twoboys

The Vengeance will have an 07 team this year.

Esmark usually doesn’t work til Midgets.  The exception was the 03 team which left the Renegades for Esmark at some point.  Was it Bantams?

I don’t think people realize that non-checking hockey makes checking hockey possible.  All of the mite, Squirt and Peewee teams make your Bantam and Midget teams possible.

21 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

All of these factors -- coach's expectations, ice slots/times, cost for parents -- should be laid out during tryouts. If players/parents don't want to play a 20-game PAHL schedule plus an additional 20-30 tournament/independent games to prepare for a run at Nationals, those players/parents can always consider trying out for A or B teams.

 

This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of high level PAHL AA teams that consist of players developed within their respective organizations.

It is your prior post that contains the quote that I feel is inaccurate.  What happened 15-20 years ago is frankly irrelevant to youth hockey today.  The team that is the closet to home grown is probably Armstrong's National Bound Program.  They play a ton of games including independent games and better tournaments.  I heard there are a fair number of kids from the area but there are also kids that travel pretty far to play for them.  Have your kids played AA in PAHL recently?  Recruiting is happening left and right.  One organization gets a coach and has a plan and they reach out to everyone to fill the team.    

6 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Over the last 15-20+ years, a significant amount of AA teams from Allegheny, Altoona, Armstrong, North Pittsburgh, Preds, Vipers, SHAHA, Southpointe, Steel City, etc. have consisted of players developed within their respective organizations -- many of these players moved on to play AAA, Junior, and/or College (NCAA and ACHA) hockey. Recently, the increased number of faux-AAA and independent AA teams have, unfortunately, caused players/parents to be more concerned with collecting jerseys than organizational development. 

I think you proved my point if you have to go back 15-20 years to come up with some high level home grown AA teams. 

Let's make it easy.  Why don't we just talk about this years teams. 

11 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

I would qualify "plenty" as 6-8. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to name 3.

I also think you have to define high level.  Not every AA team is high level.  I would bet that at most 2 teams per age group could be considered high level.

I think this thread is proof that a lot of people really only care about the cost.   They don't care if they get the extra ice or not. 

17 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

There's nothing stopping AA teams from playing a 20-game PAHL schedule on top of 30-40 additional tournament/independent games -- countless PAHL AA teams have played this type of schedule over the last 15-20 years. All of the faux-AAA and independent AA teams (Icemen, Viper Stars, Mt. Lebo, Vengeance, etc.) would make PAHL a much stronger league.

The only thing stopping the PAHL teams from doing it are the PAHL teams.  For starters, if the coach doesn't want to do it then it won't happen.  The organization also has to give them extra ice slots for practice and independent games.  That may not be possible.  If it is possible then you got to pay more.  Does everyone want to pay more?  Not always the case.  Sometimes, parents are happy to play AA and a couple of tournaments.  And lastly, they need prime practice slots since kids are likely traveling some distance to get there.  If you are having a high level AA team your team probably isn't home grown.  All of this makes the other teams in the organization mad and jealous. 

I don't get people complaining abut the Icemen.  A friend's son has played there for a couple of years and has nothing but positive things to say about the coach.  Then again it is only one coach.    

You do realize that kids flock to the the faux AAA organizations as you call it because they don't want to play PAHL.  The issue is with PAHL and PAHL organizations not giving the consumers what they want.  Give the AA teams more ice and a qualified coach and people will stay. 

We all know certain rinks have 7 am games.  Getting rid of those will go a long way.  An early game in Morgantown or Erie to me is less desirable than a night in Cleveland or Buffalo.  The away tournaments are a draw for families of the faux AAA teams.  Usually the kids and and parents like them.

But what really makes parents mad is if the coaches kid plays way more than the other kids.  Of if he is a terror and is always in the box and there is no attempt to stop the behavior.

56 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

  On 2/4/2020 at 2:13 PM, HSFBLJ said:

Do we consider the 61st ranked 14u AAA team in this discussion?  Probably would have done well in PAHL AA.

You guys crack me up.  I just glanced at the ranking.  105 teams in AAA 2005, 45 teams below them.  They’d be 5th (ish) in tier 2.  Not great, not bad.  As for the Preds as a whole, I’m not sure if I’d go back or not.  They are the same as every other club.  Some good things, some bad, some very bad.  Question is, do the pros out weigh the cons?

 

Not to be outdone, the 14U Preds just took it on the chin 12-0 thanks to Pens Elite as well.

 

OrrWhat you may want to look at this

I think being the 5 team in AA is awesome.  Can't fault them for playing AAA.

10 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Yes, judging by their tuition, Shadyside Academy is very doable for most families:

$9,250-13,500 Pre-K $16,250 K $18,975 1st $20,250 2nd-5th $25,100 6th-8th $29,675 9th-12th $13,000 five-day boarding fee $16,500 seven-day boarding fee $2,000 international boarding fee

?

If you are playing PPE you are already paying 15,000 a year.  Shadyside does give aid.  I heard it is a nice amount. 

18 hours ago, Theroadtobeerleague said:

It won’t be “true” AAA unless ALL of the 2005s who don’t make Pens Elite U15 or U16 decide to play there.  Again, the best kids from that birth year who don’t play Pens Elite are all spread out across the current other 2005BY teams.  They won’t all go to the same non-Pens Elite team, because of geography and parents who think more of their kid than they should.  Take the best 6 kids from Preds 05, the top 4 from PPE Black, and the best 1 or 2 from each of the AA 2005 BY teams, and THAT is an AAA team. But that won’t happen, so instead the SHAHA team will be one of 4-5 teams with 4-6 true AAA players and the rest not so much.  Facts. 

Makes no sense.  Why wouldn't they just try out for the Preds?  I bet Esmark will have an U15 team.  At midgets is when Esmark really starts to form teams.  They had an exception, the 03 group, who left the Renegades while they were Bantams, right?  Esmark tried with the 05 or 06 a couple of years ago and it didn't work.

The interesting thing with 05 will be what will the Icemen do?  Become a Yeti, play Tier 2 Independent  or become AAA.  Same goes for the 05 Viper Stars.  Will they stay Tier 2 Independent or will they become the Esmark Stars U15 team.

My kids have done it both ways when they started Squirts.  In my opinion, if your child is one of the top two players in his birth year in large organization then he or she probably should play against older kids on a mixed team.   The rest of the kids are fine to stay together.  The problem if the top players stay together with their birth year they will single handedly raise the level at which a Minor team plays.

31 minutes ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

Straight from the MidAm Website:

6.  Eligibility for National Tournament Play: 

 

  In order for any team to be eligible for National Tournament play, the Local Association must have been in existence and approved by Mid Am for a minimum of three (3) prior consecutive years.   For Tier I District tournament, the top six (6) ranked District teams pursuant to MHR will be entered into the District Tournament, the winner of which commits to participate in National Tournament Play.

 

MLHA fits into this as while they have not been Tier 1, the Local Association has been in existence for far more than 3 years,
 
7.  Minimum Number of Youth National Bound Teams: 

 

Any Local Association rostering Youth Tier I teams must have at least two (2) National Bound Youth teams from the 14U, 15 Only, 16U or 18U categories in either the Tier I or Tier II categories.

 

MLHA fits into this as well since their 15U is playing Tier 1 and the 14U team is Tier 2 AA.

 

So yes, both of these teams ironically have kids from said coach but they are meeting the parameters without needed assistance or pull. 

So, what does a national bound team actually mean?  I have no clue.  Isn't every team potentially nationally bound?

42 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

"Nothing in fact"......that is the essence of everything you post here, bro.  All you do is state opinion, not fact.  

Sorry I can't produce receipts but as I have said before, if there is a parent out there from a PAHL or PPE Black team, feel free to either validate my claim or dispute it.

I will go slow so follow along.

As an example, YTD Black 06 has had ten away tournaments so far this year.  Hotel costs ( two nights, sometimes three ) plus meals, a conservative estimate of $500 OOP per tournament.  10 X $500 = $5K.  This does not include tournament fees that exceed what is allocated and budgeted by the team. 

Coaches travel and lodging expenses for away tournaments are included in the "team fee," which is an additional cost.  So depending on length of away tournaments, frequency etc I will stand by my estimate of $12K-14K per season.  And if said player chooses to be part of Excel that is another $4,500 however I don't believe its required at this age.

As far as your original question, I answered it long ago......you just didn't like the answer.  

I quickly looked at their schedule and 10 away tournaments seems high.  I think they played 50 games.   I didn’t count the home games but they had a decent amount.  

You have to pay attention to the times of games and the opponents.  My quick guess is 12-13 nights in a hotel.  The manager of this team and others like it will try and schedule the first game late enough so that you can leave in the morning.  Also, try to do up and backs if possible.  Most of the time it looks like they did.  So, 13 x 150 is 1950.  Plus gas and tolls.

And the stay to play ones are the worst cause cause you are almost always spending 3 nights.  So, the average PAHL team playing 3 away Hockey Time tournaments or whatever may have 9 nights in a hotel.

Hockey is expensive regardless where you play.

19 minutes ago, The King said:

Is that really when it existed? Serious question. Is it possible that an organization formed a second level of teams to satisfy the demand? Listen, I have no allegiance there or anywhere. But I have said repeatedly that false information is so easily distributed and honestly I think it should be criminal. Because people (albeit people that aren’t very bright) waste a lot of time and money based off of false information. This board is a cesspool of bad information. Please don’t feed into it. At least qualify it as an opinion. 

Clearly, the Black teams served a purpose.  They needed to fill ice slots.  It wouldn't surprise me if they originally thought that the Black teams were going to serve as a feeder team only to learn that it didn't really work out as intended. 

However, the reason why parents chose to write the checks to the PPE is different.  Generally speaking, they wrote the checks because they liked that option better. 

I am not sure if PAHL will benefit that much.  We have to wait and see what new teams will pop up in response to this.  The Black teams existed because "consumers" weren't happy with the offerings of PAHL organizations.

47 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

At this age, the worst thing you can do is turn your nose up to your son playing PAHL.  With the right organization and right coaches, your son will develop both from a social and hockey acumen standpoint.  There's lots of anabolic parents out there that feel their kid needs to wear the extra A, don't fall into that trap.  Convenience, cost and extent of travel are also things you should really consider.

 

Plenty of years ahead to consider AAA hockey as your son develops.

Finding the right coach is the hard part. 

As for cost, the Vengeance fees are reasonable but they do travel a lot.  So, keep that in mind.  Zieler does a very nice job with the kids.  So, if I was on the fence without a clear option I may see if my 09 could make the team.

On 2/11/2020 at 12:30 AM, nemesis8679 said:

I've seen him work with kids, looks like  he really knows his shit and gets them going. That said, when I've been around, he seems like he's usually working with older kids- maybe a bit intense for squirt or peewee? I only mention it because he seems like a great coach. But if he coaches young kids (that just want to play hockey, or who are there because their parents make them) like the older kids, I could see where maybe they'd get burned out after so much of it? Again, by all accounts he's very good, and I only mention it because as much as I've thought about signing mine up for one of his summer camps, I've also considered 14 or 15 to maybe be a more appropriate age for that type of training? But I don't really know, or any know nobody to ask who's had that experience with a 12 or under kid. 

Yuri is good skills instructor.  My kids have never taken a lesson from him.  However, I have watched him give lessons plenty of times.  I think part of the reason that he mainly gives lessons to older kids is that the older kids want to get in good with him.

Last year he did a weekly clinic with Posey and it was well attended.  Broken down into two sessions, one maybe 06 and up and one younger.  

On 2/8/2020 at 12:42 PM, Hockeyaintathang said:

When are tryouts for this team? I have a 2011 and 2009 looking to make the switch from mt Lebanon to AA or AAA birth year team. 

The Vengeance tryouts are usually early.  

The 08 and 09 teams turned out to be better than the 10 team.  Essentially, most of the top 10 mites stayed with the Pens.  However, they are still a very good 10 team in comparison to other PAHL 10 teams.  Just not as good as the older two teams.

Too early to tell how the 11 team will turn out.  

On 2/7/2020 at 6:58 AM, Lifelongbender said:

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. That feels like a recipe to waste half an hour of expensive ice.

I am not a Vengeance parent but I have watched parts of their practices over the years.  The 08 coach does a real nice job.  And Zeiler is very enthusiastic.   Kids seem to have fun. 

For the most part, your mite coaches will be the same coaches for squirt.  So, if you are happy then no need to look around.  Usually, there are only a couple of kids that evaluate higher than the rest of a mite team.  If this is your kid then he will probably have one of the existing squirt coaches as your coach next year.  So, you should have a clue who the coach could be at your organization. 

On 2/3/2020 at 9:37 AM, fafa fohi said:

And I quote......

To your point, last year SCIR had two BY teams in AA U12.  The second team should have been an A Major Black team but I assume egos with parents and coaches got in the way of reason and they were placed in AA.........they went 8-28-3.

https://myhockeyrankings.com/team_info.php?y=2018&t=16939

What part of this post is untrue?  Or are you one of the parents or coaches that was cool with an 8-28-3 record because of the extra A on your lapel?  Facts suck sometimes but they remain facts.

 You statement was more than facts.  It included an assumption that you made.  

My kids have played in this.  Never thought it was a big deal.  It is just more hockey.  I think the reason why it isn't more popular is because Pittsburgh to Philly is a brutal drive.  The 14U championship ends at 4:50.  That drive home is going to suck even if you win.   

And saving half of a tournament fee is not much of an incentive.  Especially, if you are the team traveling. 

4 minutes ago, g8586 said:

can someone answer why making the team 18u “prep” rather than 18u will make the team better or more desireable for players? right now the 18u team plays the same prep teams as the 16u does. what will make the team different next year just because it’s called “prep”?  either way it just depends on the players the team gets. why will adding the word prep mean the team gets the better players?

I don't get it either.  It is almost like they are forming the team for the benefit of North Catholic.  Trying to give those attending NC/Excel a reason to stay at North Catholic after U16.  Or maybe if they get pushed off the team after U15 they can stay at North Catholic and play prep.

Most of the organizations are pretty similar.  
 

Generally speaking the better the team the more away tournaments you will likely do.  But, I would say most peewee teams are going away for tournaments 3 times.  The localized travel is hit or miss.  Sometimes you have Erie in your division, for example, and other years you don’t.  
 

I would pick the same rink that your middle school team plays out of. Less chance of conflicts.