Lifelongbender

8 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

So what the judge is saying is that Montour once again did not file all the proper paperwork even for court. ✔️ Maybe Smith and Butz the high powered attorney's should stick to what they actually practice. 

This is absolutely not what the judge said. What the judge actually said was that he found Montour's arguments compelling, and that the ambiguity in the rules is also troubling to him. However, he noted that in order to issue an injunction there would have to evidence that irreparable harm would come to Montour, and that Pennsylvania case law has found that a loss of opportunity to play in a potential playoff season does not constitute irreparable harm. Because Montour was unable to show that irreparable harm would result from the situation due to the case law, the judge could not issue the requested injunction.

Note though the first part - the judge did say that he found Montour's arguments for why they believed the player was eligible to play credible. Paragraph 1 says (in part) "the innocent and highly successful Montour Hockey Team". That doesn't sound like the comment of a man who thinks Montour would fail in court on the facts. He also notes that he wasn't commenting on the other prerequisites for issuing an injunction because case law is clear on the question of irreparable harm in this situation and further analysis is not required (this is common in these cases - because you have to show irreparable harm to get an injunction, judges often use that as the first test and stop their review if irreparable harm cannot be demonstrated). I'm thinking the judge here believes that Montour would win this issue in court, but he cannot order an injunction.

My take is that PIHL needs to overhaul their rules regarding transfer students completely, and also needs to take a lesson on due diligence here. PIHL should be able to rely on organizations to fill their paperwork out completely and correctly, but the issues with ambiguity in the letter of the rules are undeniable, even if it is reasonably clear what the intent of the rules is. As I said before, it's not hard to imagine this happening with everyone acting in good faith, and misunderstanding the rules. It's clear, at least now, what PIHL intended when they wrote that rule, but the rule itself is fuzzy as written.

1 hour ago, Stackthepads said:

Here’s a thought:  Perhaps the manager volunteered late to the game because there was nobody else willing to do it.  Perhaps the manger has a real job or some circumstance that prevented them from attending the “training”.  Perhaps they didn’t want to miss the new episode of Law and Order.  Perhaps they thought to themselves “it’s only high school hockey”.  I don’t freakin know.  All I know is that people are quick to blame others for everything and thinking everyone has a hidden agenda.  That’s why we have a shortage of VOLUNTEERS at all levels.  Who wants to put up with this?  We get it- you are all perfect people, never making mistakes, documenting everything, and always quick to place the blame.  

I used to volunteer at my local organization in a few roles myself. I know it's challenging to know all the rules but as an officer of the organization it's what you signed up for. You will note, if you actually read what I wrote, that I didn't attack any member of Montour's organization. My point was merely to explain that this issue itself is, in fact, covered explicitly in the training that the managers are required by PIHL to attend. Failing to attend the training doesn't mean you don't have to comply with the rules you'd have been trained on had you attended.

It's my opinion that there are a few ways this could've happened with everyone acting on good faith, actually. For instance, although I think that the argument that the player isn't a transfer because they were never in high school before is contrary to both the intent and the letter of the rule as written, it isn't hard for me to imagine a group of people convincing themselves of that interpretation quite honestly just by having someone propose it and doing so convincingly. But that doesn't change the rules, or the responsibilities of the organization, or the right and proper consequences for failure to comply with the rules. It's unfortunate that this happened, no matter why it happened.

You can continue to accuse people who are trying to have an honest conversation all you want - that's certainly increasingly the only point of every post ever made to this discussion forum, sadly. I understand that there are people - kids, really, and sadly so -  being significantly hurt here. But making a mistake - if that's what happened here - may be an explanation, but it's not an excuse. You still have to get your job right or face the consequences.

7 minutes ago, Loach said:

Just chiming in to say I feel bad for the Montour seniors. But I skimmed through that court filing and don’t see how they win. All they have is an email reply from the prez who says he has someone for them to talk to? I’m no lawyer but that doesn’t seem enough to count this as an exception to the rule.

Let me say first of all that in my view Montour shouldn't win. However long the kid has been playing, there is a clear violation of league rules here, and Montour's manager would've attended the training where this is covered quite extensively.

Having said that, much depends upon how the court eventually views the question of whether the player is a transfer or not. It seems clear that the spirit of the league rules is that this player should be considered a transfer, but the rules aren't as clearly written as you'd like them to be, and now a court will be deciding whether the (in my view) silly argument that he was never in high school so this isn't a transfer is a good argument or not. And then going forward the rules will mean whatever the judge ends up saying they mean on this issue. If the court buys that argument, Montour will win because the entire premise of determining that the player was ineligible will be null.

16 hours ago, Flavio said:

These attorneys are very reputable. They aren’t taking this unless they have strong evidence against. Case could be expedited depending on other verbiage. This is going to get interesting for sure. 

Just my $0.02, but they may very well be filing a lawsuit simply to try to intimidate PIHL into changing their stance. They may not, in fact, believe that they have much of a case at all, but merely hope that the threat will make PIHL flinch. That's a very common strategy in many common situations, and it's even done by reputable attorneys. One reason to think this might be true is the simple fact that's been mentioned elsewhere here - they're not likely to get a hearing before the issue is already in the past.

Also, Montour almost has to be getting this representation pro bono. It can't be worth the cost for representation in an actual lawsuit.

31 minutes ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Three - U19 Steel City Select girls

But they never give the girls any credit or publicity if they aren't PPE.

100%. Pittsburgh has some very good girls teams, but you'd never know unless you were in a position to know.

32 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

Saucey, are you surprised?  The standard is the standard...

Yeah, you must be a Steelers mom!

26 minutes ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

Each year associations that are going to lose their ice put in requests for PAHL to provide approval for early tryouts.

And each year those requests are approved.

On 2/10/2023 at 8:36 AM, Flavio said:

I laid the facts out there and then it got personal and I’m all of the sudden trolling. Outside of the logistics that no one can dispute- which alienate everyone east of the city… the dream destination here is a rink that’s currently converted one of their two rinks to a soccer field. 
 

Call it trolling. Get mad. Cry together. Whatever you want to do. What you won’t be doing is participating in a tier 1 program at printscape. Whether that’s a new venture or Esmark splitting ice there. It’s not happening. 
 

And that’s the BOTTOM LINE. 
 

- Flavi 

Sorry man. Bottom line is that Esmark just announced they were splitting ice at Printscape next season.

3 hours ago, Lucky17 said:

The person I talked to said construction starting in April.  He is a Rebellion coach.

I heard the same thing from a coach down there.

4 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I wonder if this will pull AAA SHAHA and Preds kids? They'll probably have to be much more specific about how the split will work.

I thought it was established by wisdom on this board that nobody will want to go to Printscape, so it certainly will not pull SHAHA and Preds players! ?

This question is part of what we were all speculating about in that other thread. I'd guess that as long as Taibi is at SHAHA his players will stay with him. But it will be interesting to see what effect this has on the other teams in the area.

14 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

You do know that Southpointe never had a second sheet of Ice?  It was always a multisurface. It never had icemaking potential. Was built in the late 90's as a Practice facility for the Pens.  Thats why it would take a lot to put in that second sheet.  It does seem like the multiuse rink is always in use when I have been there.

This is actually entirely correct. And I think @Flavio must've missed the repeated discussions about the field being converted to a second sheet of ice as soon as next season, too.

As far as I can tell, nobody has called Printscape their "dream destination". This is - or should have been - just a discussion about the possibilities. If an elite program can exist at the ridiculously located PIA, one can certainly exist at Printscape. If the core of this argument is about whether PIA or Printscape is more ideally located to attract talent, the answer is that neither is ideally located,  but at least you don't have to take 28 to get to Printscape. 

Just for the record, too, at least one elite team already exists in the South Hills, at an even less-accessible rink. Paul Taibi's 16UAAA team is among the best in the country, as has been pointed out by others many times elsewhere on this board. I don't know anyone on that team, but a simple review of MHR makes it clear. Geography certainly didn't stop that from happening. In the end we all know that players will drive to wherever their needs are met, at least in our market.

Well, it seems to me clear that there are really two concentrations of hockey players in the city - in the South Hills between Canonsburg and TJ, and in the north hills between Cranberry and Harmarville. Clearly there are players all over the city, but in general people are traveling to these areas to play, especially at the highest level. Since we all agree that PIA is in a less advantageous area, and since PIA, Alpha, and Lemieux, are both a ways north of the city, it certainly appears that establishing a Tier 1 or higher Tier 2 presence south of the city would attract some players who are currently driving north a nontrivial distance to practice and play.

A similar logic was used by the folks who established the Rebellion Independent 14U Girls Team - they realized that there are players in the South Hills that would try out for an independent national-bound team that was located in the South Hills if one existed. Nobody would argue that they are equivalent to the Pens Elite or Steel City Selects - and in general girls who make one of those two programs during tryouts go to those programs instead of Rebellion - but one does have to wonder what might happen if the Rebellion continues to enjoy success, and if the Rebellion organization is able to successfully support them despite BB buying their rink. I imagine that BB might try to establish their own national bound teams there eventually, or try to take over the Rebellion - rumors on this board certainly suggest that doing so is in BB's SOP. You can imagine that Esmark practicing there at least occasionally, or establishing teams there full-time, even, might be a step in that direction for BB.

The argument about whether the North Hills or the South Hills has the most good players is silly. In the South Hills you've got Peter's Township, Bethel Park, USC, TJ, etc., while in the north you have North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Seneca Valley, etc. Both areas are rich with good players. Nobody wants to drive across town in either direction for practices and games several times a week, but at our current moment it's mostly people driving north from the South Hills. Driving south is just as awful as driving north, it's just less common since the Tier 1 organizations are currently all north of the city. 

3 hours ago, bb2j3z said:

News to me...  What's your source?   Seems they would have a lot of extra ice to rent with the Vipers booted from the location.

I have this on very good authority from several sources as well. As a matter of fact, it's almost common knowledge in some circles nowadays. If there isn't a second sheet there before next season I'll be surprised.

23 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Boy I really hope you are joking and I missed the sarcasm.  Black Bear seems to try to monopolize the market, raise prices and control everything so they can control prices as well and make even more of a profit.  Everyone gets on PPE for trying to make as much money as possible but Black Bear is no different.  BB immediately raised ice costs, wants teama in their league which they profit from,.....

Not to mention the rumors of them freezing out local skills instructors at their rinks as soon as they took over.

Folks, while the ad nauseum discussion about the flaws of various organizations might be especially interesting on this topic in particular, I'm thinking that the OP intended this thread to serve as a reference of when everyone is scheduling tryouts. Perhaps another thread about tryout shenanigans would be more appropriate for those discussions. There are probably many, many people who would appreciate a quick reference for tryout dates.

Just my $0.02.

46 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Too be honest, maybe having BB employees in charge will clean up that garbage organization and the homer refs will be reigned in. 

And once again it's proven that we can't have any kind of civilized discussion on this board for more than three posts.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over time if it is true that Black Bear controls the board for Allegheny as described above. As a misunderstood genius once said, "the times, they are a-becomin' quite different". These next few years should prove to be fascinating for hockey players in SWPA.

11 minutes ago, Wes said:

Good question.  In all my years as a team manager I've never heard of a Team PA.

Me either, though there is a Team Ohio.

15 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

When hockey became to expensive for the average person to play and it became a rich kids game only. When sticks went from $20-$40 a piece in the 90's to $300-$400 nowadays.

Hockey has ALWAYS been too expensive for many to play. This isn't a new situation. 

Sadly the fact is that every sport is expensive now, and about the money. Even baseball is expensive nowadays if you want to do it "right". There are schools and clinics and tutors and skill instructors and hyped-up overpriced equipment in every sport. We have reached the point where, instead of the obvious good policy to play many sports and have fun, many - if not most - parents think that if their kid takes the summer off from hockey to play baseball, their kid will fall behind the others who are taking clinics and going to camps and paying private instructors. This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this board.

There is plenty of fault to go around, including the parents who think they can somehow buy excellence for their players, to the instructors and schools who stir up that hype, to the organizations who encourage players to play year round or they'll lose their edge. USA Hockey officially encourages players to play many sports, but how many times do they actually encourage it out loud? The same goes with every coach I know - they'll tell you that your kid should play many sports to ensure well-rounded development, but then they schedule drylands and skates and try to get their kids to go to schools.

The truth is that to some extent the idea that sports of any kind used to be about the kids was NEVER true, and on the other hand every sport has become saturated with money and people who will gladly take that money for dubious results.

20 hours ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Just out of curiosity - where have people been saying the CHL (Canadian Major Junior) is being passed by the USHL?? I'm not arguing the point, just haven't heard this before.

I was curious about the same thing.

2 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

I'm not aware of a bad league.  I guess I would caution on RMU 3v3.  This can be fun for your kids but it's not exactly hockey as we know it. 

100% correct. My kids love the RMU 3v3 summer league, but usually also play in a 5v5 league. 3v3 is really fun for the kids to play but it ain't hockey any more than half court 1v1 is basketball.

2 minutes ago, Wes said:

Additionally the rink is very humid at times... poor HVAC implementation.

 

 

It sometimes seems like the dehumidifiers are turned completely off. The HVAC in that building is completely unacceptable. Honestly, I thought before BB bought it that the HVAC alone was enough to mess up the deal.

20 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Now for the important question, have they improved the bar? 

They have not. At least not yet.

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

I'm guessing they want to get the first sheet rented out to capacity with a higher ice price before they go to the second.  They haven't even put the second one back in at Printscape yet let alone building a new one at Rostraver. 

And, let's face it, they'd probably have to build a new building to put in a second sheet there.

2 hours ago, Wes said:

Wifi installed but still not for public access.  Livebarn signage on premises but wasn't installed as of ~2 weeks ago.

Didn't know they got a new zamboni, and I will have to look at the lights next time I'm there. 

there were also a bunch of younger guys there cleaning and maintaining the public areas, which is another new thing...

 

At Rostraver I have noticed that they cleaned alot - the windows between the lobby and the rink are actually clear now. I was there a week or so ago and I'm pretty sure they were using the old Zamboni.

SHAHA has new jerseys now - it started last season. They updated their logo and have new jersey patterns and socks. There are probably some players still wearing the old stuff, though.