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It is a big loss for the hockey community in western PA. Prayers for his family.

I don't know enough about Black Bear to state an educated opinion on them, but I will say this: I was reading this chain and signed up for this message board today. I took the name "No Politics" for a reason. My child is a teen who knows tons of kids from many different programs (including the Vipers/Stars/Esmark), and politics like a president/VP/board member's kid and their friends getting special treatment, extra ice time, etc. kills these programs. Parents aren't as stupid or obnoxious as everyone makes them out to be. Contrary to popular belief, most parents I know don't want their kid to play AAA (or even AA). They just want their kid to play where they actually belong, and have fun without political crap like a team manager dictating tournaments that benefits THEIR family instead of the majority of the TEAM'S families, dads coaching just to give their less-talented kids more ice time, and boards who ignore it all because they are friends with those hacks. If a corporation like Black Bear solves these problem by looking at the bottom line ($$$) instead of playing favorites and creating an intra-organization (or even intra-team) "haves and have nots" culture that ruins the sport for the kids and their families, then I am in favor of it.

If they have partnered with Allegheny and left S. Pitt. alone, both of who are growing, perhaps BB saw the need to take over the NHAHA org due to the recent numbers decline? Protecting their interests.

Who is to say BB is a bad thing? Sure ive seen negative posts on social media, but not the point where it encompasses a large majority. Does anyone have any facts to show that areas where BB takes over is bad, outside of a handful of a unhappy folks? Most of what I see when I look on social media are the ppl that were taken over and pushed out complaining. The hockey team for my child played three teams (in tournaments) that were in AHF from eastern PA and the coaches/ parents i talked to raved at how much better it was, despite the exrta cost. Who is to say BB isnt better? Only bad thing I see is the extra cost as a downside, but most ppl would pay more for better quality. I mean, ive seen bad orgs run by parents in PAHL. There are plenty around west PA (not saying that about NHAHA - only mentioning them as they were refered to earlier, this is about all orgs), but with a tier 1, tier 2, the AHF league, a large capital of 40 businesses generating 1 bil revenue and 3.7 bil combined capital, not to mention they are hiring experienced hockey personal to run them - there is the possibility (depends on your level of optimism) that BB can do better. This post alone has thousands of views and only a few bad opinions. I hear claims but no real facts, other that what I found when I researched BB and Murry Gunty online. Look at the summaries of their corporate and operating team, seems to me they have lots of capital and buying power, they even push to keep costs down by using their large number of rinks to negotiate national deals in marketing (Labatts) and for cleaning (Cintas). PIA was a disgusting mess, at least it gets cleaned now. Lastly, they hire qualified people with experience. PPI worked a deal with UPMC to increase funding from non-profits to boost operating capital that helps with rink repairs. So they raise the ice costs, they have a right to, they own it and from what i see, they improve their facilities. At one point you couldnt even open the door to get out of PIA, BB fixed that in a week. As far as hurting youth hockey, Rink Rats were dying, Rebellion is growing. Printscspe is a nice facility, and regardless of the deal that was made, Rebellion are working with BB and growing. Badgers are still strong org with PPI and BB has been working with them for 2 years. Phantoms show signs of growth. Curious to watch Rostravier and Mon Valley. That was a dying rink with a shrinking program, lets see what BB buying leads to. Can only get better imo. Having been at NHAHA, when BB yook over, I saw first hand the meeting with them that some members of the NHAHA board were very hostile with their questions and comments. I dont know how their private meetings went from there, but from comments from those I talked to suggested it was more of the same. You cant be hostile when trying to compromise and you have to give to get. I think BB could be a good thing. I welcome taking the bad board parents, coaches and managers, who make decisions for their own good as opposed to whats best for the org, out of the loop. You could argue that BB is better qualified as opposed to volunteer parents. Maybe that is why those that get ousted are more upset, its about losing their control than whats best for hockey growth. Idk Im sure this post wont be well recieved by some or many. My point is to say there are always more perspectives on any situation. Assuming BB is bad cause a few handfuls say so, without researching, is irresponsbile. Also, whats bad for one person or group is not bad for the rest.

Yes, you’ll notice I said “some”. I don’t kid myself that PPE would stoop to that level. If BB can offer their AAA league giving those AAA programs that play independent a league option with competition from the East and maybe draw in some OH teams then it could have a West division of that league. Some teams may choose to play there even though they are not controlled by BB because it gives them a league instead of just playing for MHR ranking.

I had not heard that about the Preds. That would be something. But it does feel like every time we hear a rumor about a Black Bear purchase, it eventually comes to pass.

That is what happened in Philly. I have a few friends that are in organizations out East that decided to join the Black Bear league because there was less travel. Their rinks were not BB owned rinks. Will be interesting to watch. I’m curious to see if they can pull some of the “AAA” teams back in and get them to play each other

I think your comparison of travel between Black Bear and PAHL may actually be reversed. I think the takeover is going to happen so fast and furious that there will be more local AFH teams than local PAHL teams. A few dominoes will fall and then even organizations at non-Black Bear rinks will join the AHF. I think next season it's going to be 50/50, the season after that 75/25 local AHF teams to PAHL teams. The PAHL teams will need to travel more to find competitive teams unless they want to play the same three teams a half dozen times per season. We know Allegheny Badgers, Rebellion, Huskies, Thunder, and Phantoms will be AHF organizations before we know it. I would guess next season. I believe Badgers are currently the largest PAHL organization? That's a lot of teams. Rebellion is also probably a top 7 or so origination in terms of PAHL teams. Those teams will probably be the start of an AHF "West" division. And I actually think those orgs will pick up players and teams as ice allows it. Parents are suckers for the live scoring, app, all star games, and what they perceive as additional "exposure" for their kids. And then all it takes is one or two more PAHL orgs in non Black Bear rinks to jump over to the AHF. All of a sudden Black Bear is no longer pushing the boulder up a hill. It's crested and starting to roll down hill, picking up the vast majority of other PAHL teams as it builds momentum. I'm torn about all this. AHF has some pretty cool things. I think the hockey is probably better or at least more interesting than PAHL. But there is no doubt it's going to make youth hockey even more expensive in WPA.

Rock, I understand what you are saying. Again, I am not able to comment on Black Bear... don't know enough about them. I am sure people don't like them, but is that because they can't pull their political BS with Black Bear? Is their kid actually playing A Minor Black where they belong instead of being put on the AA team because mom's on the board? My focus isn't even Black Bear, per se. Profit is not the same as politics. What drew my attention in this chain is that so many people want to see Black Bear as this evil empire, and are totally willing to absolve the local organizations of the political BS that helped opened the door to the Black Bears of the world to begin with. We're talking about the Vipers at the moment. Is that what may have happened there? How did they go from having TONS of loaded teams just a few years ago to having a handful of teams this year? Black Bear? We have very good friends who USED to be in the Vipers organization when it was hot. They said the Vipers Board was split because some of the more reasonable members wanted to maintain the developmental model that was working, while the board members who wanted their kids to be "AA" players pushed the Stars "AA" program (even if it wasn't AA like sadday4hockey stated). Maybe they righted that ship somewhat, because the '08 AA team seems to be doing well this year, but that same team was winless just a couple years ago because they weren't truly AA. But the damage was done organizationally, right? That's what makes me shake my head. Yes, politics happens everywhere, but why aren't boards, coaches, managers, etc. ever accountable for the political moves they make (other than families just moving to another organization)? Too many parent board members/coaches/managers hook their own kids up to the detriment of the organizations. Do we (as a whole) learn from that? No. We see the same thing over and over again, and now we are supposed to sympathize with an organization who slit their own throat? Not from this cat.

The negotiations were fluid, I felt. We thought we were making head way. But it all came down to control…they wanted full control to run it as a for profit. We were trying to find a middle ground where it stays non profit. We had a meeting, both sides gave ideas on how it could work. Then the day after Christmas, they shut it down. The impasse was control but we truly believed we were making head way. I can’t speak much on Esmark because I am not all that involved on that end. But it is my understanding that the “alignment” with Black Bear is 1 sided. There was no knowledge until PIA’s posting that they were attempting to separate Esmark from Vipers/Viper Stars. Again, many surprises that day…