AMR24

This is NOT Yuri. And, to my knowledge, there is no talk of splitting ice between the 2 rinks.

Yes, Vipers will have ice at Alpha/Shadyside side. Vipers will be having tryouts. We are working on dates and budgets now. The Vipers program will not be changing, just relocating. Yes, the plan is for Esmark to “expand” to AA teams, essentially absorbing the Viper Stars teams. Black Bear has said REPEATEDLY that they’d “support Esmark in any capacity” so the hope/plan is they extend whatever ice time is needed in order for this to occur. We are doing our best to make the best out of a very crappy situation.

@No Politics, maybe I’m just cynical. I’ve been involved with dek hockey for over 10 years, building up an organization. And if you think ice hockey has politics, spend a summer on a tournament dek hockey team or sit in on a board meeting for the league. It’s astonishing. Maybe I’m just worn down. I just have heard the phrase “I want my kid on a higher level team” so many times. And, like most things, the negative stuff just sticks and rings in your head, ya know. End of day, I’m not opposed to the Black Bear model. I just honestly don’t think think they are the best ones for the job. I’ve spent time in meetings listening to them. Once they get Huskies up and running, they’ll move on and leave it to the parents to run. You will still have the parent coach who plays their kid too much. And your complaint will fall into deaf ears because by that time, they’ve moved on and their energy will be focused on their next conquest.

I’m not sure how to phrase this so bare with me a minute… 1 thing we haven’t brought into the conversation is perception. What’s that saying? A person’s perception is their reality. I have been around a long time. My oldest has played at 3 different organizations and from B hockey to college. I have seen a ton of legit concerns and a ton of perceived concerns. We’ve all heard “that kid is only on that team because his parents are (fill in the blank)”. And, in some cases, it’s legit. Sometimes, it is not. But to the person that believes that statement, whether true or false, that is their reality. And their decisions are based on their own reality. Same goes with the parents who organization shop. It’s usually done on the perception that they can get on a higher level team elsewhere. And this does happen way more often than not. I can sit here and think of at least a dozen families I personally know from different organizations that my youngest has played with/against that has said “we wanted him/her on a higher team so we left”. Sometimes it works in their favor, sometimes it doesn’t. I see it in ice and dek. It is the nature of the beast. Now a days, parents want their kids to be the best at everything and have the means/options to make that happen. So when we talk about politics within a board, we can’t ignore the fact that some things viewed as political/self serving may not necessarily be that.

The Esmark rumor going to Printscape or any other rink has been around for years so I personally put no stock in it whatsoever. As for BB, when we asked about PAHL, we were told “we will handle PAHL” and when asked to elaborate we were told again “don’t worry, we will handle PAHL”. There were no definitive details given by them on anything, actually. Personally, I now believe these meetings were all smoke and mirrors to keep us on the line incase Huskies fell through. So, they didn’t give very many details other than how much their investors spent.

Well, this escalated quickly…Shame because it was 1 of the better posts on here…great discussion and communication… Just know, Black Bear is aiming to buy all non municipal rinks in this area. This conversation will continue for a long time, especially as we see it play out in the long run. I just warn anyone who is in talks with them now or in the future to use extreme caution and don’t let your guard down or you may find your teams without ice. They told us they’d rather see a rink sit empty than not have control of the teams using their rinks.

I’ve had several people reach out to me. Black Bear believes that many from NHAHA will stay and the Huskies will absorb them. There has also been rumors of Renegade kids and Aviator kids coming over. But it’s all rumor. No one really knows. Tryout season will be interesting this season for sure! We are actively looking for ice. NHAHA intends on having a new home for our teams. That’s is our goal. How that will that look? I have no clue. But we are trying.

You are correct, what’s good for 1 isn’t good for all. I do believe that. And maybe I will be proven wrong and this will be a good thing. That is all yet to be seen. I did not sit in on the earlier meetings when they 1st took over so I can’t speak to how that went. The most recent meetings were hostile on both sides at times. There were several of us that were able to minimize that on both sides. So we believed the meetings were going in a better direction. Even a couple of the Black Bear employees thought it was going well. It came down to control, neither wanted the other to have full control but for very different reasons. And, yes, some of it did sting when we were repeatedly told “you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re just a volunteer “. Speaking for myself, I take pride in what I do. Whether it’s working at my 40 hour a week job or the 10 plus hours a week I donate to the organization. To be told I’m of no value because I don’t do this full time is demoralizing. I have been on this board and helped build a successful dek organization on another. I have value and skills that are of use. So, yeah, ego definitely pops up and emotions get riled up. In the long run, I just don’t see the value in having what they are creating…cookie cutter rinks at every turn. Yes the Rebellion are growing BUT Black Bear does not own Rebellion. They are still in negotiations and have pretty much left them to their own. Rebellion did that all on volunteer run hours and effort. I cannot speak for Phantoms as I do not follow them as much. There is value in both aspects…volunteer and paid professionals…so why can there not be a middleman ground? Which was our last proposal to Black Bear and is similar to what they do with Badgers but the did not even counter offer, just kicked 2/3rds of the organization out. That is just something I do not understand.

I just really don’t think Black Bear will be all that involved in a year or two. They’ll make a good showing the 1st year then move onto the next conquest. Now, if it was a corporation taking over just 1 rink, not 34, maybe they could make a difference. But I just don’t see it here. They’re too big to care about 1 rink. And reading reviews from other organizations they’ve taken over, the outcome is never good. I am on the NHAHA board. Nothing big, but there none the less. And I didn’t even seek it out. A job needed filled that someone asked if I could do. Knowing little to nothing about the NHAHA board, I said sure thinking I’d just be doing the job. It wasn’t until a little while later I learned it was a job that came w a board position. So I didn’t start on the board with any other reason than to help. Now that I’m there, I believe I’m in it for the whole organization. My vested interest is seeing it grow, players develop, and for NHAHA to be seen as successful. But do I have a bit of selfishness in me? Sure, we all do. My selfishness is to see that my son continues to have a team/organization to finish his “career “ at. I’m not looking for him to climb the extra A ladder. I’m not looking for him to be on the best team. I’m wanting him to remain in an organization and with teams that 95% of his friends are at. I have 2 kids. My oldest wanted to climb the ladder. He did B, A, AA, AAA and is now playing ACHA D3 hockey. My youngest thought he wanted that. He made the 08 team and it was a disaster. I can give all the reasons but they aren’t the point. The point is it broke him. Therapy needing broke him. It’s taken a couple of years but he’s finally back smiling and having fun on the ice with his A level team. That’s what I work so hard for…to keep that. To keep him where he is happy and thrives. There were 2 other kids on that 08 team that had similar issues as my son. They are on his team now. They are smiling, happy and enjoying the game. That’s what I want to see continue. I’m not looking for anything but a place for these kids to be able to continue to play the sport they live with their friends they’ve had since ADM. Again, I see merit in an organization coming in. I do see it’s strong points. I just don’t think Black Bear with their 34 rink empire is the answer. A little hole in the wall rink in New Kensington PA is never going to make them millions of dollars. It’s probably 1 of the easiest ones for them to forget about.

I thought I posted on this last night but now I don’t see it. Ugh. Let me try again…lol… Every organization has the dynamic of politics. Every organization, every sport…always has. How do you correct that? I don’t know. But I don’t think Black Bear is the solution. End of day, their “paid coaches” are still parent coaches who receive a stipend for their time…their kid plays free. Honestly, I think that’s a great idea because more people will volunteer and you get a better selection for coaches. But the end result is the same…dad coaching his kid. Yes, Black Bear will look only at the bottom $$$ but that’s not a good thing. They are making money off the kids. As long as they are getting paid, they don’t care how the teams look. They aren’t going to be worried if families could afford it, they’ll be worried about how much in the black they can get. I sat in on a couple of meetings. Not once did they talk about their development plans or their plans to grow the sport. All they spoke about was the money the investors put in and how they plan on getting more money into the rink. There was seriously no talk of anything but that. It was disheartening, to be honest. I just don’t think Black Bear is the answer. I actually think they will be to the detriment of Western PA hockey. They are going to force PAHL down to nothing, creating their own league. PAHL will become non-existent. Their own league, right now, has very few Western PA locations, which will force more travel for parents and kids who like the local play. These A and B teams are happy to play their 20 game season at the local rinks. They don’t want more than that. I think this may force some kids off the ice and out of the sport all together…

My son was on the win-less team that following year. I’ll be honest and say that there were kids placed on that team just to fill it. Maybe my son was 1 of them? Idk. He started off strong but had a very hard time adjusting to the schedule, the demands and the coach. He was a 1st year coach with a lot to learn. He did not make the team the following year and my son moved back down to Vipers, where he is thriving and having a blast. AA was not for him. But that team should have never been declared AA. That was a decision made by Posey at the time. Springing forward a couple years, once the coach got a little stronger and brought in a few stronger players, that team is now thriving. Actually, all the NHAHA teams are doing well in PAHL at this point. There may not be many teams but what we have are performing well. But going back to the original thought, the 08 team that win-less year was pushed not by board or parents but by a coordinator that wanted his coordinator fee. The team attempted to the appeal PAHL placement but was denied. So many of those kids cracked under the pressure of constantly losing. My son was 1 that cracked. It was a rough year then a rough recovery. A few years later, he’s finally back to himself on the ice.

The negotiations were fluid, I felt. We thought we were making head way. But it all came down to control…they wanted full control to run it as a for profit. We were trying to find a middle ground where it stays non profit. We had a meeting, both sides gave ideas on how it could work. Then the day after Christmas, they shut it down. The impasse was control but we truly believed we were making head way. I can’t speak much on Esmark because I am not all that involved on that end. But it is my understanding that the “alignment” with Black Bear is 1 sided. There was no knowledge until PIA’s posting that they were attempting to separate Esmark from Vipers/Viper Stars. Again, many surprises that day…

The whole thing with Black Bear backing Huskies and not giving ice to Vipers or Vipers Stars but giving ice to Esmark came to a shock to ALL members of the NHAHA board. We believed we were in negotiations with them for ice and had been so for over a month.. So, I don’t really have any good answers other than we are working, as a whole, towards finding a new spot. It’s too early to even speculate on how that will end up looking.

There would be no elections/re-appointment because these are paid positions, not board positions. They’d only change if BlackBear fired them or moved someone else into their position. They want full control and will not leave anything up to chance.

We were told if we signed over, NHAHA would be for profit. They had no desire to keep the non profit status. I’m not entirely sure if that’s their line with the Huskies or Mon Valley but my guess is probably.