wasn’t until a little while later I learned it was a job that came w a board position. So I didn’t start on the board with any other reason than to help. Now that I’m there, I believe I’m in it for the whole organization. My vested interest is seeing it grow, players develop, and for NHAHA to be seen as successful.
 

But do I have a bit of selfishness in me? Sure, we all do. My selfishness is to see that my son continues to have a team/organization to finish his “career “ at. I’m not looking for him to climb the extra A ladder. I’m not looking for him to be on the best team. I’m wanting him to remain in an organization and with teams that 95% of his friends are at.

I have 2 kids. My oldest wanted to climb the ladder. He did B, A, AA, AAA and is now playing ACHA D3 hockey. My youngest thought he wanted that. He made the 08 team and it was a disaster. I can give all the reasons but they aren’t the point. The point is it broke him. Therapy needing broke him. It’s taken a couple of years but he’s finally back smiling and having fun on the ice with his A level team. That’s what I work so hard for…to keep that. To keep him where he is happy and thrives. There were 2 other kids on that 08 team that had similar issues as my son. They are on his team now. They are smiling, happy and enjoying the game. That’s what I want to see continue. I’m not looking for anything but a place for these kids to be able to continue to play the sport they live with their friends they’ve had since ADM. 
 
Again, I see merit in an organization coming in. I do see it’s strong points. I just don’t think Black Bear with their 34 rink empire is the answer. A little hole in the wall rink in New Kensington PA is never going to make them millions of dollars. It’s probably 1 of the easiest ones for them to forget about.

18 hours ago, No Politics said:

I don't know enough about Black Bear to state an educated opinion on them, but I will say this:  I was reading this chain and signed up for this message board today.  I took the name "No Politics" for a reason.  My child is a teen who knows tons of kids from many different programs (including the Vipers/Stars/Esmark), and politics like a president/VP/board member's kid and their friends getting special treatment, extra ice time, etc. kills these programs.  

Parents aren't as stupid or obnoxious as everyone makes them out to be.  Contrary to popular belief, most parents I know don't want their kid to play AAA (or even AA).  They just want their kid to play where they actually belong, and have fun without political crap like a team manager dictating tournaments that benefits THEIR family instead of the majority of the TEAM'S families, dads coaching just to give their less-talented kids more ice time, and boards who ignore it all because they are friends with those hacks.  

If a corporation like Black Bear solves these problem by looking at the bottom line ($$$) instead of playing favorites and creating an intra-organization (or even intra-team) "haves and have nots" culture that ruins the sport for the kids and their families, then I am in favor of it.

I thought I posted on this last night but now I don’t see it. Ugh. Let me try again…lol…

Every organization has the dynamic of politics. Every organization, every sport…always has. How do you correct that? I don’t know. But I don’t think Black Bear is the solution. End of day, their “paid coaches” are still parent coaches who receive a stipend for their time…their kid plays free. Honestly, I think that’s a great idea because more people will volunteer and you get a better selection for coaches. But the end result is the same…dad coaching his kid. 

Yes, Black Bear will look only at the bottom $$$ but that’s not a good thing. They are making money off the kids. As long as they are getting paid, they don’t care how the teams look. They aren’t going to be worried if families could afford it, they’ll be worried about how much in the black they can get. I sat in on a couple of meetings. Not once did they talk about their development plans or their plans to grow the sport. All they spoke about was the money the investors put in and how they plan on getting more money into the rink. There was seriously no talk of anything but that. It was disheartening, to be honest.

I just don’t think Black Bear is the answer. I actually think they will be to the detriment of Western PA hockey. They are going to force PAHL down to nothing, creating their own league. PAHL will become non-existent. Their own league, right now, has very few Western PA locations, which will force more travel for parents and kids who like the local play. These A and B teams are happy to play their 20 game season at the local rinks. They don’t want more than that. I think this may force some kids off the ice and out of the sport all together…

1 hour ago, rock said:

a little history on the 08 team,  the first year they formed they won pahl  the next season esmark offered an 08 team and they lost half their roster and yes they had a miserable season  close games but winless  the next year won pahl  and now this year again thriving 

My son was on the win-less team that following year. I’ll be honest and say that there were kids placed on that team just to fill it. Maybe my son was 1 of them? Idk. He started off strong but had a very hard time adjusting to the schedule, the demands and the coach. He was a 1st year coach with a lot to learn. He did not make the team the following year and my son moved back down to Vipers, where he is thriving and having a blast. AA was not for him. But that team should have never been declared AA. That was a decision made by Posey at the time. Springing forward a couple years, once the coach got a little stronger and brought in a few stronger players, that team is now thriving. Actually, all the NHAHA teams are doing well in PAHL at this point. There may not be many teams but what we have are performing well.

But going back to the original thought, the 08 team that win-less year was pushed not by board or parents but by a coordinator that wanted his coordinator fee. The team attempted to the appeal PAHL placement but was denied. So many of those kids cracked under the pressure of constantly losing. My son was 1 that cracked. It was a rough year then a rough recovery. A few years later, he’s finally back to himself on the ice.

1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Where was the impasse in negotiations? Like just about everything else, was it about money?

And isn't NHAHA and Esmark closely aligned, so Esmark continuing to work with Black Bear almost like stabbing NHAHA in the back? Probably too strong of a phrase but you know what I mean.

The negotiations were fluid, I felt. We thought we were making head way. But it all came down to control…they wanted full control to run it as a for profit. We were trying to find a middle ground where it stays non profit. We had a meeting, both sides gave ideas on how it could work. Then the day after Christmas, they shut it down. The impasse was control but we truly believed we were making head way.

I can’t speak much on Esmark because I am not all that involved on that end. But it is my understanding that the “alignment” with Black Bear is 1 sided. There was no knowledge until PIA’s posting that they were attempting to separate Esmark from Vipers/Viper Stars. Again, many surprises that day…

The whole thing with Black Bear backing Huskies and not giving ice to Vipers or Vipers Stars but giving ice to Esmark came to a shock to ALL members of the NHAHA board. We believed we were in negotiations with them for ice and had been so for over a month.. So, I don’t really have any good answers other than we are working, as a whole, towards finding a new spot. It’s too early to even speculate on how that will end up looking.

15 hours ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

So how does this work?  No annual elections?   Same duo just appoints themselves in charge and nobody can unseat them.  I’d be reaching out to the IRS in regards to compliance of being a non profit.  
 

Ryan Patrick is a very unimpressive individual in that position.  Look beyond the last name.  
 

what is it with titles?   GM of a kids hockey program.  SMH. 

There would be no elections/re-appointment because these are paid positions, not board positions. They’d only change if BlackBear fired them or moved someone else into their position. They want full control and will not leave anything up to chance.

25 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Not sure if this is how they are going to set it up, but Black Bear can still control an organization and have it registered as a non-profit at the same time. That wouldn't change anything with fundraising.

It's true that a non-profit is not "owned" by anyone or any company. They are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors could be employees of Black Bear, but that doesn't mean Black Bear owns the non-profit. My guess is that this is what Black Bear does. It's common control but not ownership.

We were told if we signed over, NHAHA would be for profit. They had no desire to keep the non profit status. I’m not entirely sure if that’s their line with the Huskies or Mon Valley but my guess is probably.

1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

What are the "negotiations" like? It sounds like... 

Black Bear: Give us your non-profit youth org- which you, as a non-profit will get nothing in return for. 

Youth hockey org: Well, that doesn't sound like a good thing to us... 

Black Bear: Okay, we won't sell you ice time at any of our arenas, so you either find another rink with ice available (good luck), or sign ownership over to us. 

Youth hockey org: (picks up pen and sighs) Okay, where do we sign? 

 

Volunteer parents on a hockey board don't stand a chance negotiating anything with a maximize-profit-at-all-costs corporate board of directors. Unless some of the parents are attorneys or MBA's. These people you're "negotiating" against know how to this, and have done many times. They're experts in it. 

I feel like you were there…lol.

They did allow us to come back with a counter proposal. I see now it was a ploy to shore up what they were working on with the Huskies….once that was secure, they cut 2/3rds of NHAHA loose.

7 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

The Black Bear takeover of hockey in WPA continues. I'm not saying any of this is either good or bad. Most likely there are some positives as well as negatives that will come from a complete Black Bear takeover.

WPA rinks owned by Black Bear:

Printscape (Southpointe)
Palmer (Delmont)
PIA (New Ken)
Ice Garden (Rostraver)
Youngstown (Phantoms)

The Black Bear playbook is pretty obvious. We can see this not just in WPA but in other regions where they've moved in.

1. Buy a rink
2. Make a few modest upgrades
3. Raise the fees
4. Take over the organizations
5. Make the organizations leave their current league and join the AHF

Steps 1-3 have happened already in all those rinks. Looks like New Ken and Rostraver have just completed step 4. Black Bear controls the rink and the amateur organization that is the primary customer.

What's next?

• Huskies leaving PAHL for AHF
  • You'll notice on all the updated PIA website pages that talk about the Huskies (and not Vipers), there is no mention of PAHL. The move to AHF is coming.
• Mon Valley Thunder leaving PAHL for AHF
• Badgers being taken over by Black Bear
• Rebellion being taken over by Black Bear

From an outsiders perspective, it appears that the Badgers and Rebellion are very well run organizations that still have control over their organizations. I think it would be a shame if they were taken over by Black Bear. The only way for them to avoid a takeover would be the preemptively announce a a move to AFH. It's going to happen one way or another. Either with existing board control, or control by Black Bear.

I do think the graphic on the new PIA page puts to rest the rumors that Esmark is moving to Southpointe. What makes more financial sense (contingent on a second sheet at Southpointe) is for Black Bear to start their own Tier 1 program at Printscape that rink to play in their existing Tier 1 league.

 

 

It’s been brought to my attention that the Badgers are owned by BlackBear…it’s on BB’s website.

5 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

It's not about me.  It's about the kids and the benefits of playing the great sport of Hockey.  If the Vipers made decisions in the best interest of Hockey and the Kids, they wouldn't be in this position.  I landlord doesn't evict good tenants.  

So much wrong w this statement…but I digress…

I’m coming to find that this is Black Bear’s MO. It’s not about being a good tenant.  It’s about taking over and monopolizing the game. Look on Black Bears social media. Many organizations have been forcefully taken over by them. And, again, they never speak of growing the sport. It’s about growing their kingdom. That’s not what’s best for youth hockey on the broad scale. 
 

Just now, Clonbur said:

Please read my previous post many months ago.  The writing was on the wall.  The Viper Board is toxic and drove many away from Pittsburgh Ice.  It only makes sense for Pittsburgh Ice to partner with a program that promotes hockey in a positive light.

Yawn. Here we go.

We know…you hate the board. Let’s move on.

I’m not sure if what BB is doing will end up promoting hockey in a positive light. I sat in a couple meetings with them, their concern isn’t hockey or growing the sport. It’s how much money will they make. They are turning non profit organizations into for profit…in youth sports. I can’t see how this will have a positive affect on hockey.

1 hour ago, bb2j3z said:

Sorry cannot comment on ongoing negotiations, but we are willing to work with Black Bear and planning out the next season and beyond.  A second sheet is not announced yet, but in the works.  We are doing well and plan to continue to participate in PAHL and support youth hockey in the community.  Some independent teams may play in AHF... currently it's just the 14u Girls team in AHGF.  

Just a word of caution: NHAHA was willing to work with them as well. There were several meetings and proposals that were discussed trying to come up with a good working solution. In the middle of those negotiations, they cut the cord on us.
 

I do hope you all are able to make it work and find a balance. Maybe it could be a model for future rinks they take over. Please just keep your eyes open as Black Bear is very fickle. 

3 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Can someone help me out here? I'm a little confused with the organization.

NHAHA is the Huskies?

Viper Stars/Vipers are not part of NHAHA?

Esmark is the old Pittsburgh Stars/Steel City Stars, who I thought merged with Eastern and/or NHAHA?

Or did Eastern (Pittsburgh Tigers) merge with the Amateur Penguins to become what is now the Ice Renegades and Vengance?

NHAHA is the organization of the Pittsburgh Vipers, Pittsburgh Viper Stars and Esmark. How Esmark became part of NHAHA and who they were prior, I am not sure.

Huskies are their own organization. Huskies and NHAHA just happened to share the same home rink at PIA. They are not affiliated.

17 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

They could potentially have 4 programs in Western Pa to start to form their own WPA league competing with PAHL.  Maybe some other organizations will like it better than PAHL and join their league.  Not all competition is a bad thing.

You are correct, competition isn’t a bad thing. But the way the competition is being created rubs the wrong way. I’m not from the business sector, so this hostile like take over is all new to me. I’m a social worker, we operate on a different mentality. Lol. To me, stomping on anything in your way to get your desired outcome isn’t creating competition, it’s leveling the market and making it bend to your will. If Black Bear continues, PAHL will be non-existent in less than 5 years. 

16 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

We're not far away from an AHF "west" division. As Black Bear starts gathering teams for this new division, travel won't be as bad. Plus, the AHF plays an unbalanced schedule that factors in travel.

But you're right, at first the travel will be ridiculous, but once the "west" division is built out (will happen fast) the travel will be much lest.

PAHL will be on life support this time next year.

What is an unbalanced schedule? I asked 1 of their reps at the rink and they didn’t know either. 

12 hours ago, forbin said:

So Vipers/Stars will no longer have a home? 

Unless NHAHA signs everything over to them and give them full control, Vipers and Viper Stars will not have ice at PIA. But Esmark will be offered ice slots.