zam

20 minutes ago, No Politics said:

I don't know much about this, and really don't care to.  What I will tell you is that I know some kids on those lists who were made to look stupid against some A Major and AA kids when they played against each other at Varsity/JV/Middle School this past season.

I saw the shaming occur live with my own eyes, so that makes me question the whole process/purpose.

So in a non-checking middle school game you saw a A/AA player perform better than a AAA player?  And from that experience you decided that AAA player wasn't worthy of attending Mid Am camp?

4 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

This^^^^^

PPE coaches have been included in the evaluation process and lo and behold, many gold buckets always seem to advance ahead of those that were more deserving.  I think MidAms are a sham and a complete waste.

Saying the whole process is a sham and a total waste of time sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.  I'm sure if they invited 160 players, that potentially the 125th best kid didn't get an invite and the 180th best kid did. And of the final selected 68 kids the 60th best kid got left off and the 80th best kid got selected instead.  There is always going to be some errors, biases, and differing of option.  

But what really matters is that the top 20 or 30 kids made it.  And quite honestly for USA hockeys purposes, they probably only care about the top 10. 

So are you saying that looking at that list there are top 10 or 20 MidAm kids that didn't make the camp? (Unless they chose not to try out)

And does it really matter who is evaluating? I'd imagine every Tom, Dick, and Harry could pick out the top 20 kids from 160. 

58 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

HAHA, especially if it gave them an automatic spot on the 66ers. Their elite mites!  But then they would have to tryout for Pens Elite Learn to Skate.

I heard from a reliable source that only children born in a UPMC hospital will be considered for the Pens Elite Learn to Skate Academy.

1 hour ago, No Politics said:

It would be exciting IF those Tier 2 teams are really Tier 2 teams.  Based off of what I saw, I seriously doubt that.  I personally know some kids who I would honestly assess as A Minor Black or maybe A Major White players who made "AA" teams.

I think in five years there won't be anymore A-level hockey.  Kids will go straight from B to AA so parents can (pay to) gloat about how wonderful their kid is, and teams will be glad to take their money to apply that label.  I used to LOVE it when my A Major kids would go to a summer pick-up game, and other parents would rave about their AAA/AA player and how great their team would be.  Then my "inferior" kids would go out there and make them look stupid.  AND... once the season started, my kids would be out there on regular shifts in all phases of the game, and their kids would sit on the bench.

Sorry if I sound salty.  This tryout season really has my head ready to explode from the sheer insanity.  As someone who loves the game of hockey, I just don't get it.

A lot of people on here like to bash the "extra A", "faux AAA" teams, and parents just wanting to call their kids AAA. And there is plenty of reason to criticize this phenomena.  But I think what MANY of these players and parents are really seeking is just a higher level of training and competition that these teams bring.   

What I think you get on a typical "A" team, and even some "AA" teams is an inexperienced coach, a couple shared ice practices, no dryland or video and a couple moderately competitive local games a week. The roster is likely to have a few kids that truly want to put in the work to get better, a few kids that are happy with their current level of play, and a few kids that would be just as happy skipping practices to play basketball or video games. So you aren't getting that same competitiveness of 18 AAA players all pushing each other because they all think they are on a path to The Show. 

So if you're one of those kids/parents that wants something "more" then you're going to be attracted to these mediocre AAA teams.  And if you're a kid that played a couple years of top level hockey and then was cut, it's probably difficult to get excited to play and train with Mikey's Dad who just started coaching hockey.  

I think if you had a few local organizations that practiced and trained like AAA programs but didn't fly to Chicago to get their butts kicked every weekend there wouldn't be problems filling rosters.

6 hours ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

So when all these AAA kids move in and displace good players who are loyal to their organization, is it really the right thing to do and load up with all these outsiders when the odds favor the one and done scenario where next year’s AAA opportunity will be their next destination??  In the process you’ve lost a nucleus of your team but you potentially have lost the talent LOYAL to your organization.  Thus losing the ability to field a given birth year.

is blowing your load to be all in on the obsession of going to nationals worth it for your organization if it means losing the long term viability to ice a competitive team of LOYAL players that can have a shot year in and year out?  I think some organizations are potentially playing with fire.    
 

 

Very very few players/families are loyal to a particular organization long term.  Players and organizations look out for their own interests. The best kids are generally always going to leave for better opportunities (and you can't blame them).  And the weakest kids get cut. (unless there's some nepotism or cronyism) This is true for House League all the way through Juniors and Professional.  The players thatv do stay within an organization long term are typically there because their are happy with their placement and don't have better opportunities. Or because of some other self interest, like it's close to their house, they aren't willing to increase the time and financial commitment to the sport and so on. 
 

Seems like a real straight shooter

3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

It's been talked about a lot this past year on this forum, but Esmark is continuing to fade. They are inexplicably losing out to SHAHA and Preds. That should never be the case. Black Bear can't be happy about this.

This time next year we are going to see a new Tier 1 program in Pittsburgh owned and controlled by Black Bear. Just like all the other obvious moves by Black Bear that people on this forum have been predicting for the past year (that have all come true), Black Bear starting a Tier 1 program is just too obvious. They are leaving too much money on the table without it. The second sheet at Printscape is setting the stage for this.

Good or bad, I don't know. But I don't see any way that this won't happen.

The planets aligned for SHAHA,  they had a half dozen really good 06s and had success playing together for several years. SHAHA tried to parlay that into an entire AAA organization. Now those kids are gone. And now they are not even having a 16 or 18u team.  I'm sure their 14 and 15 teams will have alright seasons but will still only be vying for a participation trophy at the midam championships.

The Preds, as far as I know, have never won anything at tier 1 or tier 2 at any age except maybe a couple nutcracker championships. They would love to get their hands on a Mid am participation trophy! Their 15,16, and 18U "AAA" teams were each in the LAST place of MidAm tier 1 teams.

Esmark will be good at 16 and 18U. That's always been their niche.  I think the rumors of Esmark's death at the hands of Shaha and Preds has been greatly exaggerated. We can reconvene in March and find out.

24 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Not the first time they did this.   They folded a 15U team of 06's a few years back after tryouts.  I'd sure like to hear their rationale for folding a team.  

Aren't they supposed to be the good coaches who can coach kids up? Or maybe they couldn't get enough European players to backfill the roster!  I guess they have an image to maintain.

I know at times it seems like every player in the area wants to play AAA hockey. But you have about 6 programs attempting to field 09AAA teams around here so eventually you run out willing participants. (Kids, Suckers, parents with money etc)

So what is esmark supposed to do? Just keep holding tryouts until they fill the team with whoever shows up? Then you end up with a team with 3 AAA players, 3 AA players, 5 A players, and 4 deck hockey kids that are just learning to skate. Scotty Bowman and Badger Bob couldn't "coach up" a team like that!

From the talk on this board most 09s in the area ran back and forth to 2 or 3 different tryouts. They all had supplemental tryouts. If you didn't end up on a team by the time the carousel stopped then you probably shouldn't blame the organizations, seems more like a "you problem"

If you're a parent that loves standing around in the lobby for an hour waiting for your kid to come out of the locker room then you're going to LOVE the basketball court and ping pong table! 

9 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Do you think they take all the out of the area kids partly to create the perception that their org is so amazing, people come from miles around to join it? 

The "perception the organization is amazing" comes from MOST of their teams being MOSTLY in the top 10, and MOSTLY within striking distance for a national championship every year.  They are one of about a dozen organizations like that in the nation. They play in highly selective tournaments and in a league with similarly successful organizations.  

Because of that, out of town kids that want to play at the highest level and be seen by scouts travel to play for PPE.  So of course little Johnny Ringer from Sacramento comes here and steals a spot from a decent player from Pittsburgh. On the contrary, nobody is coming very far to play for Preds, SHAHA, Vengeance etc. So inevitably the best players from those teams move on to better teams as well. It's the competitive food chain, eat or be eaten. The pens could make a team of the 20 best Pittsburgh area kids each year, and they would be moderately successful. (Probably something like the Cleveland Barons) But the top players would always be leaving.

We don't have to like how they do things, but that's the way Pens choose to run their organization.  This is what makes PIHL somewhat interesting and why everyone made a big deal about the billeting rules. School teams can't just cut and recruit new players each year. And players can't jump from team to team every year. There's atleast some competitive balance and reliance on development and building a program.

2 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I guess we'll see after this week. They'll lose a few players but enough are staying and they are so deep that I still think they'll be better than Preds and SHAHA by a fairly large margin. They should pickup some AA kids that legitimately should've been playing AAA for the past few years. I don't think they are going to fall 40 or so spots in the rankings and be where Esmark, Preds, and SHAHA were last year. Just don't see that happening.

I think the saying is  "if you aren't getting better you're getting worse", or maybe its "if you ain't first you're last"? Lol

You can have a deep 09 team and replace a few people, but if you aren't picking up top line guys or a stud Goalie the team is likely going to take a step back.  I don't know any 09 players so I'm not familiar with the personnel, so I'm just speaking in generalities here.  But what I do know is there are going to be a dozen new teams that are going to pop up in the top 50 that didn't field teams below 14U, Shattuck and MN teams, North Dakota, Selects, Mount to name a few   And you can count on some Detroit teams consolidating players too. So dropping 40 spots isn't unlikely.

And let's be honest, most top youth teams are only as good as their top 5 or 6 players. The other players are interchangeable, they are just along for the ride. So a few AA players moving to AAA and vice versa isn't changing much.   Nobody ever won a national championship because they replaced their 9th forward. It's the same whether we are talking PIHL PAHL or AAA. 

It's interesting how there doesn't seem to be a hierarchy of organizations in this area anymore. You basically just have Pens followed by a number of vultures picking at the scraps. Esmark used to have second place locked down but judging by the lateral movement from one "AAA" team to another everybody is just unhappy. Must be the grass is greener theory. Shaha going to Vengeance, Vengeance going to Esmark, Esmark going to Preds, Preds going to Vengeance. Hornets going to Shaha. I assume Icemen are in this mix somewhere also, unless going there is the point of no return. 

You never seem to hear of kids from these teams going to PPE. Players just move around amongst these other 4 or 5 teams getting a taste of the flavor of the month. The kids that do emerge and are able to compete at a true AAA level have to go play for someone like the Barons or (if these rumors are true) Long Island. 

Are there just too many options, and none of them good?

I think if one of these 5 organizations is able to have sustained success at multiple birth years and advance some kids to higher levels it would separate itself from the rest. Until then I guess the merry go round will continue.

52 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

You may be obligated to pay the commitment fee (up to organization 1 if they want to hold you to it) but you can have your kid removed from the roster and rostered on organization 2 no problem.  I would he up front and honest with both organizations.  

You could ask organization 1 if they had any players decline placement and see if they would reconsider your kid for a spot.  

Agreed it might help by being honest with both organizations. But if your kids are young, as it sounds like they are, you are pretty much burning a bridge with that organization if you pull your kid after committing to them.  You might find it hard to make a team there again in future years.

They seem to only keep the 08 players there. 06s and 07s all went to Esmark a few years ago and they had to fold one of those teams. 

Why would they fold before even having tryouts? And why just that birth year?

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

Does anyone here really believe paying for the PPE PR machine and money game for their 9-10 year old squirt actually thinks "if my 9 year old kid gets into their system he has a great shot to make all of their future teams?"  Even after countless comments from those on this forum countering this?

Or is it about the dad being able to tell all of his friends that his kid plays for PPE while buying all of the hoodies and car stickers that let everyone know where his kid plays.  When checking comes into play everything changes for these kids.

It is pathetic and sad as there are so many solid youth ( yes, youth ) programs out there where you can get plenty of ice time and solid coaching at a fraction of the cost. 

The better kids are going to float to the top one way or another. How they get there varies. There is no way to know whether a kid that plays 66ers and Pens would develop any differently if he did Foxes and TKCLIFFBRADQUESTBERKY lessons twice a week. The best and the worst kids always come and go. The best PAHL kids move on to AAA or AAAish teams. The best AAA kids move on to Juniors. The worst kids quit hockey or just play in house, high school, summer league, etc.

You can skate around tires at UPMC just as well as at Ice Castle.  The thing that MIGHT be different at a true AAA team is the commitment level and discipline.  The kids at AAA teams are working out at the gym at an early age, pushing each other for ice time, not skipping practices, acting professionally and being held accountable (getting cut if you're a jagoff)

There are PAHL coaches that run exceptional practices, but all 18 players don't necessarily have the same level of commitment to the sport and their team.
 

1 minute ago, aaaahockey said:

Most of this is true but one caveat - many if not most of the larger orgs are doing birthyear teams and most of the birthyear teams play single A (usually black) their minor year.  So you could be the best in a birthyear in an organization playing A Major Black if you are the minor year.  Also you always have the outlier teams that say they can't field AA teams and go undefeated in A Major Gold ?

Oops LOL. I guess I'm still in the hockey ancient times of 2 year birth years at PAHL. I just assumed the best kids still played AA. So I suppose if your player was the strongest on his Minor Birth year team, and was dominant in his division, then he could stand a chance at making a AAA team.

8 hours ago, PghHockey21 said:

He has played for 3 years and is a 2013. He played last year at the A Major Black level and seemed to gain a good understanding of full ice. I agree that it is hard to understand where he stands in comparison with the tryouts being closed. Just seems like they mostly take kids from 66ers for the 9u team and then continue to mostly keep the same kids. Not saying those kids aren't deserving just wondering how likely it is for someone new to unseat them.

They take the strongest kids that try out each and every year. Yes there could be SOME exceptions and favoritism. They generally keep the best and cut the worst. There will be players that are the best when they are are 9, but by the time they are 12 they are average. And there are other kids that don't become the best until 14.  You want your kid to be the one that keeps getting better and then knocks off a Mite Superstar. All it takes to be a Mite Superstar is being slightly faster than everyone else and having a good Celly. 

Also, and I haven't seen your kid play, and I don't mean to sound harsh. But, the reality is, your child is playing A. So if your organization has a AA team there are probably at least 10 kids in the birth year better than yours there.  Multiply that by 10 other PAHL organizations, and there could be 100 PAHL players alone better than yours. I think if you watch a season of AA PAHL and your kid is one of the top 5 players at that level, then he stands a chance of making AAA pens. If he's not then maybe the next stepping stone is one of the many other "AAA" teams. 

Congratulations on the championship win.  If they can keep the legal team together there is no reason they shouldn't repeat next year. 

5 minutes ago, pickle said:

Schedules are coming out tomorrow at 12:00 PM - so all teams would know by now.

Do any of the networks run a bracket unveiling show? Have the bracketologists released their final predictions yet?

I'd imagine if they own multiple rinks in a region and ice utilization drops they will consolidate all the teams and programs into other rinks and shut one down.  They won't sell it to someone else to compete with them as an ice rink. It will become a Christian church or a YMCA like the last couple rinks in the area that couldn't find a buyer.

AAU is the work around for fielding full ice mite teams.  The programs that compete as sanctioned USA Hockey teams aren't going to compete full ice. They will spin off a separate program that roster AAU.  And they will claim no affiliation.  They are the Pittsburgh Icemen when they compete at USA hockey events, and they have a separate Pittsburgh Snowmen jersey for when they compete Full ice mite.  (Before you all go look for Tryout dates for the Snowmen, it's not a real thing, just an example) lol

I only have the slightest bit of knowledge about the Black Bear group. So I'm genuinely looking for some insight from somebody that knows something about them. Yes I read thru the other thread about them buying up the rinks, forming these leauges and tournaments, seemingly getting involved in every aspect of youth Hockey.  This business model seems like it could make perfect sense, they take what are essentially ma and pa local ice rinks that are often struggling, and take advantage of economic efficiencies of running a larger all encompassing business.  And hopefully that is the case.  

But you only have to look back a few years to Legacy global sports. They were buying up all the tournament companies and seemingly consolidating all the youth sports. Scouting kids, building selects teams, running camps, tourneys and everything else.  Then suddenly without much notice Legacy was in bankruptcy.  Teams and parents were left without tournaments and team and tournament fees were long gone.  The South Kent select boys fled across the border and set up shop at Bishop Kearney.

I don't know if you can draw any similarities here, but both were cases with private equity money suddenly poured into the industry. And I'd have to think there should be some concern of things ending badly.  Anybody care to tell me I'm crazy to think this?

Do people really think that Bishop mccort self reported their own mistake mid playoffs? Or does it make more sense that their first or second round opponent started thinking back to regular season games where a player was listed on the score sheet but didn't play against them, then pulled up a couple more videos of other games and started to recognize a pattern. It wouldn't be that difficult. You have to assume it wasn't a bad player, because why bother. So look at the good players, see which games they don't have any stats, and find the video. Maybe they just had a bad game, or maybe they weren't there.

Maybe for extra credit see if there is a similar pattern in past years. 

13 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

Maybe it’s an unreasonable expectation that an organization who his paid by its participants and member organizations to facilitate a league actually provides that service and enforces its rules and bylaws, oh maybe before the fact, not after. Had this not somehow been caught, it never would’ve been known.
 

The second and third order plus effects of this goes beyond a forfeit of a single game. 

Referees also get paid and often times they don't enforce the rules.  They also from time to time award a goal or assist to the wrong player. So just because PIHL officials get paid something are we to expect perfection.  Have you ever made a mistake at your job?

I mean you have a few minute warm up period with 35 players jumping on and off the ice at different times. Players arriving late to the game after the drop off the puck.  Some players that rarely see the ice.  You could see how a score keeper might miss somebody and just trust the coach that the line up is accurate....

The lucky thing is it appears he was a legitimate regular season player. So those regular season games count (unlike Montour) so the only difference is their playoff game counts as a loss not a win. And the other team advances.

If the coaches aren't trustworthy then maybe the players need to go to the scorekeeper and sign in or get fingerprinted before each game. Have them present report cards and birth certificate.

While they are at it the scorekeeper can quiz the kids too. 

When did you move here?

Do you live in your teammates basement?