twoboys

People ignore the fact that this many parents are unhappy with PAHL.  

I know people want a legit AA division but we have too many teams trying to be AA.  It might be better to have a limit of 4 AA teams and have one tryout and then take the top 60 kids and split it up evenly.

5 hours ago, Saucey said:

With PIA having new ownership, who knows what will happen in the future. Black Bear may introduce their own programming and push some organizations out.

Pittsburgh has too many places for the disgruntled with stars in their eyes (pun intended) to go. These BY teams don't work in the long run in our small market. That nice team of 07s that you think will stay together forever, won't. Butler Valley may have thought that group didn't have the talent to play at AA or as a BY in Butler Valley's opinion and refused to hear otherwise. It falls apart eventually, but in the immediate, it hurts an organization, who might have thought this would not be good for the development of the kids.

Sorry, but parents shouldn't determine the makeup of a team, where the team should be placed and whether there is BY. 

"But people should be able to play where ever they want..." sorry, no. The Aviators are a perfect example of a disgruntled dad keeping things alive. I have to caveat that with it's been a few years since my boys played an Aviators team, but I never liked having an Aviators team in my division. They don't have a home sheet so it is problematic to schedule with them. Games don't go off smoothly or get cancelled, again due to their ice issues. And the player/parent behavior was frequently atrocious... because that kind of team attracts the disgruntled. They were fond of sandbagging tournaments, adding AAA players when playing in a division of A Major teams. 

Pittsburgh could use less of these places to go. Parents have too much power here and I think it hurts overall development and the hockey community as a result.

I mean, most of you can't even skate, but somehow you are an expert in how to best develop your kid.

The Aviators do have a home rink.  This is the second year they have played out of Alpha.  I actually think they are growing.  Did they go from 2 to 4 teams? 

The Huskies 07 team is stable.  The kids and the parents like it.  Each year a few leave and new kids come on board.  Again, everyone is pretty happy from what I have heard.  I actually think their fees are low.  They just don't have the overhead that other organizations have.  

50 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

Usually Pittsburgh hockey digest at least does an article or two?

agree.

28 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

Automatically AA?

Even if the whole AA team from last year moved up to bantam and the #2 team went 3-13 in A Major 3? 
  If that’s the case, why even waste games on placements? This actually adds to the reasons why some teams are moving on from PAHL at earlier ages.
For the record, I don’t like to see it because a solid, forward thinking (I emphasize “forward thinking”) local league is good for the game and the kids who play it. 
As far as scheduling goes, it’s not easy, but it’s not that hard to narrow down what would constitute a good matchup. I’ve done it and have scheduled games as early as May right after tryouts. (I do not miss it though! Lol) I look at your ranking and opponents  last season, you look at mine. Sometimes you have to look back a year or two. Sometimes you have to make a phone call.

   I will tell you this….HOME game or not, there is nothing worse than a team rep selling his/her team at a higher talent level than they are and wasting both team’s weekend with uncompetitive lopsided results. This happens way too often and from all I hear it’s getting worse.
 Sadly, some parents thoroughly enjoy winning three or four games over a weekend by 10 goals each. 

 

Larger organizations usually have a AA team every year.  And they make up probably 75 percent of the AA teams.  Every so often you have smaller organization with a AA team.  Huskies at 07 and Aviators have a strong 10 team.  

 I don't think you realize how hard it is to get AAA, or even high level AA (talking top 10) teams, to come to Pittsburgh.  Even the Pens have less than 10 home games is my guess.  EVen the Vengeance at the younger birth years (08 and 09) which are strong teams play in Cleveland cause teams don't want to come all the way to Pittsburgh.  Home games are a treat for AAA teams even if they are terrible.  Sure you complain, but you also take it cause you saved a good amount of money.

PPE overall is on a different level but at some ages that is not the case.  U18 Esmark is usually close enough to the PPE that they should play each other.  Same goes for the Vengeance at some of the younger birth years (2008 and 2009).

I disagree with the AA issue you raise.  PAHL usually places teams in divisions based on previous years.  So, if you were AA one year you will likely be AA the next.  Even if you are lousy it is very hard to move down.  Better chance of moving up than down.   Everyone knows that the AA advertisement during tryouts is just a goal not a guarantee.  If you don't you haven't done your homework and you deserve what you get.   

And you have to schedule games early.  Everyone does it so it involves a certain amount of guess work.  If you play an away game, for the most part home team doesn't care if you are good or bad cause they have a HOME game.    

I think most of people complaining miss the point of playing AAA hockey.  Kids play AAA hockey cause they want to play Junior hockey.  Without junior hockey, you have a hard time making some ACHA club teams.  

Most of non traditional AAA teams or AA/AAA exist due to a heavily involved Dad who wants to be involved or have control.  

The 06 Vengeance went 3-0 in Buffalo.  06 Preds went 1-2.  07 Shaha beat 07 Vengeance twice.

On 7/28/2021 at 10:06 AM, RJUSHL said:

Two sheets of ice is HUGE. I think the second sheet at Southpointe is going to start slowly shifting some south hills kids that way. I think some school districts are already planning the move to Southpointe (besides just Peters, Canon Mac, and Trinity). I also think the southern beltway is going to start brining some Robinson and west hills kids to Southpointe. Will be such an easy drive and I think driving is always an aspect that is a biggeByr deal than people like to admit.

I think for the most part parents stay with their local rink for Mites and Squirts.  By the time kids get to Peewee, parents are willing to drive their kids to a different rink.  By the time you kids is a peewee, you know if a coach is any good, the team is ok, or whether or not you are getting the short end of the stick at tryouts.

We live in the North Hills and we know countless people who go to the South Hills and vice versa.    

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

My question is for folks with multiple kids playing hockey over several age groups. They get a better feel for an organization as a whole instead of particular birth years.  Anyone care to offer an opinion as to why they like where they are or why they switched to a different organization. Seems like Preds, Mt Lebo and SHAHA would compete for thIt e same kids.  How do you pick one over the other?  I think most others start because of proximity to the rink.

 

It depends on your kids ability.  If they are AA players, then you are team shopping and probably know which organization has the better core of kids and coach.  If not then it is personal preference.  And by personal preference, I mean cost, time to get there, how many slots a week, and whether or not there is a set practice time or not, friends, etc.  The worst thing is having a practice with 5 kids there.  So, we like teams that kids show up and take it seriously. 

Our kids every other year or so play at different organizations, which means we accept that they could be on the ice the same time at two different rinks.  Our kids like hockey and don't do it casually so we are willing to arrange schedules to make it work. 

Midgets is tough especially for a goalie.  Fewer teams and your son is a 06 and not an 05.  I am not even sure if you can get placed on some of the school teams around here at this point.

I think the Icemen have 2 goalies already on their 06 team.

One way to approach this is to have your son take a lesson or two from Shane Clifford and have him make suggestions.  He may know who is still looking for a goalie.

I would probably just email some organizations.  I doubt a AA team will have an opening.  

1 hour ago, Jack Handey said:

Did you mean to say "Good for me"?

Might have been poorly worded.  But, if they want to join the Icemen, great.  Everyone has to pick a team that they will be happy playing for.  Hockey is a long season.  Kind of tough if you aren't happy with the team, coach, etc. 

3 hours ago, hockey57410 said:

Why is everyone bashing Icemen?  They are what they are and anyone who plays for the organization obviously knows what they are getting themselves into.  Unless you live under a rock, you know the caliber of their teams and the ir track record.

Agree.  These are kids and parents who do not want to be on a regular PAHL team and a willing to spend the money.  Good for them.  

44 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

The only worry is needless and excessive practice travel distance multiple times per week for the families that want to commit to AAA hockey in their younger years. I agree with Black Bear (if it really is how they feel) that the south hills needs a high level option for these kids, above and beyond what PAHL offers. Right now all of those options are very far for south hills kids.

Doesn't the South Hills have AAA teams already?  Lebo 08 is AAA.  06 SHAHA is AAA.  Can't get a straight answer about 07 SHAHA.  Some say it is independent?  Is that AAA?  Preds have plenty of AAA teams.  No way the parents in control of those teams move to Southpointe.

4 hours ago, Saucey said:

I've observed the exact opposite. Many kids I know who play up develop more in PAHL. A top AA player can and does do well up. An entire rising BY playing AA frequently struggles and I think is better as an A Major team if you are going to do it.. But the next year, they tend to be a dominant team at AA.

But it also depends on the kid. And size. And if the birth year team is uneven talent, or playing over their heads as a faux AAA team, that is definitely not better. I don't see Icemen improving players. The kids end their season at the same level. When BY trumps talent, some weaker players get put on the team sometimes. 

It is entirely illogical to play 'AAA' hockey when it is over the team's head. That's not development. It makes no sense to me to play at that level with a roster with some AA players all the way down to low level players and call that superior to a mixed team of similar skill playing in a division of similar level teams, all in the name of playing 'BY'. 

And I know plenty who were disillusioned with Icemen. The rosters change quite a bit each year. Do Parents get to decide, ultimately. There will always be an Icemen team of some sort for the disgruntled and disillusioned.

I don't think many kids can do it unless the top birth year is weak.  At best one or two kids can do it in an organization.  SHAHA 07 played up.  They had a more competitive year than 07 Badgers who ran the table and won both banners.    

People that I know that went the Icemen route have been pretty happy with the coaching.  I do agree at some point they get disillusioned with the team's performance.

On 6/23/2021 at 1:28 PM, sadday4hockey said:

No, it means everyone that wasn't placed on one of these teams.

SHAHA

Vengeance

Preds

Esmark

Renegades

North Pitt

Am I forgetting any 06 teams?

 

Most of the Icemen kids probably had no chance for Vengeance or SHAHA.  The NP 06 team from last year lost half their kids due to low 05 numbers and 2 kids made Vengeance, right?  Esmark fell apart.   So, you are left with the Renegades and the Preds.  Preds haven't had much luck with their 06 team for a few years.  Allegheny has a nice 06 team.  Artic Foxes were a train wreck.  

But regardless, are those kids supposed to stay with a PAHL team that they don't want to be on?  We all know that would be a train wreck.  Most of the people that I know that have gone to the Icemen have had a positive experience.

The blame really lies with some of the PAHL organizations for not getting their act together.  If they had those kids wouldn't be heading to the Icemen.

Essentially, the non-birth year model helps the older birth year if they are short on kids.  However, I think most of the kids that play up would be better off if they played with their birth year.  The reason, they would have more success on the ice.  Frankly, the younger kids just can't do as much against older kids.  This doesn't help the players development.  It is one thing if you are the star of the team but if you are on the bottom line and do not see power play or pk time then you are definitely better off playing with your birth year. 

4 hours ago, forbin said:

I am starting to understand a little more as to why some people posting are totally against the faux AAA teams and given the last couple of comments I took a look at SCIR's website to see what the 16U National Bound team offers. To me it looks nearly identical, if not more involved than some of these other "AAA" programs, so my question to the knowledgeable folks here is what is the monetary difference between these teams and the "faux" AAA teams? 

 

 

This is hard to find.  They play a ton and are on the ice a ton.  This isn't the case with all PAHL teams.    

22 hours ago, 3 Boys said:

Their numbers were up because they were the LAST organization to hold tryouts, lol.

Yes.  But this merely means that that many kids were unhappy with the team that they made.

1 hour ago, Jack Handey said:

This won't get participation from the teams that are true national contenders.  And by the way, they all think they are national contenders. 

I think the whole point was to get the kids on the lesser AAA teams, like Icemen and the Preds, to play PAHL.  These kids are the kids that love hockey and want to play as much as possible.  This means more practice and more games.  They also want a non-Dad on the bench.  They want the matching bags, etc.  Basically, they want everything that PPE and Esmark offer and regular PAHL teams don't.

13 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

 

You have to be careful with how many times a plays another team. In league play, once you hit 4 times it often times begins to deteriorate either on the ice or in the stands.

Or both.

I would keep it to 5 teams.  Have each team play the 4 other teams either 3 or 4 times.  Frankly, what these parents/players want is to play less PAHL games and not more.  By keeping it to 5 teams I think you make it so each team is competitive.  The more teams you have the more likely you have some teams that aren't very good and this defeats the whole purpose.

If 4 games this sets up nicely for two home games and two away for each team.

41 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Great points.

But parents of even very low skilled players demand travel. Again, we have a very parent driven market. It gets hard for organizations to say no when everyone else provides what parents demand. And as I hear from all the AAA people...if parents want to pay for their in house player to travel to State College or what ever, who am I to tell them that probably isn't great for them developmentally, that those dollars might be better spent on individual skating lessons? (Yes, that's sarcasm.)

I think our market is currently operating on wishful thinking. Wishing we were a bigger market and operating just like the big markets do, with BY teams, loads of AAA options, etc. Instead of looking at what we have (dad coaches without much hockey experience, for example) and trying to build from there (train dad coaches until the kids who played return to coach) to get to those levels.

You want more ice time? Do we want that ice time to come at the expense of cutting kids? Our area doesn't have the ice rinks like other rinks do. We don't have private ODRs due to weather. And do parents want to pay more at those young ages? Do they want all that time? Do the kids? I have pretty good players. They weren't on top teams at squirts or on the ice more than twice a week for mites. They were not interested in more practice, either. ? They didn't do privates until bantam, when they asked for them. More isn't always necessary so long as the ice touches you do get are quality, which it sounds like doesn't always happen in many organizations, particularly at lower levels. My kids caught up when they wanted to.

But we do have deck rinks. Maybe adjust in that sense, in those ways.

I'd like this area to look at what we have and build from there. Not pretend to 150 AAA players at each level or what ever. I think that holds our market back.

And what is the end goal? Should it be to have everyone running around trying to chase the dream when that is so rare, or should it be fun and development for all who want to play, regardless of how good that child may be? Right now it's the chasers driving the market, to the detriment of the majority,I think.

You are viewing it wrong.  PAHL isn't travel hockey.  PAHL is our local league.  PPE and Esmark are travel.  

If you want the lesser AAA teams to go away, make sure that your organization has a AA team coached by a non-parent and play 60 games.  Two weeknight touches a week.  Run it like the PPE and Esmark.  Don't have a vote about which tournament you want to do or whether you want an extra practice.   And most importantly, demand/require attendance.   

And PAHL should require this to be AA at Peewee and above.  Limit it to 5 organizations.  

12 hours ago, Saucey said:

Those guys don't stick around long in my experience. Driven out by crazy parents. Young guys return from D1, want to give back only to find much better ways to spend their time after a year or two of being crapped on. Again, too many people are over the top awful. It's unfortunate, the young guys are frequently tremendously beneficial to the game and kids, and that is a shame to lose them.

I also know plenty good of the much maligned dad coaches. There is much more to coaching than having played at a high level. Another narrative this board pushes, as well as those pushing the sale of the extra A. But it is better to have experience once you get to the older levels. So long as you have someone who knows what they are doing to lead to the younger program who passes that on to parent helpers, you can develop good dad coaches. But I've mentioned before...I think that development is being sorely neglected around here, with all resources going to top teams and less and less attention being paid to developing those young players who could be very good once they hit puberty. And new coaches get very little help to really learn, so it not really fair to crap on the volunteer dad WHO MAY HAVE STEPPED UP when no else would. USA Hockey could do a heck of a better job to provide useful training instead of regurgitating the same stuff every year.

Frankly, the younger "coaches" that don't have kids should probably run skills sessions for an organization.  That way they are kept away from the parents.  And they can impact the most kids.

A former college hockey player who has a kid is ideal provided he is able to coach.   And even a Dad who hasn't played but can coach is okay when the kids are younger.  At some point that isn't enough. 

The problem is that we are sometimes stuck with Dad coaches who haven't played hockey and can't coach.    And because they want to help they get into an organization and end up coaching for a few years before they are asked not to help anymore.  Once a Dad has a team for a year he is viewed as a "qualified" coach by the organization.

You can also look at it another way, that the development that many non-PPE kids receive is so poor that few have a chance to make the PPE down the road.  There was one local 06 that made it and one local 07 that made it.  I think 08 might have some influx from the Vengeance, right?  Not sure where those kids where from.  At one point, PPE had a billet rule.  But I think that is sort of not enforced or they get around it due to the ability of some parents to actually move here and telecommute.  

All roads lead the beer league is poor way to look at it.  Every sport has a few guys that make it as pros,  But by playing in college, whether it be division 1 or club, means that down the road you have parents who have played the game and just might give something back to the game.  This is a good thing and we are better off with these guys coaching our kids than some guy that never played hockey. 

The bigger organizations will just about always have a AA team in each division.   Especially in Squirts and Peewee.