Saucey

How has Vengeance helped the situation pointed out by the Mid Am link?  If a parent really wants to progress their kid to high levels, the old advice seems to still remain true...get out of Pittsburgh. And Vengeance doesn't develop imo, they recruit from other programs' ADM programs and PPE leftovers.Who then leave when they get to midget to go to PPE or Esmark if they can. So critical of PPE's mites program when Vengeance doesn't even HAVE one. 

PPE is becoming a stopping point for out of town kids to move on in a year, it seems. It still serves a purpose, just not the one promised to local families. They seem to be making money and not inclined to change a thing. I agree it's not healthy for kids, what they are doing.

Get off the hamster wheel. Find the coach your kid likes who wants to develop all the kids, with a team of good families. Privates over the summer with other sports. Get good grades. Stop giving these clowns your money, unless everything that I said you happen to find at Vengeance that year, then go ahead if you can afford it.

The rah rah rah Vengeance as a viable option to PPE is just....not. ?

You know, as I read the unrelenting cheerleading posts for the Vengeance program and then occasionally from the people who crow about the success of that one SHAHA team.....here is the bottom line. No one program is 'the best'. The stuff about the Vengeance made me want to throw up a little in my mouth. Like any of these programs that spring up around here, they have sporadic success that doesn't seem to stick as the kids grow older. For every good team that they put together, there is a massive clunker. And they are more than happy to put a team together with kids who aren't AA and still slap that AAA label on. And...every single program does it. PPE as well has done it.

So what is a parent to do?

It is really hard, particularly if you do not know hockey. 

My family never bought into any of this crap. But with Blackbear moving in and everyone leaving PAHL to chase the rainbows, I have no idea what we would have done in this landscape. We could always manage to find a situation that worked for our kids.

So my advice...just try to find a good coach, good families, where your kid is having fun and getting better. That is going to differ for your kid. Then find a good match for privates. Make sure they are getting better. 

Emphasize school. Have them get good grades. You don't buy the Powerball thinking you are going to win. Your kid has the same chance at playing in the NHL or NCAA div I as they do at winning the Powerball. So look for a match with your child over 'the best' program, whatever that means, regardless of what label whatever program is sticking on it. After all, the 'best' program may have just been the one that did the sales pitch and recruiting the best that year.

Ok , I stand corrected, a handful of people still REALLY care about PPE. ?

Does anyone really care about the PPE anymore? Maybe after try outs.

On 1/19/2023 at 3:18 PM, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Agreed. High school shouldn't be playing on the weekends.

Disagree. Depending on the tournament, your player may actually be seen by a collage club coach. No one watches AA or lower level AAA. I wouldn't include Meadville in that category, however. 

1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

Im not really knocking those two schools, they have good programs but like every year - they won’t go anywhere at nationals. neither program has the players like a adrain, Ohio U etc. 

 

the point of my original comment, once you get past the top programs in all the classes there is not much difference between the classes. 

I had a coach telle the difference is in time commitment. So like at RMU the lower in the leagues you go, less practices and games, and yeah, not much difference for skill.

16 hours ago, ice is cold said:

 

It is the parents who ultimately decide where there kids play. And it is the parents who will decide if black bear thrives...

A monopolies means there are no more choices.You know, all that program jumping treasured around here.

Mid Am has never been known as a hockey hot bed.

Just now, Lucky17 said:

Take some JuCo classes instead of a freshman year and you might come out even

Some Junior Colleges even have hockey programs. Absolutely, I would have my child explore what they want to do in addition to the hockey through either classes or a part time job or both.

3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

 Although I would probably still let mine try to play Juniors if he really wants to try.  I've wasted far more money on far less endeavors.

I have zero issues with this, so long as you know. It is becoming pretty common to take a "gap"year or two before going to school. If you don't know what you want to study, have the money and maybe you need to see what life is like, go play more hockey, why not.

Once adults figured out that there was money to be made it was all over. It's every sport, happening for decades. 

https://changingthegameproject.com/the-professionalization-of-youth-sports/

Parents want their kid to play on the same teams as the other kids their kid started with. Their kids want that. So they jump onto the hamster wheel of lessons and summer hockey and AAA. It is hard not to give in to the peer pressure. 

Parents also think this is all leading to college scholarships, too. Most don't really think their kid is NHL material.Many have no idea that NCAA D1 is the only place this happens. I have a pretty good hockey player. People assume my kid is going to get a scholarship to play hockey and when I explain that we are likely going to continue to pay lots of money for him to play because like 90 percent of the hockey kids playing, he is not D1 material, and they are so shocked... because their kid is not playing at my kids level, so if my kid isn't getting anything, then guess who else isn't? People really do have some vague idea that this will lead to money for school.

Grades. Grades and high SAT scores may get you money for school. (School is test optional? Well, that SAT score, if good, may help get merit money.)

Also, most refs are independent contractors. By definition of that status, they are not responsible to anyone. Evaluations....holding them accountable.....as soon as you begin to exert control over that relationship, that is when you get employees. No one wants employees. Benefits, payroll deductions, paying their insurance coverage. 

Plus, you want them to make calls independent of an organization to keep them neutral.

But you could add components to how they get certified. A review of complaints filed, etc. 

5 minutes ago, whatever said:

I guess my perception comes from my experience as does yours. Who gets to define what is normal ?   My sons path and experiences have always been a family affair.  I’ll admit - junior hockey is a mind f&$@ and college hockey is the next level of mind f^*+. But , this kind of reward doesn’t come without hard work.  

I know there is a great deal of criticism out there because as the players keep getting weeded out - the second guessing and criticisms come in to play.  Eventually every single player - plays their last game - where the merry go round ends isn’t always their choice. 

I would argue against your comment on “professionals saying it’s not a great way to grow up” .I guess if you walk away with regrets - then that statement could fit . 

 

To be clear, I have no regrets. You keep implying that I am a butt hurt parent with a washed up kid. Why would that be the only source of criticsim of what is essentially a terrible system?

Since your perspective comes from having made it, I wonder....there is nothing in that experience that could not have been improved upon? Why does juniors have to be so brutal? To sell tickets, I hear. How much is even made on ticket sales? I did not think those teams made profits, for the most part.

if hockey is such a late development sport...why not make it so that juniors doesn't exist until age 18? Hersey, I know.

I am talking about studies done regarding the increased professionalism of youth sports, not just hockey, to train children as if they are mini adults. The push to specialize younger and younger. Not good for young bodies. Child psychologists. Doctors. Those sorts of professionals. 

It would be nice if talent could be developed without the huge asks, the gauntlet. Your boy ran the gauntlet, so you seem to see no issues. But you could probably suggest some improvement. Of the things you and your boy went through...what could you have done without?

I operate from the standpoint that it should be easier for more to play. To decrease cost. To make hockey more accessible. If you limit your talent pool only to those who have money and can run the gauntlet, who have access to the gauntlet, which is another conversation entirely, then you necessarily miss some athletes. That's not a good system when you talk about national teams, Olympics, etc. You aren't getting the best athletes. You are getting the best athletes in a limited pool.

39 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

You are correct, competition isn’t a bad thing. But the way the competition is being created rubs the wrong way. I’m not from the business sector, so this hostile like take over is all new to me. I’m a social worker, we operate on a different mentality. Lol. To me, stomping on anything in your way to get your desired outcome isn’t creating competition, it’s leveling the market and making it bend to your will. If Black Bear continues, PAHL will be non-existent in less than 5 years. 

Already in the works. I heard BB has been contacting PAHL organizations looking for teams to join their league.

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. Glad to hear of something positive for a change.  Although it seems that mostly unhappy parents frequent this site!

I am not unhappy! Neither are my children. Again, why does one have to be a CONSTANT cheerleader to make you happy?

Someone asked me for my opinion and I gave it. So tired of being told to shut up. Counter my opinion. Don't criticize me for giving it.

11 hours ago, whatever said:

Not a healthy environment?  Do you know this from experience or just a perception?  My family's experience - homeschooled, then cyber schooled, then off to prep school because of a scholarship that was offered - then juniors and now D1.  Deans list as well.  Both academic and athletic scholarship. Did the proms when schedules allowed, was never really interested in hanging out at football games - (that isn't every high schooled kids cup of tea), billet families have become family to us. Team members are like brothers and located in multiple states and countries - with relationships that continue even after teams are disbanded.  Ask my son if he has regrets?  Not a one.  He is happy, healthy and has direction.  

I understand that sometimes when your only experience is by observation you can have a limited view.  But I get so tired of coming here and seeing so many judgements about parents choices and kid's decisions. I promise this - if you ask my son today if he thinks he missed something because of...fill in the blanks with whatever you posted above - he will laugh it off! His experience was everything he wished for ever since he was a little boy watching the big kids on the ice. 

Glad it worked out for your son and I commend him and your family. But he is rare. 

I stand by what I said. I am not the only one, studies done by professionals indicated this is not a great way to grow up. That was years ago, there was legislation posed to prevent this kind of thing. So sorry you are tired of hearing that but yes, this is my opinion. I am sure if people wanted to, they could come up with a way to develop hockey players that isn't so freaking burdensome on kids and families. You play football, you can lead a normal life and go to the NHL or college. I think there is a great deal of criticism that can be leveled against the sport's path and a great deal of room for improvement. 

Soooooo refreshing to have people just talking hockey, respecting each other and the kids playing. Great discussion.

14 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Thanks for the info!  Does that really happen a lot?    10-15 players from Western Pa or more like 5?

I really have no idea but I know of a few. It wasn't something my family wanted. I believe children should be children before trying to make hockey as a career, but that doesn't mean that I don't understand why people who have children with the talent to do it will take the chance.

You don't get a second chance to go to prom, cut up with buddies in class, hang out at a football game...for parents to trust a billet to raise their kid..I kind of think the whole system to create NHL and Division I hockey players blows, quite frankly. It's not a healthy environment for kids and families. Add in how confusing the process is and the inordinate amount of people willing to take advantage of families, and it's not a good scene.

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, just curious what you mean about not caring about their high school education?  If it's a gap year?  I do value Danners opinions but does he always have to be so negative and put down people that don't agree with him.

Some people pull their kids to play juniors and cyber school them. If it's one of the leagues where you know they advance to the NHl, 'k I get it, but these others....

23 minutes ago, ice is cold said:

People who look down on PIHL most likely never played a school sport. Regardless of it being a club sport, wearing your school colors and playing on a team with other classmates is a different experience that no club team can give you. I honestly feel bad for kids who either can't play due to their amateur club or think it's below them. It is something they can't get back and in 10 or so years, they may look back and regret it. 

And agree. So much talent graduated last year. It is a statistical minded persons heaven breaking down the numbers. Ha!

I started following PIHl's FB account this year. Having the games broadcast and PIHL advertising them all is great. Don't get that kind of attention from travel teams.

12 hours ago, ice is cold said:

I may be wrong, but, the SV vs PT score was 4-3. And "the studs" played and combined for 6 points unless the PIHL site is incorrect. 

The Pine Richland score of 6-3 two nights ago... Were "the studs" not there? Pretty sure they were with 3 points.

PT's weakness is just that, team who relies on "the studs".  If they can be coached beyond that, they have a real solid team. 

I said SV has a nice squad, not denigrating them at all. I agree about PT. Since they do have an excellent coach, can't count them out. Not denigrating anyone, actually.

I haven't seen PR play recently but looks like they are improving for sure per recent scores. That's an impressive W against PT. PT also struggles with goaltending, so if teams are figuring out how to get shots on net and contain the studs, there you go. But you can't argue that PT's coach is excellent, so I would not count them out based only on recent losses. I think that team moves the puck really well.

This is an odd year, with all the talent that graduated last year and low birth years, any given team could figure things out. I think anything could still happen. Season is fun from that standpoint. Subsequent seasons, hopefully we see even better hockey from lots of teams, since there should be experience returning. People look down on PIHL, but I really enjoy it. Maybe because I know so many of the players on many of the teams at this point, so it's just fun for me.

From what I understand, PT's SHAHA studs weren't there in that game against SV, thus explaining the lop sided score. No denying SV has a nice squad this year. NA is struggling to put the pieces together, taking a stupid number of penalities, which is unusual for that program.

Not to take anything away from SV, but the fact that a squad so heavy with freshman is doing so well shows....just how depleted in talent PIHL is. This is what hockey looks like with two low number birth years playing at the same time. (2005 and 2007). Thank goodness for 2006.

Still half a season to go.

12 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

In the end, both make good points. Both viewpoints should probably be heard. 

 

There has been a very vocal contingent on this forum actively trying to shut Danner up. I could go for what happy hockey fan says. I could also go for less digs and personal attacks on people. Where is that getting us in society?

I don't care how you spend your money, either, so long as that money is being spent eyes wide open. If you've got 15,000 to spend on your kid's gap year to let him just play hockey, and understand that it isn't going to land them in the pros, or you don't care too much about their high school education, have at it.  But I do think it is wrong for a league to combine all their tiers and market their III tier to families as a viable option to get to the NHL. It's just wrong. Preying on children's dreams and a parent's desire to give their kid the best. Yuck yuck yuck.

I appreciate what Danner posts. People do get caught in these leagues thinking it is going to lead to something. A lot of those junior tes are incredibly shady. It's good someone explains it! Some people really appreciate the help! We should all be so lucky to have hockeyisgreat to be the constant cheerleader on this board!

12 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

100% correct. My kids love the RMU 3v3 summer league, but usually also play in a 5v5 league. 3v3 is really fun for the kids to play but it ain't hockey any more than half court 1v1 is basketball.

Spring and summer leagues and ball hockey have allowed my boys to choose who they way to play with. They get the opportunity to play with kids/friends at a different level. Pure fun. Don't buy anyone's hype that they are elite or going to develop your kid a lot.

We've done a number of camps over the years. Make sure they go with a friend.

The biggest bang for your buck are quality individual or small group private.lessons. Pick a camp that offers something specific he wants to work on.

They need a break, mental and physical. Do a different sport. At this age, let him start weight training and dry land. Cardio like biking if interval training will help with skating stamina.

My boys were generally only on the ice maybe once a week over the summer unless they were doing a league, then twice. A camp here and there. Mine are pretty good. The foot was off the gas over the summer for sure.