hockeydeke

On 2/3/2020 at 12:02 PM, Hockey1 said:

Ok, wait until next year when the kids that currently  play for the 16U PPE team and DON'T go to NC, are grandfathered in on this Prep Team...  Plenty of prep teams do this by the way, YALE Jr. Bulldogs is one of them that kids go to school somewhere else and play for YALE....

I think the challenge will be for players that are allowed to play prep but not go to NC...aren’t they going to have to get out of their school early to get to the practices early afternoon?  Will those schools allow that?

12 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Still on this ? As king mentioned above. I was showing how NC varsity was built. Off the top of my head I figured it was half the NC team Due to the players I know, it turned out to be 7 out of 18 skaters. That’s pretty darn close, i didn’t realize esmark 18u #2 kid left esmark half way into the season (that would be 8 ) NC varsity does have a kazastan kid, he came here to try and make the pens, he didn’t now he’s on that awful 16u icemen team but still hoping for the gold helmet next year. The Canadian kid is on a esmark midget team. When I ask a few coaches where the kid is, I was told he decided to drop out of the NC varsity tryout because the level of play was “bad”. had he stayed that would make 9 players or 50% of the 18 skaters roster.

 

face the FACT, NC varsity would not exist if it wasn’t for excel / PPE. 

I asked you to send me the names of these other 3 that were in Excel on the team but are no longer.  You didn’t.  Because they don’t exist.

the three years of JV Program NEVER had more than a few kids in Excel.  The current number is 4 and they aren’t the top four players on the team.  
 

the NC program was re-establish BEFORE Excel came into existence.

so if someone wants to argue that despite all that the NC Varsity team would not exist without Excel the are certainly entitled to do so.

but even without the current 4 there would very likely still be a Varsity team...albeit not 11-1.

but each can judge those numbers themselves.

my issue was that a bunch of stats were thrown out to support your conclusion and they were not factual.

8 minutes ago, The King said:

Oh I see your still going to die on that hill. Honestly if you can’t see that what he was saying is that NC was building off of former Excel players, there’s no hope.

I don’t mind debating the NC program...but when someone needs to manufacture “facts” to do so...it would suggest their argument is rather weak to begin with.

And the ACTUAL facts do not support his conclusion...so he should have informed himself to begin with.

18 minutes ago, g8586 said:

you are the one filling up page after page on this site. please ... count how many posts u have made on this thread alone. it’s comical. and only you would think someone is pretending to be an insider. you seem to be a jealous wannabe. you think we and everything pittsburgh hockey is so stupid yet you are on here going on and on about the same things. none of my questions dealt with a second 18 team. i’m very curious about the new prep team and trying to gain insight. we all are yet you just rant and rave. we know about the money, usa hockey and the tiers. you need to find a new hobby - especially if you have no kid playing 16u hockey at ppe. and you don’t.  

That’s not my quote you are showing...it was a statement I was responding to...so I assume all that was not directed at me ?

26 minutes ago, The King said:

There wasn’t any misinformation that I can see. Just an inability for many to understand what the root of the issues are

Well...let’s review:

Over half the NC Varsity team is in Excel Academy?   FALSE (it’s 4)

Two play on Esmark?  FALSE (only one)

One of the “two” Esmark players is in Excel?  FALSE (the only Esmark player is not in EXCEL).

Lets also deal with the “foreign” statements about Kazakhstan and Canada.  FALSE 

There is one foreign student from Kazakhstan.  There is no player from Canada.  There was one a few years ago in JV.

So...the poster came out of the gate with those assertions to argue a point.  And those assertions were not factual.

5 minutes ago, g8586 said:

they both just keep bringing up non topics. maybe they are the same person! king keeps talking about the governing bodies making anything below tier I not relevant. that’s not an issue here. And Danner has said ten times that none of us “get it”.  But neither offer anything substantive.

My question is why 18u “prep” will or could yield a different result than this year’s 18u model. i get that more money will go to all involved because of NC being mandatory but how else is the new team more attractive so that the good players will now want PE at 18u. I think PE offers great training, etc.  I’m just trying to see if anyone has information about what makes the new prep team different. thanks!

Good questions.  Can you have a true “prep” team if it is essentially “Excel Academy”...where the “Academy” isn’t really an academic one?  Assuming that is the brand...if it is branded as PPE then frankly they can play prep schools now...so indeed what is the difference?

and if the Excel is mandatory...(do we even know that for sure?) is that going to attract players or turn them away?

will they let the “prep” players play high school at the and time?

lots of questions to answer.

1 hour ago, The King said:

You know first hand? Then why come on a message board and ask questions with answers that have already been given? Trolling maybe? Or just wishing real hard to be an insider? Any answer as to what the 2nd 18U team will be is strictly speculation. Call the teams anything you want. Ultimately, the leagues they compete in and schedules they play, along with how the talent is placed will determine what the composition of the team are and what these teams become will happen organically. What I don’t get is, why all of you filled 7 pages on this thread asking repetitive questions when @Danner27and myself answered all of them in a couple posts? All you have to do is step away from your bias and you’ll understand what the motivations are and how you all are being lead by the nose. Sorry to be so blunt but you guys need to worry more about how little control you have over your kids hockey decisions and how irrelevant the governing bodies have made any level below Tier 1. Get off the message board and actually do something

Some of Danner’s early posts contained quite a bit of uninformed misinformation...so it took awhile to sort that out ?

35 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

And, of course, there's also the inevitable question of why the whole thing is such a big deal to so many who aren't directly affected. If the kids' families have the money to pay-to-play, and it matter that much to them, so be it. It's on the kids and their parents to do the research and be properly informed.

This same debate or complaint plays out across multiple levels of hockey across the country.  Just look at Tier 3 Junior hockey...its a mess...but people still “pay and play”

In fact almost any youth/amateur sport is subjected to this...Hockey is just more expensive than most because of what is required to play it.

Regardless, if someone builds a product other people are willing to buy...so what.

More power to them.

9 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Understood, but what happens when there are inevitable scheduling conflicts since Western PA doesn't have split season teams? I guarantee that the Esmark players will be at every Esmark practice/game, leaving their high school teams without their best players. This is why the PIHL will always pale in comparison to AAA and AA hockey.

Those conflicts have always existed even before Pens Elite banned players from playing for their High Schools at the same time.

All I am saying is there are plenty of kids playing schedule intensive AAA AND still playing for their high schools...even some high level AAA players.  When you add in the proximity of the rink to the school AND the fact that both will be at the same rink...it’s not hard to imagine more than a couple of U18Prep playing for NC.

We will see I guess.  Who knows whether PPE will even allow it...so it may be a moot question anyways.

2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

I just don't understand why you think players on a Prep team would also want to play at a lower level for the same school's Varsity team haha. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Simple...because 5 top level players from Esmark play for THEIR high schools....and none of those schools are even AAA.

And why do you think Pens Elite stopped allowing it?
Because too many wanted to do it.

So the evidence suggests that even though PIHL Varsity is not the same level as Youth Tier I AAA...those players still seem to want to play for their high school....and I don’t think that PPE U18 Prep team is going to be much different than the caliber of Esmark and Pens Elite.

6 hours ago, Hockey1 said:

What does "CW" have to do with anything?  The school did the right thing and your saying that as it's something bad!  If they would have waited and left it on there longer, you would of complained that they didn't take it off quick enough.  It's sad and disgusting what happened.  Having a hard time seeing what that has to do with anything hockey, no matter where you play or what school you go to!!!

This individual seems to have some issue with (in no particular order):

1) North Catholic High School
2) North Catholic’s Hockey team
3) the Pittsburgh Pens Elite 
4) Excel Academy

go figure...

1 hour ago, RegDunlop7 said:

That's because the other "AAA" teams aren't really AAA (besides Esmark).

 

I don't think any of the players on the 18U Prep team will waste their time playing for NC's Varsity team. That would essentially be like NHL players willingly playing full NHL and AHL schedules at the same time.

So if we look then at only the “real” AAA teams, as you say...one allows players to play HS and the other doesn’t.  So by that example it is half ;-).

Now...Esmark U18 has FIVE players who play HS...none of them in PIHL AAA.   So assuming Esmark is “real” AAA and would likely be competitive with U18 Prep...it’s hard to say that, if allowed, they wouldn’t play because of the lower level of hockey....those 5 Esmark don’t seem to have an issue playing in PIHL A and AA.

And when you take in the proximity of the rink to the school and that it is the same rink for both Prep and NC Varsity....it is not hard to imagine that some of the Prep players would want to play for their HS if allowed.

There is a reason PPE stopped allowing it...too many wanted to do it.

If PPE removes the restriction it is not hard to imagine that more than 1 or 2 will want to and that is a majority of a line.

1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

I can tell you 3 kids I know who went to excel and quit but still goto cwnc and play on your varsity team. So the 4 current and 3 former we are up to 7 now. Your top 6 in points are made up from 5 of these kids. Yes there are many kids that goto excel and don’t play varsity at cwnc. cwnc doesn’t have a varsity hockey team if not for excel / ppe. 
 

“it will be interesting to see if PPE allows the U18 prep plays to play hs” this statement has made me not even want to waste my time debating with you, you really can’t be this stupid ? 

So you have gone from “over half on the Varsity team are Excel” and are now down to “7”, three of which you now say are not in Excel any more.

you had “2 Esmark players one of which was on Excel” and then when the actual data was provided had to acknowledge it was only one...(who btw is not on Excel).

so now you are reverting to “former” Excel players.

tell you what ... PM the names.

...problem is they don’t exist.

As for the question about u18 prep players...not sure what you think is particularly “stupid” about the question...or was the personal attack all you were interested in?   Everyone knows that PPE began forbidding their players to play HS hockey unlike the other AAA teams that do.  The U18 Prep team appears to be an attempt to keep players in the PPE program.  Another way to do that is to allow PIHL play.  So it is certainly reasonable to ask if they might change their rule for that team.

37 minutes ago, The King said:

The point being made is that players joined Excel at its inception and following years in hopes of locking down a PPE spot. They were cut by PPE, left Excel HOWEVER, remained at North Catholic. This is why NC would even entertain a scenario like this. Possible added enrollment. So Excel brought them to the school, NC varsity hockey gave them a home when the PPE hopes were dashed. NC will always be saddled with most of the liability here. They embraced a program where they accepted the enrollments of students based on an athletic program. HOWEVER, this program is outside of the school’s curriculum and cannot be seen as recruitment or bias. Now, let’s say 10 players entering their Freshman year joined Excel for whatever reason. 10 players attend school for 8 months and train half the day. 7 of these players are cut by PPE in April. Let’s then say 3 leave NC before their Sophmore year. 4 stay and become NC hockey players. Now do this every year and you have quite the PIHL program going. 
 

I’ll ask again, how many players in NC’s team attended Excel in the past? You knew pretty quickly about the 4 that do so I’m sure you can figure out who the others are.

The numbers for this year were easy to find out.  Someone would have to check but the three years of JV had no more that 1 or 2 players maybe 3 at most on the JV team from Excel.  Which makes sense since I am not sure a borderline PPE player would be doing JV.

If you are referring to current NC players...I don’t think there are any that are former Excel program players beyond the ones that are in the program this year and were last year.  But even it is one or two it wouldn’t really matter.

People seem to be under the impression that Excel and the Varsity team are so intertwined or have been.  There is nothing to suggest that it is...beyond the small number of players that have done both.

If this is such a concern or question there are people out there in the program one could ask directly.

But this particular discussion was started with the assertion that “over half” of the Varsity team was Excel...so therefore the Varsity Team would not exist without Excel.

That is demonstrably false.

It will be interesting to see if PPE allows the U18 Prep players to play high school...which they don’t for all the other teams.

31 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

You just don’t get it, kids are there because of excel and pens. 

The facts don’t support that conclusion given the small number of HS players that have been in Excel since the HS program was brought back.  It seems the only way that argument can get made is by making up numbers that don’t bear any relationship to reality. 

Just now, Danner27 said:

Smh. It’s more than 4, I admitted it’s also one esmark 18u kid not 2, it was two until the kid left esmark. Yes CWNC would not have a varsity team of it wasn’t for excel, that’s a fact. 

Well anyone who is interested in the facts could see that there are only 4 players of the 20 team roster that are Excel by simply asking someone in the program...when actual names could be used.

would the program fold without those 4??  Lol...no.

would they still be 11-1?  Probably not...but then that is a separate discussion about AAA/AA players on any high school team.

TJ being the poster child for that question in “A”.

33 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Go use EP to look at your teams. You are correct about one thing, the second esmark 18u kid quit esmark. Your top 6 scorers are all on that team because they tried to make the pens. I personally know some of these families. 
 

I’ll always call it “CW North Catholic”. Funny how fast that CW came off the sign and the story went away in two days. 
 

your kid didn’t make PPE or ESMARK. Go sit in the corner and make up more excuses how “pure” the CWNC varsity team is. 

So you were faced with the demonstration that your “facts” were wrong and your rebuttal is a personal attack?   LOL....
 

If you want to debate what the impact of the Excel Program is on NC, then let’s do so with the actual facts about who plays on what.  You argued that NC hockey wouldn’t exist without the EXCEL program because “over half” of the NC varsity players are in the Excel program.

That is incorrect...the number is four....not 11+ it would take to be “over half”.

so....is it reasonable then to suggest that NC Varsity hockey would not exist because 4 players are on Excel?

Probably not.

You are obviously not a fan of North Catholic for whatever reason...so not sure why any of this matters to you anyways.

15 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Either you can’t read. Or you’re just not ah forget it. It’s obvious your kid goes to NC. If I could name the names I would. 

Well that might mean that I have access to some actual facts.  But don’t take my word for it.  You said there were TWO 18U Esmark players on NC.  I said there was one.  Anyone can go look at the roster of BOTH teams and see that there is only ONE as I said.

Facts are stubborn things.

As for the 4 Excel kids...that can easily be confirmed by anyone by asking someone within the program.  It’s not hard.

15 minutes ago, The King said:

How many of the players not CURRENTLY in Excel were FORMERLY in Excel?

None that I am aware of.  There have never been more than 1 or 2 in Excel I believe when it was JV....except for this year (as Varsity)....were it is 4.

54 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

I just looked at their roster, we can’t name kids here but do a little research. You’ll find kids from Canada, kazastan, Ohio and some other states. I personally know a kid from NA that goes to nc/excel to hopefully make PPE someday, he is On the NC varsity team. With out excel NC would not have a varsity team. Their are also two 18u esmark kids that do excel / NC on the NC varsity team. 

I did a little research.  Here is what I found.

rostered 21

active roster 20 (one player has not played in a single game)

number of active rostered players in Excel is 4.

that is 20%...a far cry from the “over half” stated.

There is only one Esmark player on the team and that player is not in Excel.

So...might want to check your own research.  In mine I discovered it was 4 instead of the 3.

Regardless, there is no basis for the argument that NC would not exist if it were not for Excel...certainly on the false notion that “over half” are Excel.

1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

Hate to bust some bubbles, half of the NC varsity team are excel kids. I personally know three of them. NC doesn’t have enough kids that are just NC student’s to field a varsity team. 

Then you know the ONLY 3 there actually are. That is out of a roster of 19 or 20 I believe.  Hardly “half”.

16 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

NC has 575 total students; let's assume half are boys and round to 300 to be conservative. You're saying a school with 300 boys has 18-20 18U AAA/Prep-level hockey players without the help of Excel and/or Pens Elite recruiting them? Seems like a long shot. Also, if that were the case, NC wouldn't be playing PIHL A hockey.

It’s not about having 18-20 AAA players....no team has that.  And given that PPE does not allow its players to play PIHL...the PIHL high school program is doing just fine.  And NC’s slotting in A is simply a function of PIHL’s system...if NC had 20 AAA players it would STILL be “A”.  And it is not hard to argue that they are playing at a AA level given their record and could probably be competitive with a few AAA teams.   There is so little overlap right now between Excel the NC PIHL team and both are doing fine.   It will be interesting to see if the PPE 18U prep allows its players to play in PIHL at the same time like Esmark does.

On 1/22/2020 at 3:51 PM, PuckHead7 said:

Lets set the record straight!  I never said that they were the same entity or that they are run by the same people. My point is, NC and the Prep team will be fighting for the same players. If the prep team requires the players to attend Excel, they will obviously need to attend North Catholic.  That still means that the varsity North Catholic team goes down the tubes.

A lot of this conversation was hearsay until today. Reading through the information cleared many things up.

By that logic, Excel should have sent the school team down the tubes from the get go...it didn’t.  It’s growing.

1 hour ago, SuperStar said:

It does make sense as they have people on the roster who are Excel. They rotate through freshmen who started when they were MS players in order to allow Excel and older kids to play. There is no loyalty to the kids who built the program from the ground up which was the intention of the people who had originally restarted the program. They are planning on fielding a varsity only next year for numerous reasons including because the delusional president of the association is in it for personal reasons instead of the good of the program.

There is only one player on the roster who is Excel.  A new goalie.  

57 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Then you must know more about it than I do.  I was unaware of any kids that were recruited outside of the western PA area that were brought in to take part in Excel and also play for the school.  

I was under the impression the current crop of Excel players on the team were local kids.

There is only one Excel player on the team.  A new goalie.