twoboys

1 hour ago, forbin said:

Is this true? I always assumed it was just "recommended". Is the Excel program included in the season fees for 16U and 18U PPE players? 

The birth year that I am most familiar with has everyone at North Catholic and Excel.

17 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

that's bc the older kids parents see the bullshit in the the excel program..... of course the younger has the waiting, bc they are drinking the kool aid. 

That isn't true.   At the high school level, the kids need to be able to get their before school lets out.  Hence the North Catholic version of the program.  

9 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Sure it can start to add up, one day a week is great for younger kids working with a skating coach. My oldest worked with his skating & skills coach until he was done playing. Constant reps of edge work is the best thing, even as they get older. The pros still work with skating coaches. 
 

I guess in a sense, I was fortunate what hockey cost just a few years ago compared to now. The landscape has changed as I’ve stated before. There are ways to manage skating and skills sessions that won’t break the bank. In the summer, put a group together with 3/4 kids and skate twice a week your favorite guy. 

Theses days skills guys are anywhere from 40-60 for group lessons.   A private is usually more.   Sometimes you have to pay the rink 10 a session.    

Now, kids take a ton of lessons early on and make the PPE/Lil 66ers.  They can usually hang on for a while.  Cause most of the kids do Excel.  There is a wait list for Excel at the younger ages.  

53 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Not necessarily, your kid will develop better and get more out of a GOOD skating coach or skills guy. 

My one son has taken lessons from a bunch of different instructors over the years.  At times he never misses a week and other times he doesn't go for a few months.  The way I see it is that 1/3 of the kids taking lessons are already playing AAA.  1/3 are not even close to playing AA.  The rest are in between.  And for the most part, most of the time the kids taking lessons are Squirts and Peewees.

I would think that in order to significantly improve a kid better take at least a couple of lessons a week on top of his or her practices.  Most parents aren't willing to put the time or money to this extent.  Basically, a hundred a week.  400 a month.  7 month season total about 2800.  Plus the off season when it probably is even more expensive cause you are probably trying to get you kid on the ice ton.  It is rare that a parent trying to save money by playing PAHL will spend that kind of money.  More likely, a parent/kid wants to play AAA but isn't good enough so they take lesson to try and improve.

On 10/9/2021 at 10:30 PM, Danner27 said:

Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension ?
 

PPE / ESMARK vs FAUX AAA. The point is, if you kid is Aspiring to play REAL junior hockey, locally these are your only two & best options to achieve this path. Locally (14U & up - when it matters) these two clubs are where the best local players are playing. Yes, PPE is on a higher level and your kids chances are greater. Yes - more than likely, even coming out of these programs your kid will end up playing acha hockey. 
 

yes, the top 25 acha m1 programs will beat the majority of ncaa d3 teams. ncaa d3 is status hockey “my kid plays ncaa hockey”. The majority of  ncaa d3 programs are on par with most acha m1 programs when it comes to skill, speed etc. not to mention, look at a lot of these schools that have ncaa d3 programs, would you really want you kid going there for academics ? They use the ncaa tag to get kids to attend some of these schools. College is a business. 

Sure you will get a few kids out of tier 3 that make the good acha m1 teams. similar to PPE / Esmark needing 4th line players. 

The way that I look at it is different than others.  I see playing for a decent ACHA Div 1 team as an accomplishment and a good thing for a kid.  Unfortunately, to play on some of these club team you have to play juniors, right? 

I just don't get knocking AAA hockey at birth years below Bantam Major.  When I look at it, most/all of the Pens Elite kids have been there since the beginning or they have been recruited from out of town.  So, if you want to play for the PPE and have the best shot at Juniors you have to get in the system early.  Am I wrong?  At u15, didn't one Pahl kid crack the PPE this year?  And he played up for his Dad, right?  And at 07, one kid left made it from the Vengeance, right?  Not from a PAHL team.  Didn't the PPE bring in 08 kids from Vengeance this year?   Am I missing something, how does one go ahead and develop by playing PAHL and make the PPE when they are older?  Just doesn't seem likely.

4 hours ago, HockeyDad23 said:

That 2010 AA Aviators team is coached by a coach that coached 10U AA at NP last year. He left and took most of the players from that team to the Aviators.

I think most were Renegades (maybe 2/3?)  You can tell because the white helmet kids are the former Renegades, I think.

On 9/22/2021 at 5:44 PM, BeaverFalls said:

Youve bashed “smaller” (see inferior) organizations repeatedly on this bored, while acting hokey and as if people can’t see through your thinly veiled act as to who you are and what you’re advocating.

I don't think that is the reason.  I think it has to do with most smaller organizations are the only game in town.  Thus, the parent of a high level AA or AAA kid must decide if he or she wants to drive to another organization with a better team or not.  Or stay put and have their kid dominate at A Major Black.  This is usually the case in Squirts and to a lesser extent peewee.

3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So what AAA teams would you let your kid try out for? Only Pens Elite?  If he's not good enough to play for them just let him play PAHL?  Could be hard to get a 13 to 15 year old that has been one of the better PAHL players to understand that. Especially when he sees all the kids he grew up playing with and against playing for the so-called FAUX AAA teams.  This is all so interesting. Sure not like other High School sports.

Emark places plenty of kids in legit junior leagues.  

And at the 08 and 09 level the Vengeance is strong. 

When kids get to high school other forces come into play.  The desire to play high school hockey, to go to homecoming and have a social life, maybe play another sport in addition to hockey.  And oh yeah, it is much harder to make a U18 team.  Two birth years on one team.    

On 9/21/2021 at 4:42 PM, RJUSHL said:

What are the costs associated with playing four independently scheduled games in a weekend vs the cost is playing in a four-game tournament. Ignore hotel and travel costs for this comparison. 

The tournament is probably cheaper.  Ignoring hotel and travel.

On 9/21/2021 at 4:44 PM, muckerandgrinder said:

Newsflash: Independent teams generally get 10-12 home game slots (depending on age group) with refs/EMT   covered in their cost from their home organization. 

For instance, if a 10U team played a 14 game PAHL regular season and 6 placements they would get 7 regular season slots and 3 placement slots. An independent team gets all 10 to schedule as they see fit. Teams generally them play reciprocal away games equaling another 10 games covered by the host team. That’s 20 games minimum. 
 Above 10U it’s a 20 game regular season + placement home slots so you get 12 home games + refs/EMT. 
I get it that going independent costs a bit more but it’s getting a bit out of hand with the sensationalism. 

 

I know this but people were talking about adding independent games on top of their PAHL schedule. 

A few years ago my son's team moved down from AA.  It was pretty straightforward.  A minor team playing AA.  Lost our goalie from the prior year and our best player from the year before.  We were a shell of our former team.  Another time we asked to moved down.  Crickets.  Had an unbelievably bad record.  Surprisingly, no one (parents or kids) cared in the end.

Where the placement process really fails is at Pee Wee A Major Black.  Or at least it failed when my kids played there.  Usually, there is one team that deserves to be AA and doesn't gete it.  That team basically is unstoppable.  

35 minutes ago, forbin said:

What do those costs relate to? You should be able to secure ice time and refs for two games for less than $700 total. Or am I misreading this?

If you are playing an independent game, likely playing 15 minute periods.  Will need two refs and an EMT.  I may be off a bit but it is more than you think.

I think most of the better AA teams play Silver Sticks, CCM and others.  Also, probably play in the Harbor Center tournament and a Barons one.  The local ones are the throw ins scheduled after fact. 

Frankly, it doesn't make a difference to me if I drive two hours or four hours.  If you are a decent AA team you can't just go to any tournament.  You have to be picky.  And you better schedule some independent games.  2 games per team at home.  Guessing 700 a game.  So, 1400 for a pair of games.  Do this 3-5 times.  Your regular PAHL team isn't doing this. 

To those that complain about the travel, you completely ignore that most/all of the parents enjoy it.  And the parents that travel a lot are "hockey rich".  Which is more wealthy than the average rich family.

The other thing about playing a challenging schedule as a AA without travel is that a lot of ice is required.  Looking at SHAHA 09, they are hosting teams but had to rent ice from Rostraver.  Say you want to bring in 4 teams and offer every team 4 games, that is a lot of ice.  Most teams that travel for independent games travel for a minimum of 2 but prefer 4 if it is         

1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

Unless something has changed over the last few years, when my boys played PPE & Esmark did not charge (show) a coaching fee. It was all one lump sum. Ice slots, games, league fees, off ice, trainers, coaches etc. both of these organizations have staff on a seasonal salary for their work. Sure, you are paying for their salary in your seasonal fees but it was never shown nor talked about what any of the coaching staff made. 

This is what I have heard.  Esmark is all inclusive.  I think the Pens does have a team fund to pay for the coaches travel.

On 9/11/2021 at 4:29 PM, Jack Handey said:

LOL.  Growth happens through LTP, 8u ADM, house development, girls development, etc.  You need to read Saucey's remarks a little closer.

The organization is growing.  Sure they pulled kids from other organizations but they added teams.  I agree LTP and ADM grows the game of hockey. 

I get it people want PAHL to be stronger but what people don't understand is that each year more and more parents chose to leave PAHL.  That is issue.

2 hours ago, Saucey said:

I get where you are going, but people pick teams based on location a lot of times. That's a draft league and an entirely different scenario.

Playing the same three teams all season causes its own issues.

Make it regional....give people their travel by putting other AA MidAm teams in as part of regular season play.

I would rather play the same 3 teams 12 times and have competitive games.  Than play 20 games and only have 4 that are competitive.  Most of the my friends that have kids that play AA have moved organizations at least once.  I think the way to save AA is to shrink it.  Make it a big deal to play AA.  People will drive it if the team is worth it.      

People ignore the fact that this many parents are unhappy with PAHL.  

I know people want a legit AA division but we have too many teams trying to be AA.  It might be better to have a limit of 4 AA teams and have one tryout and then take the top 60 kids and split it up evenly.

5 hours ago, Saucey said:

With PIA having new ownership, who knows what will happen in the future. Black Bear may introduce their own programming and push some organizations out.

Pittsburgh has too many places for the disgruntled with stars in their eyes (pun intended) to go. These BY teams don't work in the long run in our small market. That nice team of 07s that you think will stay together forever, won't. Butler Valley may have thought that group didn't have the talent to play at AA or as a BY in Butler Valley's opinion and refused to hear otherwise. It falls apart eventually, but in the immediate, it hurts an organization, who might have thought this would not be good for the development of the kids.

Sorry, but parents shouldn't determine the makeup of a team, where the team should be placed and whether there is BY. 

"But people should be able to play where ever they want..." sorry, no. The Aviators are a perfect example of a disgruntled dad keeping things alive. I have to caveat that with it's been a few years since my boys played an Aviators team, but I never liked having an Aviators team in my division. They don't have a home sheet so it is problematic to schedule with them. Games don't go off smoothly or get cancelled, again due to their ice issues. And the player/parent behavior was frequently atrocious... because that kind of team attracts the disgruntled. They were fond of sandbagging tournaments, adding AAA players when playing in a division of A Major teams. 

Pittsburgh could use less of these places to go. Parents have too much power here and I think it hurts overall development and the hockey community as a result.

I mean, most of you can't even skate, but somehow you are an expert in how to best develop your kid.

The Aviators do have a home rink.  This is the second year they have played out of Alpha.  I actually think they are growing.  Did they go from 2 to 4 teams? 

The Huskies 07 team is stable.  The kids and the parents like it.  Each year a few leave and new kids come on board.  Again, everyone is pretty happy from what I have heard.  I actually think their fees are low.  They just don't have the overhead that other organizations have.  

50 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

Usually Pittsburgh hockey digest at least does an article or two?

agree.

28 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

Automatically AA?

Even if the whole AA team from last year moved up to bantam and the #2 team went 3-13 in A Major 3? 
  If that’s the case, why even waste games on placements? This actually adds to the reasons why some teams are moving on from PAHL at earlier ages.
For the record, I don’t like to see it because a solid, forward thinking (I emphasize “forward thinking”) local league is good for the game and the kids who play it. 
As far as scheduling goes, it’s not easy, but it’s not that hard to narrow down what would constitute a good matchup. I’ve done it and have scheduled games as early as May right after tryouts. (I do not miss it though! Lol) I look at your ranking and opponents  last season, you look at mine. Sometimes you have to look back a year or two. Sometimes you have to make a phone call.

   I will tell you this….HOME game or not, there is nothing worse than a team rep selling his/her team at a higher talent level than they are and wasting both team’s weekend with uncompetitive lopsided results. This happens way too often and from all I hear it’s getting worse.
 Sadly, some parents thoroughly enjoy winning three or four games over a weekend by 10 goals each. 

 

Larger organizations usually have a AA team every year.  And they make up probably 75 percent of the AA teams.  Every so often you have smaller organization with a AA team.  Huskies at 07 and Aviators have a strong 10 team.  

 I don't think you realize how hard it is to get AAA, or even high level AA (talking top 10) teams, to come to Pittsburgh.  Even the Pens have less than 10 home games is my guess.  EVen the Vengeance at the younger birth years (08 and 09) which are strong teams play in Cleveland cause teams don't want to come all the way to Pittsburgh.  Home games are a treat for AAA teams even if they are terrible.  Sure you complain, but you also take it cause you saved a good amount of money.

PPE overall is on a different level but at some ages that is not the case.  U18 Esmark is usually close enough to the PPE that they should play each other.  Same goes for the Vengeance at some of the younger birth years (2008 and 2009).

I disagree with the AA issue you raise.  PAHL usually places teams in divisions based on previous years.  So, if you were AA one year you will likely be AA the next.  Even if you are lousy it is very hard to move down.  Better chance of moving up than down.   Everyone knows that the AA advertisement during tryouts is just a goal not a guarantee.  If you don't you haven't done your homework and you deserve what you get.   

And you have to schedule games early.  Everyone does it so it involves a certain amount of guess work.  If you play an away game, for the most part home team doesn't care if you are good or bad cause they have a HOME game.    

I think most of people complaining miss the point of playing AAA hockey.  Kids play AAA hockey cause they want to play Junior hockey.  Without junior hockey, you have a hard time making some ACHA club teams.  

Most of non traditional AAA teams or AA/AAA exist due to a heavily involved Dad who wants to be involved or have control.  

The 06 Vengeance went 3-0 in Buffalo.  06 Preds went 1-2.  07 Shaha beat 07 Vengeance twice.

On 7/28/2021 at 10:06 AM, RJUSHL said:

Two sheets of ice is HUGE. I think the second sheet at Southpointe is going to start slowly shifting some south hills kids that way. I think some school districts are already planning the move to Southpointe (besides just Peters, Canon Mac, and Trinity). I also think the southern beltway is going to start brining some Robinson and west hills kids to Southpointe. Will be such an easy drive and I think driving is always an aspect that is a biggeByr deal than people like to admit.

I think for the most part parents stay with their local rink for Mites and Squirts.  By the time kids get to Peewee, parents are willing to drive their kids to a different rink.  By the time you kids is a peewee, you know if a coach is any good, the team is ok, or whether or not you are getting the short end of the stick at tryouts.

We live in the North Hills and we know countless people who go to the South Hills and vice versa.    

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

My question is for folks with multiple kids playing hockey over several age groups. They get a better feel for an organization as a whole instead of particular birth years.  Anyone care to offer an opinion as to why they like where they are or why they switched to a different organization. Seems like Preds, Mt Lebo and SHAHA would compete for thIt e same kids.  How do you pick one over the other?  I think most others start because of proximity to the rink.

 

It depends on your kids ability.  If they are AA players, then you are team shopping and probably know which organization has the better core of kids and coach.  If not then it is personal preference.  And by personal preference, I mean cost, time to get there, how many slots a week, and whether or not there is a set practice time or not, friends, etc.  The worst thing is having a practice with 5 kids there.  So, we like teams that kids show up and take it seriously. 

Our kids every other year or so play at different organizations, which means we accept that they could be on the ice the same time at two different rinks.  Our kids like hockey and don't do it casually so we are willing to arrange schedules to make it work.