RJUSHL

5 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

And is all that a bad thing? 

What is the big worry? That it will cost more to play? Hockey is already the most expensive sport! 

I guess time will tell if it's good or bad and what will be the measuring stick?

Not necessarily bad, but it will certainly impact hockey in the region. I posted this more just because I'm anticipating their strategy playing out this way. It's just interesting watching it unfold.

Let me explain...

We all know that Black Bear is snatching up rinks, taking over programs, and will soon be moving those programs out of PAHL and into their AHF league. With this model they control revenue streams on three distinct levels. This is a genius move by them. The multiple revenue streams reduces their risk and it's easy for them to "tuck in" new rinks and organizations into their ecosystem. It's going to continue to pick up momentum at a faster and faster pace.

What's their biggest hurdle?

The South Hills has three large, well-established organizations, that play at rinks that will be next to impossible for Black Bear to acquire. The three organizations are pretty obvious:

1. Mt. Lebanon Hornets - Rink is owned by the district. 
2. Pittsburgh Predators - Well run rink with active owners that I can't imagine being sold.
3. South Hills Panthers - The rink is owned by the YMCA. That isn't going to change.

There are a lot of youth hockey players in the South Hills and a lot of them play at one of these three organizations. And part of the appeal is the built-in progression, whether real or perceived, of moving from a PAHL "A" team to a PAHL "AA" BY team, to an independent "AAA" team, all within the same organization. We don't have to re-hash the debate, but some of those AAA teams are very good teams, particularly some of the top 30 SHAHA AAA teams. This model is appealing for many of the good South Hills players that don't want to drive to New Ken or Harmerville, and who would have a hard time making a PPE team.

And because those rinks won't change ownership, Black Bear won't be able to exert pressure on a league change, and with the size of these organizations, that's a lot of money left on the table. That's a lot of kids that aren't contributing to the Black Bear bottom line. They want every youth hockey player in the region to contribute to their bottom line.

So how does Black Bear change this? What's their move?

They open up a second sheet of ice at Printscape, start a stand alone Tier 1 program out of that rink, and siphon off the best AAA level kids that are playing under the SHAHA, Preds, and Lebo Hornets brand. If Black Bear starts their own Tier 1 program with a unique brand at that rink (that they own), a lot of parents and kids will make the move. They just will. There's a perceived difference playing for a AAA SHAHA team with the same name and logo as the A Minor teams. There is a perceived difference in a Tier 1 only organization like Esmark or Vengeance. Once that comes to the South Hills via a second sheet at Printscape, Black Bear is going to scoop up a wide swath of South Hills kids.

17 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

But at what cost? I honestly believe they will take the teams out of PAHL and place them in their league which means much more travel. Single A teams don’t want to travel out to Philly every other weekend to play. 

We're not far away from an AHF "west" division. As Black Bear starts gathering teams for this new division, travel won't be as bad. Plus, the AHF plays an unbalanced schedule that factors in travel.

But you're right, at first the travel will be ridiculous, but once the "west" division is built out (will happen fast) the travel will be much lest.

PAHL will be on life support this time next year.

The Black Bear takeover of hockey in WPA continues. I'm not saying any of this is either good or bad. Most likely there are some positives as well as negatives that will come from a complete Black Bear takeover.

WPA rinks owned by Black Bear:

Printscape (Southpointe)
Palmer (Delmont)
PIA (New Ken)
Ice Garden (Rostraver)
Youngstown (Phantoms)

The Black Bear playbook is pretty obvious. We can see this not just in WPA but in other regions where they've moved in.

1. Buy a rink
2. Make a few modest upgrades
3. Raise the fees
4. Take over the organizations
5. Make the organizations leave their current league and join the AHF

Steps 1-3 have happened already in all those rinks. Looks like New Ken and Rostraver have just completed step 4. Black Bear controls the rink and the amateur organization that is the primary customer.

What's next?

• Huskies leaving PAHL for AHF
  • You'll notice on all the updated PIA website pages that talk about the Huskies (and not Vipers), there is no mention of PAHL. The move to AHF is coming.
• Mon Valley Thunder leaving PAHL for AHF
• Badgers being taken over by Black Bear
• Rebellion being taken over by Black Bear

From an outsiders perspective, it appears that the Badgers and Rebellion are very well run organizations that still have control over their organizations. I think it would be a shame if they were taken over by Black Bear. The only way for them to avoid a takeover would be the preemptively announce a a move to AFH. It's going to happen one way or another. Either with existing board control, or control by Black Bear.

I do think the graphic on the new PIA page puts to rest the rumors that Esmark is moving to Southpointe. What makes more financial sense (contingent on a second sheet at Southpointe) is for Black Bear to start their own Tier 1 program at Printscape that rink to play in their existing Tier 1 league.

14 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

The key to the USHL success and why it has equaled or surpassed the OHL is because they've never given in to expansion so it has never been watered down. Why change that?

I think an even bigger reason the USHL has had success is that players still maintain NCAA eligibility, unlike the Canadian Major Junior leagues (OHL, QMJHL, and WHL). More and more top Canadians are even going the USHL --> NCAA route. They play in a fantastic junior league, and then continue to develop while getting that college experience.

But you're right, fewer teams does tend to concentrate talent. I know many will disagree but I don't think it's too far fetched to think that the average talent level on a USHL team is better than many CHL teams. Even if that's not true yet, it's trending that way.

Personally, I doubt there are plans for a USHL expansion team in Cranberry. I doubt there are even plans for a NAHL team. But it wouldn't surprise me if they do have plans for some money-making questionable Tier III junior program.

8 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

A number have people mentioned that Esmark is moving to Printscape after they open their second sheet. This seems much more likely (moving from Black Bear rink to another Black Bear rink) than moving to a non BB rink and losing that significant revenue.

The big question is how much control BB has over Esmark. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this. Can BB of force Esmark to move to Printscape? I'm not sure. But if Printscape does open that second sheet of ice, you better believe that BB has some plans about how they intend to fill all that ice time. Could be schools, could be more South Pgh teams, cold be Esmark moving, could be a new Black Bear Tier 1 program like they run down in Maryland. Who knows.

1 hour ago, Sticktime56 said:

Speaking of moving in on youth hockey. Any truth to the chatter that Esmark will be using RMU as a base for teams to practice etc...? This would be huge as it brings these teams closer and the barrier for most people considering esmark is the drive right now.

A number have people mentioned that Esmark is moving to Printscape after they open their second sheet. This seems much more likely (moving from Black Bear rink to another Black Bear rink) than moving to a non BB rink and losing that significant revenue.

I have never seen the NAHL kid play, but I'm sure he's a good player. The circumstances of him leaving Johnstown to come back and play high school are a bit head scratching. I hope he's doing ok. I wish him nothing but the best.

At the same time, it does get old when people downplay the talent of the SHAHA/Peters kid just because he doesn't play for PPE. Maybe the kid just actually has his own personal priorities and wants to play for a really good amateur team (currently #18 in the country) that is close to home, which allows him to also play high school games in front of his classmates, for one of the better high school programs in the state, and for one of the more successful highschool coaches in PA history. Those all seem like good choices to me.

Looks like he has 14 points in 6 games for Peters as a sophomore and 44 points in 28 games for a SHAHA team that is playing some good national level competition. He's doing just fine and he's going to have some options in the near future. Just because some kid played for PPE and spent some time in the NAHL doesn't automatically make them a higher "pedigree" player.

PPE is a great program, but I don't buy into this idea that in order to do anything meaningful in junior hockey you have to play for them. If a kid is good enough, he will be found. Every good junior program have scouts who stay up at night thinking of unique ways to find diamonds in the rough to give their team a competitive advantage. They make a living finding these kids. It's not PPE or bust in Western PA. Everyone has a different path.

Black Bear did offer to buy RMU a few years ago. The the managing partner of Black Bear (Murry Gunty) even tweeted about it.

I've heard rumors about Black Bear and Alpha, but I know zero about the ownership situation at Alpha.

2 hours ago, Puck01 said:

The NAHL kid from Johnstown will definitely improve the NA team, he should be one of the top players in AAA possibly the best. The Peters Sophomore has his Pedigree & then some just a couple years younger. As for adding one player even an NAHL player in AAA I doubt that RIP's much of anything but make the shots a bit closer next time they play Peters. Peters beat them 4-1 & out shot them by nearly a 2 to 1 margin. Peters won their last 5 games scoring 30 goals allowing 6 & beat CP, NA & CC which should all finish top 5 in AAA. Should make for an interesting 2nd half of the season. 

I don't know enough to compare the teams overall, but I agree with your assessment of the individual players. The Peters kid has at least the same "pedigree", but he is two years younger which makes a difference.

2 hours ago, bb2j3z said:

Thank you.  It was a fun project to do as I love sports branding but don't get to do it on the job. I'm also eyeing what all of the other clubs are doing for branding and social media. It's a fun ecosystem to work in.

As of right now, we have had no inroads from Black Bear to move AHF.  We are happy with the competition in PAHL.  I know that they are gathering rinks in the area to build their league.

We do have one team - 14u Girls that plays in their AGHF girls league.  Our 19u girls team does play in PAHL.  I think the challenge is fielding enough competitive girls teams in the area for PAHL.  They played independent last year now they are playing in AGHF. It was a choice by the team which we supported.

Interesting. Maybe BB isn't as heavy handed as I assumed. At least not yet.

Keep up the good work you're doing at South Pgh. Seems like an organization on the rise.

24 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Yes, Badgers have had pretty much the same branding since they played out of the old Airport Ice Arena across from Scally's.  I'm pretty sure that SHAHA, and Preds have begun to go with different jerseys for their "AAA" BY teams, but I'm not 100% sure of that.  

Lebo has different socks and red helmets for their AAA teams. Not sure how many of those teams are left after the Lebo 08 AAA moved to SHAHA this season.

23 hours ago, bb2j3z said:

SPHC runs entirely independent from BB.  We work with a contract with the rink manager who then answers to BB. 

https://www.southpittsburghhockey.org/about-us/

The decision to rebrand as South Pittsburgh Rebellion was entirely a board decision. It was done for two reasons, to use "South Pittsburgh" in the name and give us more visibility from outside organizations when they are looking for match ups...  then since we were doing that to also do "Rebellion" for the Whiskey Rebellion in Washington, PA... also it was a feeling that "Rink Rats" did not appeal to older kids as much.  I do have a lot of appreciation for the old Rink Rats name and logo.   We did have a vote sent to our memberships to have a few options and we settled on "Rebellion".  I helped out with the rebrand keeping existing color palette and new jerseys.  So far the response has been really good imho.

Very interesting. Glad to hear that BB has been hands off with you guys. Great job on the rebrand as well. Cool connection with the Whiskey Rebellion. I think a few other organizations could use a refresh as well and get away from the 90s looking logos, jersey's, etc.

What's the deal with the AHF? I've been in Printscape this past summer and this fall, and they have huge banners advertising AHF, right inside a rink whose primary customer is a PAHL organization (Rebellion). Does Black Bear want Rebellion to move teams to the AHF?

2 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Badgers are listed as a "Controlled Club"  whatever that means!  No one has cared to share that info!

It's interesting that the Badgers are a "controlled" club but Rebellion is not. For what it's worth it does seem like current Rebellion leadership does a really good job from what I've heard and is doing a good job building that organization. Maybe Black Bear was happy with their management and decided to just leave them be?

2 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Don't think you will ever get the Local AAA teams to play each other!  Too much to lose and not much to gain!  Maybe AHF could force them to play each other.  Isn't AHF mainly Tier II?

Yes, AHF is Tier II, but Black Bear owns and runs the "Tier 1 Hockey Federation" which is their Tier 1 league.

https://www.tier1hockeyfederation.com/organizations/

11 hours ago, forbin said:

I could see AHF and PAHL coexisting just fine.

This would be ideal but I'm skeptical. You don't have to look much further than the infighting that is happening out east with AHF and the the DVHL. Social media posts flying back and forth bashing each other, etc. It's a big time fight. Neither of those leagues are ok with a peaceful coexistence. AHF wants the DVHL to disappear and vice versa. AHF will win that fight obviously. The same fight that is moving west very shortly.

So do we still not know the answer about about Allegheny? There clearly is something different in the structure of that organization compared to Vipers and Rebellion for the Badgers to be listed as a Black Bear owned organization. 

Black Bear's AHF league just keeps announcing new teams that have joined their league. Today they announced four new clubs in NJ that joined AHF bringing in a total of 72 new AA/A/B teams.

They already have North, Central, and South divisions. Not really a matter of if they take over youth hockey in SWPA, but a matter of when, and whether it will be a good change or bad thing for hockey in the region. AHF does some interesting things like all star games, no fair play point, krach ratings, live stats, etc. But they are certainly not a non-profit like PAHL. They want to make some serious cash.

I think in in two seasons ('24/'25 season) there will be more AHF teams in SWPA than PAHL teams.

1 minute ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wasn't Delmont the first rink they bought in Western Pa?

I believe Southpointe was the first rink they purchased in the area, and then changed the name after selling the naming rights to Printscape.

Wow, that is something new. Anyone on the board with the Badgers know what this is about?

It's interesting they list the Badgers and the Youth Phantoms, but not the Rebellion or Vipers. All four play in Black Bear rinks.

I get the sense that they're paying attention at all the big CCM tournaments like Detroit, Chicago, Notre Dame, Boston, etc. If your team isn't playing the in the "AAA Elite" division and is playing in the "AAA" or "AAA/AA" in those tournaments, no one is paying attention and an invite is unlikely. 

47 minutes ago, Puck01 said:

In AAA nobody will touch Peters. They have at least 10 AAA players more than 1/2 are high level AAA. They are murdering teams. The only way they lose going forward is if they miss a Thursday/Friday game for AAA weekend games. They play NA tonight which are temporarily in 1st in the division & PT will destroy them. 

I think it could actually be interesting with Peters Township. They lost basically all of their defenseman from last year from what I've been told. Maybe still some questions in goal. But it is nice to see some of the better players in the region playing high school hockey. Some of these games are really entertaining with good crowds and riled up student sections. It's great.

22 minutes ago, rock said:

Thanks I will look into those first. Appreciate the detailed response. 

Once you do move to the on ice part, I think it's more effective to go crazy at first with the amount of instruction. I would find a week in the late spring or summer when your kid can get on the ice for 30-45 minutes/day for a week straight individually with the same instructor. Working at it intensely day after day for a week can break some old habits and develop new ones. It's extremely difficult to change a stride significantly with just a once per week lesson. They'll make progress during the lesson, but then they'll go back to their team practice and fall into old habits and tendencies. Then the next week at the skating lesson they'll spend the first part breaking the same habits they worked on the previous session.

15 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Great response, Wish I would have known that 5 years ago.  How old do you think is to old to have that evaluation done?

Hard to know because I'm not trained in this, but I would think that even at the 10U age level it would be helpful for a kid to start developing correct movement patterns with various bodyweight exercises, med ball tosses, and mobility work. Once the voice starts to change, time to start (smartly) adding weight. But a lot of this will depend on the kid. Parents can go crazy and easily overdo it with their kids, but other kids can't get enough of this off ice stuff.

I would start off the ice first and see if his stride is limited by a hip or some other mobility issue that doesn't allow him to get deep enough in his stride. If he can't stand on dry land with feet straight forward (not angled out to the side, perfectly straight forward) at shoulder width apart and basically squat down with feet flat on the floor (heels in contact with the ground) and his butt basically on the back of his shoes, no amount of on ice work is going to get him a good stride. In addition to hip mobility issues, this can also help identify issues with ankle stability and mobility. He could also have some knee valgus or over pronation of the feet. I would try to get an assessment by one of the trainers at UPMC in Cranberry or by Michael Durkin in Moon. You can find him by googling Durkin Sports Performance.

The off ice assessment work will for sure find some issues or areas of improvement. Then once you have a plan to address those issues, I would then find the skating instructor. As long as there are no physical limitations a skating instructor can help with posture, full extension, leg recovery, etc. I think the on ice part will be easier/quicker than addressing the root cause of the issues off the ice.