AMR24

4 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Does any of this really surprise us!  We all knew it was coming.  At the end of the day Black Bear is a business,  They bought rinks improved them and now are running the programs.  They were smart to get the Huskies at their weakest point,  I feel bad for NHAHA but they were vulnerable this year as their program and number of teams was way down.  In the end isn't it most important that the kids in that area have a place to play and the rink stays open?

But at what cost? I honestly believe they will take the teams out of PAHL and place them in their league which means much more travel. Single A teams don’t want to travel out to Philly every other weekend to play. In the end, 1 of 2 things will happen: those players move onto a new rink and numbers drop more or those players hang up the skates permanently. I just don’t see them having the monopoly on Western PA youth hockey as a good thing….by having the monopoly, you take away choice, you force ppl into all 1 direction, and smother out the little guys. 

If I understand correctly, they own Huskies and their USA Hockey charter. Huskies signed it over.

They proposed to take over NHAHA, wanting complete control over all of it. The board pushed back. Had the board signed, Black Bear would have owned NHAHA. I imagine the same proposal was presented to Huskies and they consented. If their negotiations where anything similar to NHAHA’s, it was probably done forcefully.

This appears to be their MO. If you scroll through Black Bears’ Facebook page and read comments, you’ll see they’ve come into rinks, take over the organizations then move onto the next. They’ve snuffed many smaller organizations to make way for their monopoly. 
 

9 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

Can someone explain this drama to the rest of us? 

That question is best directed to Black Bear…they are doing as they please…

Board was told today that they are putting their full backing to the Huskies and will more than likely not be offering ice to Vipers/Viper Stars due to them being a competitor. Esmark will of course always have ice ??‍♀️ Only they can explain that reasoning when Esmark, Viper Stars andVipers are all 1 organization…NHAHA….

2 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

It appears that the one team Huskies have outmaneuvered the Vipers as the surviving organization at PIA. Viper board members..... how did you allow this to occur?

https://pittsburghicearena.com/

 

 

There was no choice. We were TOLD.  Today. 5 minutes before they posted about the huskies. They wanted full control, we tried to work with them, had several meetings. This was their solution.

That question should be directed to Black Bear. Only they can explain what they are forcefully doing to the oldest youth hockey organization in Western PA…

They will smother youth hockey in Western PA…

18 hours ago, Saucey said:

PIA is in such a terrible location, I think it would be better to move somewhere else. Even if you fix up the rink, it's still really hard for anyone not on that side of town to get to. I think it's a huge reason why some families won't play there.

I think this statement is true for the single A teams. But for the AA/AAA teams, arena location doesn’t seem to matter to some.

PIA is definitely not in the most convenient location geographically but it doesn’t really hinder ppl coming for the higher teams.

This is literally a rumor every year…just different locations. Last year, Esmark “was in talks with Ice Castle”. The year before was Southpointe. The year before that was somewhere else…I can’t remember.

As a board member, I am told Esmark is not moving and this is just a rumor recirculating.

18 hours ago, forbin said:

I see on their site that the Vipers aren’t fielding 10U or 12U teams, but the Viper Stars are….what’s the story here? 

Honestly, it was a perfect storm: admittedly poor coaching choices (no other options really-volunteer coaches are becoming harder to find), a lot of girl players that moved to strictly girls teams, a charismatic parent that sold greener pastures elsewhere ??‍♀️ And, I’ll be honest in the VS teams hurt that age group. Had the majority end up there.

@Clonbur, I’m still waiting for you to tell me who the paid board members are. I’m not one of them so you give me “receipts”and I’ll take them to the board.  Tell me who they are and I’ll call them out. You’ve said in a past post you hoped to see someone turn it around. I’m that someone but instead of giving me helpful information, you choose to laugh and ridicule. It annoys me that you take so much joy in what you consider our demise. You laugh and say “I told you so” with NO thought of the kids there…like mine…who like it there and want to play with his friends he’s had since ADM. You be perfectly content pointing your finger in my face and laughing if it ended up my kid didn’t have a “home” to play at. Honestly, parents like you are the reason we can’t find solid volunteer coaches. No one wants the job to deal with parents who think they know better…

2 hours ago, Clonbur said:

You are not a NON-PROFIT organization.  You are Not-for-profit, big difference.  You also have paid employees and board members.  It sounds like they sit back and let you do all the work.  I am sure the Aviators will appreciate your hard work.

Please enlighten me as to who the paid board members are, how much their salary is and how often are they paid? Seriously. I’d love to know.

10 hours ago, Clonbur said:

Everything I stated became true and is true.  My skin in the game is the friends and families that are still being misled by this unethical organization.  They begged, pleaded and bribed many players to stay/come back.  Then they chase the coach out.  (I am not for or against Posey, he never coached my kid).  They are money hungry and no good for hockey.  Call me what you want behind your keyboard, you sound like a tough guy.  I will continue to refrain from name calling as I always have.  I will always side with ethics and what's good for the sport.  

You exhaust me. And nothing I say changes your opinion. You just skirt around with your accusations. And I’m done trying to converse with you. But I would like to clarify 2 points:

1. Posey was not chased out. He priced himself out. When the board pushed back on a line item he became upset. They were against raising costs any more than necessary due to rising ice costs. Both sides met several times with out an agreement. He choose to leave. End of story. 
 

2. I think you have forgotten what NON PROFIT means. You continue to say “money hungry”. We do not see a dime. What comes in goes out by the end of the season. There is no profit. We are VOLUNTEERS. I did not get paid for any of the hours I put in for trying to help fix Posey’s mess last week. I pushed aside work for my paid job to help. I continued to pitch in even when I’m already overwhelmed with my oldest graduating and throwing his party and getting him prepared to leave for college. We are not all self-serving, money hungry parents. We really do have the kid’s best interest in the for front. Posey leaving does not affect my child in any form or fashion. He’s on the Viper’s end and his team is secure. I could have washed my hands and said, “not my monkey, not my circus” but my concern is making sure that the kids were affected by this in the least possible way. There are several of us working hard on this even though our kids have no ties to Posey.

You speak of ethics and what’s good for the sport but scoff at it when it’s demonstrated. There’s nothing anyone can do to help you see past your haze of anger. 

8 hours ago, Clonbur said:

I'm not a coach.  Never claimed to be.  Posey's resume (like him or not) will be hard to beat.  He was a major reason why most of the kids stayed with the Stars.  When you sell a product that includes a qualified coach and then you don't provide one...  who's fault is that?  Who suffers?  NHAHA needs to point their finger at themselves (which they never do).  I'm not the reason the program failed.  I noticed the poor leadership 4 years ago.  

Hi!

Board member here?

You had a bad experience a few years ago that I am sorry to hear about. BUT a majority of the current board was not involved in that so the continuous barrage of “bad people on the board” is annoying and offensive. Many of us are new and working extremely hard. I swear, you just sit and stare at the website waiting for something scandalous to pop up.

Yes, Posey resigned on his own accord. His decision. And his “resume” is really not any more impressive than the next when you consider he did not play past high school hockey. The coaches that are lined up have all played a high level of hockey past high school: i.e AAA, Juniors, college. Is he a good skills coach? Absolutely. But so are 100’s of others. That’s not an insult it’s just a fact.

Yes, we had attrition. We were expecting a high amount. We were surprised how high that amount ended up being. There was definitely a lot of self reflection and plans put in place moving forward.

Hockey is fickle. I’ve been around it long enough to see many organizations have mass exodus’s and push forward. Parents are always looking for the next big thing or greener grass. Some organizations profit from it, some don’t. It ebbs and flows. The “it” organization isn’t the “it” organization for more than a few years in a row.

I honestly wish you would just move on from NHAHA and find a new obsession. Some of us there are truly there to make a difference and to grow the organization. This week alone, I’ve put more hours in on the phone and sending emails than I did for my own job. Please just accept that your previous experience sucked but it had literally nothing to do with those of us there who are putting in the work to make other’s experience a positive 1.

We’re getting there. We do have a couple of spots to fill at the Vipers level. And we have some non-parent coaches lined up for 10U and 12U. Viper Stars and Esmark have their finished tryout results posted.

We are holding an Open House on Sunday.Things are moving in the right direction. 

2 hours ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Connor Chi, NA, forward

COLBY BILSKI, TJ, forward

Trey Gallo, NA, defense

Ed Nowicki, Baldwin, goal

William Tomko, Peters, forward

Chase Williams, FR, forward

 

Looks like no one from the B division made it, though honestly I'm not sure if any of them are better than these 6.

I always feel players in the B division often get over looked because they are in a co-op. There are some really good players scattered about the B division.

2 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

You must not be a top 4 board member.  Sad you had to hear about it on a forum.  Ask your Safe Sports member.  Typical as to how other board members are informed.  Decisions are only made from the top.  Good Luck.

Again, you are still misinformed. But it honestly is not going to matter what I say. And the SafeSport coordinator is a dear friend of mine, so, yes, I shall ask her. I shall ask the VP too since I’m extremely close to them as well.
You have a large ax to grind and you are going to manipulate any piece of information to fit your agenda. If anyone on here has questions regarding these allegations, please feel free to private message me. I am no longer going to feed his fodder for him to manipulate it.

2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

My original understanding was that the Viper Stars are NHAHA's AA teams (Independent and/or PAHL) and Vipers are NHAHA's PAHL A/B teams. However, several Viper Stars teams have played at the A level over the past few seasons. So what's the purpose of having separate "Viper Stars" and "Vipers" designations while potentially playing at the same level? @AMR24 can you provide some insight?

Viper Stars are set up to be AA teams. However, they don’t always place AA in PAHL…especially if it’s a newer, younger group. They may not play AA in PAHL but when they go to tournaments, they will play in the AA bracket if warranted. What sets them apart from Vipers are several things: non parent/paid HC, more ice time, more scheduled games, access to gym/work out facility  and tournaments are included in the season fees. Both my boys played VS; 1 loved it and 1 tolerated it. Lol. If you want your child to be on the ice more and go to out of state tournaments, Viper Stars provide that. Vipers is for the A/B kiddos and families who want to just play PAHL and maybe 1 or 2 tournaments a season. 

3 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I beg to differ. It only takes one charismatic dad to convince entire teams that what the organization did was wrong and another organization in need of check books. That's how the Icemen fill their rosters every year. You know, because they don't have a program that develops from the mites on.

????????
 

I have seen this EXACT thing happen at ice and dek. 1 or 2 upset parents can move mountains when they want. And it ebbs and flows in EVERY organization within different times. It’s the nature of the beast.

7 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

You must be drinking the Viper cool aide.  People are not leaving because of not making teams or the coaches or the ice time (maybe a small percent but that's everywhere).  They are leaving from the continued (4 years and counting) poor decisions from the board.  The board should review who started in their program and who has moved on.  This kind of mass movement does not happen at other locations.  The Board will use lines like "grass is not greener" and "maybe you should volunteer more"....  these lines are used on previous head coaches.  They also have Board Members who are leaving each year.  Count the number of coaches that have left.  You can have good intentions and be on 100 boards but data doesn't lie.  They need new leadership and soon.  Black Bear is going to pull that rug from underneath them.  I know it's hard to swallow for those who still think they are "doing their best".  

But the Viper Kool-Aide is the best kind ? 

In all seriousness, though, no one is disputing the fact that there needs to be some changes within the organization. Every organization has times when changes need to be made. Even those on “the much greener side”. And, believe it or not, we do have a good pulse on what’s going on within the organization and why people are leaving. And it is being addressed. Just because there’s not a huge town hall announcing it doesn’t mean it’s not being talked about. And, yes, if you are unhappy, a common response is “then volunteer” because the more volunteers you have with voices, the more it will be heard. Is that no different than telling someone to go vote if they don’t like how the government is run?

You have such a dislike for the organization that you wish it to fail so no matter what I type, it’s not going to make a difference to you. And your dislike is so deep that you wish for Black Bear to pull the rug out. That’s your choice. But there are good, honest, hard-working people on the board. You just don’t want to see it because of the 3 or 4 you dislike. Again, you’ve left. You’ve moved on. I’m still unsure as to why this board bothers you still many years later?

12 minutes ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

The true tell is that this team finished below every A+ Black team with the exception of 1 in the MyHockeyRankings.  And that was with playing low level teams all year during the season with their "independent" schedule.

That is a good point.  I’m not arguing whether they were AA or not. My point was that there was development throughout the year. They moved up MyHockey rankings as the season went on. It may not have been much or put them in the top 20 but it was consistent. 

13 hours ago, Clonbur said:

I've never hid.  I've said my piece to the board members when we went there.  The Vipers even have board members leaving for other organizations this year.  You would think that would wake up some of them.  It is run by a few that now collect a stipend that they refuse to relinquish.  They aren't doing it for the kids.  I look forward to another organization moving into PICE. 

Again with the “inside scoop”. You know nothing about stipends and refusing to give it up. We have a board member who is a paid coach. He gave up his whole coaching stipend this past season to offset the ice cost increase that was thrown onto us from Black Bear after tryouts and financial papers from parents were signed. That’s who is on the board now. People who are willing to forgo something that they earn just so parents wouldn’t have to pay more after committing to a certain amount. Again, I’m sorry your experience was negative but things are changing. Maybe it’s time to let it go and move on. You said you are on the greener side, why not just enjoy it and let go of the past.

2 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

06 Viper Stars expected to be placed in PAHL AA U16 for this past season. They were designated A Major Black based on the placement games. They declined, went independent AA and ended up 13-28 for the season. 
 

Read into this what you will. 

That was a decision made by the parents and coaches. Their record may not look great but practically every game was competitive. The team seemed to struggle with “finishing”. Something they couldn’t overcome. Plus they were plagued with injuries all season. You can look at records all you want but to really see growth from beginning of the year to the end, you gotta look at the nitty gritty stats. That’s the true tell.

13 hours ago, Clonbur said:

If you are on the Board... you should resign.  You are not doing anything to help the organization.  You have years of bad decisions.  We left a few years ago.  I went to a board meeting to address issues and it was a joke.  I heard the same "the grass isn't greener comment" which is you mantra.  It is greener.  Much much greener.  The board does not do what's best for development.  I've witnessed 80 kids on one sheet of ice, board member kids get put on better teams above their skill level, teams being forced to play down because they don't want to go "Stars" and pay more money for the same amount of Ice and instruction, 80 kids in an ADM program 4 years ago and I can only name 8 that are still skating for the Vipers.  You are now on your 4th year of mass exodus.  RESIGN.  You are doing no favors to anyone.  

Sir, you do not know me please leave your shouty cap lock on off. Or maybe you do know me but I am newer to the board. There has been changes and more are to come. You claim that you left years ago but you seem to have all the “inside scoop”. 
 

I know you believe that I’m not doing anyone any favors by staying on the board but I disagree. I joined in 2020. Much didn’t get accomplished in 2020 and 2021 for obvious reasons but things are moving in a positive direction now. Changes are being discussed and implemented. We have some really good individuals involved now that have some great ideas and the desire to get them going.

I’ve been around a long time in ice hockey and dek hockey. This is the 2nd board I’ve been involved in. What I will say is that every organization goes through an ebb and flow over the years; high numbers and low numbers. Happy participants and unhappy participants.

On another comment, you mentioned the vast difference between team options. I agree with you. AA or A minor shouldn’t be the only options. There needs to be more talent pulled or retained into the organization. That’s hard to do when everyone jumps ship the moment things don’t go in the manner as which they believe it should. Nobody wants to ride out the growing pains or are trophy chasing. Our rink is in New Ken and not very accessible so our numbers are just small to begin with.

Personally, you seem to have an issue with specific boards members. I’m sorry your experience with the Vipers was not great but I don’t see how going onto a forum, starting this thread is going to make that experience any better a few years out. Again, I’m willing to have an adult conversation with you in regards to what made your experience so negative. But I will need more specifics than over generalizations. Please feel free to message me directly.

10 minutes ago, JAR48 said:

I’m not sure where you are getting your information from but players come and go from every organization.  We haven’t even started tryouts yet. People think the grass is greener elsewhere. No one is perfect and we are all volunteers doing our best. 

Add to the fact that very few ppl volunteer their time on the board or to coach. It’s so easy to sit in the cheap seats to critique. And let’s not forget parents/coaches/board members who leave in a huff because their child did not make the team THE PARENT thought they should make. Really leaves the rest of the volunteers in a bind, don’t take think. 
And, yes, I am on the board. I play a small role but it still takes up a mass amount of my time. And I can honestly tell you that the board works towards doing what’s best for the children who play there. Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we strive to be better? Of course. Is there room for improvement? Always. @Clonbur, if you’d like to sit down and have a talk about your apparent negative experience with the Vipers/board, I’m always willing to have an adult conversation.

Lol. There hasn’t even been tryouts yet…
 

Hi! So I am following this closely. My son is also a senior BUT could still play 1 more year of AAA next year. We are sort of in a weird area where he’s not sure if he should do another year and aim towards juniors (which is where he wants to play but feels like his time is running out) or just jump into college and play club for 4 years; like UPJ or Allegheny. And we have no clue on how to get him on there list for playing. I never thought about filling out new player forms…I’m just feeling overwhelmed and I know he is. Any guidance on this will help!

I have thought about this a lot. Every adult in that building failed this girl. The chants are loud and clear. Enough adults knew what was being said. And, as for the adults on the ice, they heard it. And if they did not, they sure heard the players on the ice discussing it. Yes, the parents in the stands had a responsibility to stop it. The security guard had a responsibility as well. There were many avenues that could have been taken to stop it. But why are we over looking the responsibility of the coaches and refs? They have a responsibility also. How many games have we all been to where a ref stops a game to kick out a parent then keeps the game stopped until the parent exits? I’ve seen it done more times than I care to admit. How many times have we seen them issue a bench minor for parent’s behaviors in the stands?  They had options and the chose to not to act. The Mars coach could have refused to go out for the 3rd period. His goalie was visibly upset. This was well beyond any heckling. While she’s on that ice, she is his responsibility. And, I’m sorry, but her well being is far greater than any point in standings or fine he may have received for choosing not to continue to play. The Armstrong coach could have done the same thing. Instead, every adult sat back and let it occur. Then when the story breaks, fingers start pointing and blame is passed around. Take ownership and responsibility, be an adult and a roll model. It’s really not difficult to do. I would also go out on a limb and say if this was directed at a male goalie with a different version of the chant, the response would have been different.