RJUSHL

I see an announcement for both AHF and THF. Looks like some teams will be AHF (Tier II).

AHF West Division coming soon to a rink near you.

https://www.tier1hockeyfederation.com/pha-icemen-join-for-the-2023-24-season

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/pha-icemen-join-for-the-2023-24-season

Is their rink owned by Black Bear?

Have the Vipers found a new home? Will they be holding tryouts in a few months?

53 minutes ago, Saucey said:

RMU and Sourhpointe are the best locations to do it to make it accessable for everyone around the city.

If there ever is a legit competitor to PPE in Pittsburgh it will be at one of these two rinks.

But I do agree with some of the other sentiments in this thread; a commitment to local kids is important.

The little hyper-local strategies that are used are always funny. Orgs at competing rinks waiting until the org down the street posts dates, then undercutting those dates by at least 48 hours (commitment fee refund deadline) for each BY. It's a smart strategy that allows some orgs to pickup borderline AA players, who may make a team at an earlier tryout, but aren't confident they'll make the next one. They accept, 48 hours pass, they don't want to eat the commitment fee, so the earlier tryout team gets the player. For non BY or AA teams, the strategy can sometimes work in reverse.

ChiefKeef, tell me how PPE hurt you? There has to be an emotional and personal story behind your endless diatribe. I'm not saying that some of what you are preaching isn't true, but man this is getting exhausting.

On 1/27/2023 at 9:09 AM, aaaahockey said:

Speaking of which, looks like another year the second sheet isn't really happening at Printscape?

I was wondering about this as well. You would think there would've been an announcement. But people in the Rebellion organization are saying that Black Bear has told them to put together teams for next season based on two sheets of ice. They've always had to limit the number of teams in the past because of available ice. I'm sure it will be definitive in the next week or two when tryouts and expected number of teams are announced.

11 hours ago, Danner27 said:

The predators  U18 “AAA” lost 8-1 to the Lebo AA Pahl team. They currently have 3 Pahl teams ranked higher than them in the district! That program needs blown up, get Gary out and start over or just go away and be a Pahl / indie aa program. The Columbus chill have a higher rating ffs! Those predators teams are a  great example of parents wanting the extra A. These kids are not even mid level AA players, they are bottom line AA players. 

You have to look at each team in every organization on a case-by-case basis, instead of making sweeping generalizations about every team in an organization. There are a decent number of Preds AAA teams ranked higher than their Esmark counterparts. Are those Esmark teams examples of parents doing nothing but chasing that extra A?

9 minutes ago, ChiefKeef said:

So the south hills and whoever is not wanting to drive wherever is irrelevant. 

But it's not irrelevant. To have a legitimate competitor to PPE you need to tick all the boxes. Vengeance is already missing one of the boxes (location) before we even move on to other boxes.

I'm not saying Vengeance is a bad program. But they are certainly not positioned to either compete with or surpass PPE.

Believe me, I'm no PPE appologist.

14 hours ago, ChiefKeef said:

The vengeance are currently equipped to take on Cranberry kids fully.  They have 3 sheets,  they have a reputable staff there,  and they largely focus on Pittsburgh kids already. 

Location is still a major issue with Vengeance. It will never be what it could sitting way up 28 north and east of the city.

People don't like to admit this, but there is more hockey talent in the south hills than north of the city. Mt. Lebanon, Upper St. Clair, Peters Township, Bethel Park, etc. This is the sole reason why there are quite a few SHAHA and Preds teams ranked higher than Vengeance and Esmark. It's certainly not because of the "prestige" of SHAHA and Preds. It's because there is more talent in the south hills, and some families would never dream of driving to Alpha or New Ken.

Cranberry is doable, Harmarville is bad, and New Ken is atrocious for anyone coming from the south hills. Vengeance will never be what it could be, because of that location. You need something on the 79 corridor.

Interesting perspective @Deke715, thanks for sharing.

In the NAHA talks with Black Bear, was AHF discussed? Did they make it clear they had the intention of moving NAHA out of PAHL and into the AHF?

Did you get any sense that Esmark was on the move to a new a new rink (Printscape) like some others have speculated?

Is there anyone in a leadership position with PAHL on this message board? We've been looking at things from the Black Bear perspective and anticipating and speculating their next move. But it's just as valid to look at PAHL and think through ways they can improve and even respond to these coming changes.

Does PAHL have a game plan? Or do they feel this takeover is just inevitable, just like the DVHL out east?

4 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

If BB can offer their AAA league giving those AAA programs that play independent a league option with competition from the East and maybe draw in some OH teams then it could have a West division of that league.  Some teams may choose to play there even though they are not controlled by BB because it gives them a league instead of just playing for MHR ranking.

I agree with this. Esmark is already in the Black Bear Tier 1 league. And I think there will be a Tier 1 organization out of Southpointe that will play in the Black Bear Tier 1 league as well. But they don't have enough ice right now, but that may change.

4 minutes ago, rock said:

i heard they are 2 mil off from purchasing ice castle, so press could be in control soon,

I had not heard that about the Preds. That would be something.

But it does feel like every time we hear a rumor about a Black Bear purchase, it eventually comes to pass.

1 hour ago, rock said:

so if your  playing for a black bear rink next year regardless of level, you will be playin in their league. that means you will be traveling for league games, to philly, ohio, new jersey, michigan. so your in house lower level league games are now a travel league.. or your staying local and playing the same 4 teams over and over and over.. maybe that's ok for some.. IDK 

now in 5-10 years when they own all the rinks, less travel. maybe not a big deal.

I think your comparison of travel between Black Bear and PAHL may actually be reversed. I think the takeover is going to happen so fast and furious that there will be more local AFH teams than local PAHL teams.

A few dominoes will fall and then even organizations at non-Black Bear rinks will join the AHF. I think next season it's going to be 50/50, the season after that 75/25 local AHF teams to PAHL teams. The PAHL teams will need to travel more to find competitive teams unless they want to play the same three teams a half dozen times per season.

We know Allegheny Badgers, Rebellion, Huskies, Thunder, and Phantoms will be AHF organizations before we know it. I would guess next season. I believe Badgers are currently the largest PAHL organization? That's a lot of teams. Rebellion is also probably a top 7 or so origination in terms of PAHL teams.

Those teams will probably be the start of an AHF "West" division. And I actually think those orgs will pick up players and teams as ice allows it. Parents are suckers for the live scoring, app, all star games, and what they perceive as additional "exposure" for their kids.

And then all it takes is one or two more PAHL orgs in non Black Bear rinks to jump over to the AHF. All of a sudden Black Bear is no longer pushing the boulder up a hill. It's crested and starting to roll down hill, picking up the vast majority of other PAHL teams as it builds momentum.

I'm torn about all this. AHF has some pretty cool things. I think the hockey is probably better or at least more interesting than PAHL. But there is no doubt it's going to make youth hockey even more expensive in WPA.

47 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

The whole thing with Black Bear backing Huskies and not giving ice to Vipers or Vipers Stars but giving ice to Esmark came to a shock to ALL members of the NHAHA board. We believed we were in negotiations with them for ice and had been so for over a month.. So, I don’t really have any good answers other than we are working, as a whole, towards finding a new spot. It’s too early to even speculate on how that will end up looking.

Where was the impasse in negotiations? Like just about everything else, was it about money?

And isn't NHAHA and Esmark closely aligned, so Esmark continuing to work with Black Bear almost like stabbing NHAHA in the back? Probably too strong of a phrase but you know what I mean.

Whoa. Talk about a district completely underperforming and failing to advance players. I knew it was bad, but didn't know it was this bad.

It does seem like additional changes are likely. I have no inside information but it doesn't seem like Black Bear and Esmark are quite on the same page.

This has been speculated before but that long-rumored second sheet of ice at Printscape will have a big ripple effect. Everyone and their brother has been saying for about a month now that it's a basically a done deal. I'm skeptical. There are an absurd number of moving parts to make that happen.

My guess is that if Black Bear is unable to make an announcement about a second sheet at Printscape in the next week or so, it's likely not going to happen for next season.

But if (and that's a big if) they do announce an additional sheet of ice under Black Bear control, here are some possible outcomes that seem somewhat likely...

1. Esmark and Black Bear come to some arrangement and Esmark moves to Southpointe. Esmark tryout registrations would absolutely skyrocket if this happened. I think the numbers would shock a lot of people. And if they don't force high school kids to pay private school tuition, there may finally be somewhat of a PPE competitor in Pittsburgh.
2. Black Bear decides to keep letting Esmark use PIA, and Esmark continues to struggle fielding solid AAA teams, and continues to lose out to "lesser" organizations in the south hills like SHAHA and Preds. Esmark plays in a bad location for many, and there is already a lot of competition from Tier 1 only organizations north of the city.
3. Black Bear starts their fully owned/controlled AAA Tier 1 only program at Southpointe. If they do this correctly, this would rob SHAHA, Preds, and a lot of those south hills kids driving to New Ken or Harmarville to play AAA hockey.

Black Bear wins (market share, revenue) in a big way with option 1 and 3, but if option 2 happens I think it hurts Black Bear. Esmark will continue to decline in competitiveness and reputation.

But again, I don't think the second sheet at Southpointe is happening. If it is, Black Bear better get in gear and make an announcement. Orgs will be planning tryouts within a few weeks.

1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Why do we all just assume that this is all a bad thing?  Maybe just maybe it will lead to better hockey in SWPA!

It may very well lead to better, more competitive hockey in WPA. That would be great! But there is no doubt that it will lead to more expensive hockey in WPA.

Are you saying that the coach on the bench that tossed the goalie stick onto the ice is in charge of officials in some capacity? Glad the young ref tossed him.

What teams are playing here?

3 hours ago, AMR24 said:

We were told if we signed over, NHAHA would be for profit. They had no desire to keep the non profit status. I’m not entirely sure if that’s their line with the Huskies or Mon Valley but my guess is probably.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. 

But I still don't think it impacts kids doing fundraising campaigns. Sure, donations are not tax deductible, but that's not what Rock was referencing I don't think.

1 hour ago, rock said:

the main issue is fundraising, if a non profit concedes its charter then the team can no longer fundraise.

Not sure if this is how they are going to set it up, but Black Bear can still control an organization and have it registered as a non-profit at the same time. That wouldn't change anything with fundraising.

It's true that a non-profit is not "owned" by anyone or any company. They are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors could be employees of Black Bear, but that doesn't mean Black Bear owns the non-profit. My guess is that this is what Black Bear does. It's common control but not ownership.

2 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

You almost appear to have a quietly vested interest in this AHF takeover.

Competition is good, but monopolies are not.

Just the way the PPE arrival made the sport far more cut throat and created crazier parents so too will this at the Tier 2 level.

 

Zero vested interest in AHF taking over. In fact, my gut says it will be a bad thing for hockey in this region. I just read basically the entire AHF website last year when they had all sorts of drama with the DVHL and other leagues out east. And I specifically remember one of their selling points was an unbalanced schedule that has some sort of formula to minimize driving distances. But even with an unbalanced schedule, it's going to be way more driving that we currently have in PAHL, that is until they completely push PAHL out.

12 minutes ago, twoboys said:

They don’t need another AAA in the South.  They already have SHAHA and the Preds.  And Southpointe is an easy drive to Cramberry.  

Not really about what is needed. It’s about what will gather up market share, and the only way Black Bear can fold the best players in the South Hills into their ecosystem is to start a Tier 1 program in the South Hills in a rink they own.

It’s such an obvious strategy that I’d be shocked if it doesn’t happen. Only way to grab kids from the three big orgs in the south. 

11 minutes ago, bb2j3z said:

Huskies only fielded one 07 team this season.   Now boom they are fielding 8u to 18u teams next upcoming season exclusively at Pittsburgh Ice Arena owned by the same company.   

> How does a for-profit company take over a non-profit charter?  Seems like a big conflict of interest.

Well PAHL is moving to allow for profit organizations to participate.   Perfect timing right?

https://www.blackbearsportsgroup.com/teams.html

Site updated to include 3 PAHL teams under Black Bear.

Interesting.

I believe you've posted before about your involvement with the Rats to Rebellion rebrand (well done on that btw), so it sounds like you are involved in that organization.

How is South Pitt Rebellion responding to these changes? What does the future at that organization look like? Is a second sheet coming? Will the organization move to the AHF?