Danner27

8 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

At 18U, some players are aware that there really is no next level for them other than ACHA or D3. There is something to be said for their insight and also for the fact maybe being a "grinder" on the better team is more fun because they win more games. Even at the U16 level at PPE, the 3rd and 4th liners are not getting near as much scout attention as the top 6 and if you really believe that THEY are rolling 4 lines....... you're sadly mistaken.

 

Go to elite prospects. Look up the midget teams. Notice 4-5 kids on each team have good stats then everyone else just drops off to hell. That’s ICETIME. You would be happy with your kid getting 2-3 shifts the first period, 1-2 in the second and possible zero in the 3rd ? Esmark plays their top 6. They get the pp & pk time to boot. Lines 3 & 4 don’t play much even if the esmark team is blowing someone out they still run that top 6 like crazy to pad the player’s  stats. It’s the way they always have been. They are successful, somehow they manage to keep kids that are pretty darn good paying to play on the 3rd and 4th line. On PPE my kid bounced between the 3rd & 4th line. He took a regular shift unless it was a very close game under 5 minutes to play. 

8 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

I think it's pretty jive to expect someone to attend a religious school to play hockey. 

Post grad, the families and players don’t care. It’s just about the hockey development and getting scouted when the player is out of HS. 

1 hour ago, hockeydeke said:

Well...let’s review:

Over half the NC Varsity team is in Excel Academy?   FALSE (it’s 4)

Two play on Esmark?  FALSE (only one)

One of the “two” Esmark players is in Excel?  FALSE (the only Esmark player is not in EXCEL).

Lets also deal with the “foreign” statements about Kazakhstan and Canada.  FALSE 

There is one foreign student from Kazakhstan.  There is no player from Canada.  There was one a few years ago in JV.

So...the poster came out of the gate with those assertions to argue a point.  And those assertions were not factual.

Still on this ? As king mentioned above. I was showing how NC varsity was built. Off the top of my head I figured it was half the NC team Due to the players I know, it turned out to be 7 out of 18 skaters. That’s pretty darn close, i didn’t realize esmark 18u #2 kid left esmark half way into the season (that would be 8 ) NC varsity does have a kazastan kid, he came here to try and make the pens, he didn’t now he’s on that awful 16u icemen team but still hoping for the gold helmet next year. The Canadian kid is on a esmark midget team. When I ask a few coaches where the kid is, I was told he decided to drop out of the NC varsity tryout because the level of play was “bad”. had he stayed that would make 9 players or 50% of the 18 skaters roster.

face the FACT, NC varsity would not exist if it wasn’t for excel / PPE. 

1 hour ago, The King said:

You don’t get it. @OrrWhat rehashed again what differentiates the teams. The reasons why it will be attractive are way beyond what you seem to be able to grasp. Even though you say you’re an insider. They didn’t care about this season at 18u because they knew what was going to happen in the future. They will own the Tier 1 level in Pittsburgh. 

These people don’t understand the multiple hockey path’s. Post grad, the list goes on. I’m pretty sure you and myself have spelled it out very clear. I can’t be bothered to try and educate anymore. 

14 minutes ago, twoboys said:

I don't get it either.  It is almost like they are forming the team for the benefit of North Catholic.  Trying to give those attending NC/Excel a reason to stay at North Catholic after U16.  Or maybe if they get pushed off the team after U15 they can stay at North Catholic and play prep.

You people will never understand it’s been explained. 

1 minute ago, PuckHead7 said:

Don’t forget, you have to attend NC to be able to be on the PPE Prep team.  Esmark will still be a very good team, but probably number 2 in Pgh.  Also, high end scouts attend Pens and Esmark games.  All this crap about them not seeing Esmark players is untrue.  Why in the hell would they only flock to PPE when PPE doesn’t have all of the best players in Pgh. ?

Mr morehosue makes sure the scouts come to cranberry. The only age group Esmark has better players is the 18s. Trust when I tell you no OHL, USHL or NAHL scout is hanging out at PIA. My kids have played for both programs. The only “scout” you will ever see at pia is good ol local grumpy bob g. 

16 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

If the Pens Elite field two separate 18U teams next season (Prep and Midget), I'd 100% choose Esmark if I didn't make Prep. Esmark's 18U team will be 10x better than the Pens Elite 18U Midget team -- and scouts would focus on the Prep team.

So you would rather your kid play on a better ranked  team but get stuck with grinder defensive work and less playing time ? How does that help the player to develop ? These kids need to develop their skill sets. Getting “pro” 3rd & 4th line minutes in youth hockey won’t do that. 

the scouts are watching ALL PPE. It’s the only building the scouts goto when they come to Pittsburgh, Mr Morehouse makes sure of that. 

esmark doesn’t have a nutritionist, They do not have a power skating coach. they encourage their players to play school hockey so they get more ice time and reps. Esmark midget teams are only on the ice twice a week. there is only so much ice they can get from pia. Who really wants to drive out to the ghetto in new kenn ? cranberry is pretty central for most people and easy highway driving. Unless you live by pia it’s a nightmare to get there from the north, south and west.

i agree with you, esmark’s midget teams are for real but if you're looking for your kid to develop, PPE is the far better option. PPE 18U next season won’t be the train wreck it is this year. They have already starting the recruiting process for the 18’s and most of the prep team.
 

4 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

The Prep team will replace the current 18U team. They are barely fielding one team this year, how will they possibly field 2 next year? Would anyone possibly consider their "second team" over Esmark 18U? No way considering they are currently choosing Esmark over the 1st team in many cases.

You people still don’t get it. As for choosing esmark of PPE, if you are a parent it’s a no brainer, PPE. upmc is the only building in Pittsburgh any real scouts are at, the training is superior. Take a look at esmark’s 18u Player stats. It’s been well known if you are not in their top 6 forward or top 4 d you are not going to play much. Like a pro team, lines 3 & 4 are checking / defensive lines, That’s why they win. In my opinion turning players into that at 17&18 is bad for the development. PPE does not do this. 

5 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

Funny. All this just to have your kid pay to play club hockey for Slippery Rock. 

Fact

the prep team will be on the ice 5 days a week. Do you not understand prep ? Honestly how dumb are you people ? No wonder why it’s so easy for people to suck money out of parents around here. 
 

10 hours ago, hockeydeke said:

The numbers for this year were easy to find out.  Someone would have to check but the three years of JV had no more that 1 or 2 players maybe 3 at most on the JV team from Excel.  Which makes sense since I am not sure a borderline PPE player would be doing JV.

If you are referring to current NC players...I don’t think there are any that are former Excel program players beyond the ones that are in the program this year and were last year.  But even it is one or two it wouldn’t really matter.

People seem to be under the impression that Excel and the Varsity team are so intertwined or have been.  There is nothing to suggest that it is...beyond the small number of players that have done both.

If this is such a concern or question there are people out there in the program one could ask directly.

But this particular discussion was started with the assertion that “over half” of the Varsity team was Excel...so therefore the Varsity Team would not exist without Excel.

That is demonstrably false.

It will be interesting to see if PPE allows the U18 Prep players to play high school...which they don’t for all the other teams.

I can tell you 3 kids I know who went to excel and quit but still goto cwnc and play on your varsity team. So the 4 current and 3 former we are up to 7 now. Your top 6 in points are made up from 5 of these kids. Yes there are many kids that goto excel and don’t play varsity at cwnc. cwnc doesn’t have a varsity hockey team if not for excel / ppe. 
 

“it will be interesting to see if PPE allows the U18 prep plays to play hs” this statement has made me not even want to waste my time debating with you, you really can’t be this stupid ? 

11 minutes ago, The King said:

The point being made is that players joined Excel at its inception and following years in hopes of locking down a PPE spot. They were cut by PPE, left Excel HOWEVER, remained at North Catholic. This is why NC would even entertain a scenario like this. Possible added enrollment. So Excel brought them to the school, NC varsity hockey gave them a home when the PPE hopes were dashed. NC will always be saddled with most of the liability here. They embraced a program where they accepted the enrollments of students based on an athletic program. HOWEVER, this program is outside of the school’s curriculum and cannot be seen as recruitment or bias. Now, let’s say 10 players entering their Freshman year joined Excel for whatever reason. 10 players attend school for 8 months and train half the day. 7 of these players are cut by PPE in April. Let’s then say 3 leave NC before their Sophmore year. 4 stay and become NC hockey players. Now do this every year and you have quite the PIHL program going. 
 

I’ll ask again, how many players in NC’s team attended Excel in the past? You knew pretty quickly about the 4 that do so I’m sure you can figure out who the others are.

Bingo!

This CWNC dad still ignoring the “any other school” statement he made. 

5 hours ago, The King said:

How many of the players not CURRENTLY in Excel were FORMERLY in Excel?

He doesn’t get it!

9 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Hate to bust some bubbles, half of the NC varsity team are excel kids. I personally know three of them. NC doesn’t have enough kids that are just NC student’s to field a varsity team. 
 

also, the statement - if any other school was close to the upmc rink, that would be the school involved with excel is completely wrong. Moorehouse is an alum of NC. That rink was suppose to be built down by camp horn, moorehouse worked with butler county on tax breaks and NC to have the rink built where it is. Who’s paying for the new exit being built off 79 that goes right to rink ? It’s not the state nor the Penguins. It’s the cranberry tax payers. 

You ignored the any other school statement you made. No answer for this ?

1 hour ago, hockeydeke said:

Well anyone who is interested in the facts could see that there are only 4 players of the 20 team roster that are Excel by simply asking someone in the program...when actual names could be used.

would the program fold without those 4??  Lol...no.

would they still be 11-1?  Probably not...but then that is a separate discussion about AAA/AA players on any high school team.

TJ being the poster child for that question in “A”.

 

 

You just don’t get it, kids are there because of excel and pens. 

7 minutes ago, hockeydeke said:

So you were faced with the demonstration that your “facts” were wrong and your rebuttal is a personal attack?   LOL....
 

If you want to debate what the impact of the Excel Program is on NC, then let’s do so with the actual facts about who plays on what.  You argued that NC hockey wouldn’t exist without the EXCEL program because “over half” of the NC varsity players are in the Excel program.

That is incorrect...the number is four....not 11+ it would take to be “over half”.

so....is it reasonable then to suggest that NC Varsity hockey would not exist because 4 players are on Excel?

Probably not.

You are obviously not a fan of North Catholic for whatever reason...so not sure why any of this matters to you anyways.

Smh. It’s more than 4, I admitted it’s also one esmark 18u kid not 2, it was two until the kid left esmark. Yes CWNC would not have a varsity team of it wasn’t for excel, that’s a fact. 

1 hour ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Anyone know if they're still planning to build a regulation-sized ice rink in the Hunt Armory in Shadyside? Haven't heard any updates for awhile. I see parking/traffic being an issue down there, but wonder which organizations/teams would use Hunt Armory as their home rink? I would guess at least Chatham and Pitt.

Sounds like Pitt just shot down any possibility of having NCAA hockey. They are building new stuff for volleyball.

1 hour ago, hockeydeke said:

Well that might mean that I have access to some actual facts.  But don’t take my word for it.  You said there were TWO 18U Esmark players on NC.  I said there was one.  Anyone can go look at the roster of BOTH teams and see that there is only ONE as I said.

Facts are stubborn things.

As for the 4 Excel kids...that can easily be confirmed by anyone by asking someone within the program.  It’s not hard.

Go use EP to look at your teams. You are correct about one thing, the second esmark 18u kid quit esmark. Your top 6 scorers are all on that team because they tried to make the pens. I personally know some of these families. 
 

I’ll always call it “CW North Catholic”. Funny how fast that CW came off the sign and the story went away in two days. 
 

your kid didn’t make PPE or ESMARK. Go sit in the corner and make up more excuses how “pure” the CWNC varsity team is. 

1 hour ago, hockeydeke said:

I did a little research.  Here is what I found.

rostered 21

active roster 20 (one player has not played in a single game)

number of active rostered players in Excel is 4.

that is 20%...a far cry from the “over half” stated.

There is only one Esmark player on the team and that player is not in Excel.

So...might want to check your own research.  In mine I discovered it was 4 instead of the 3.

Regardless, there is no basis for the argument that NC would not exist if it were not for Excel...certainly on the false notion that “over half” are Excel.

 

Either you can’t read. Or you’re just not ah forget it. It’s obvious your kid goes to NC. If I could name the names I would. 

34 minutes ago, The King said:

How many of the players not CURRENTLY in Excel were FORMERLY in Excel?

They don’t get it, wasting your finger motions typing. 

1 hour ago, The King said:

All very Interesting. Now, I think part of the issue here is that many of these folks don’t have a proper understanding of the Excel academy. Its not really a new concept. Ontario Hockey Academy ring a bell. There have been other posters on here touting similar Academies (Lake Tahoe?). These are not traditional Academies like SSA or Prep schools in NE. They’re rink based hockey programs that use a local HS as their academic entity. Most, of not all, Excel players should be eligible for PIHL hockey if they’re enrolled. My guess is they choose not to. Why would they? Here’s what I can say to best exemplify why they would and what Excel is. If the Pens were simply forcing or mandating that their players go to Excel, they failed miserably. I would bet less than half of the Pens U18 or U16 players attended NC. So how does Excel still exists? Isn’t it possible that people would put their players in the Excel program believing they had a leg up on PPE roster spots? Maybe the black team players or maybe long time PPE players that are just entering the Midget level, felt that joining Excel was their ticket. Then they get cut. So they’re still Excel players at NC but don’t have a team to play for. Has anyone seen Excel tryouts listed? Is it possible that NC’s PIHL team is now the beneficiary of the Excel players that were stuck without a team? But they’ve also found a new way around the recruiting hurdle for private schools. Not unlike Lincoln Park and their Basketball players. The term Prep is loosely used in this instance with PPE. It’s not a Preparatory Academy. But they will compete as one nationally. As @Danner27 said, they’ve figured out a way to control the entire market. It’s been in the works for many years. 

The unfortunate part, the average consumer is not educated. 
the main reason NC has any hockey players is to try and get a leg up for PPE. They are all their for that reason. The ones that say they are not are the ones who’s kids did not or could not make PPE. This year they have separated PPE players for EXCEL / NC in the looker rooms even though they all go out on the ice together. Yes segregation lmao! Part of the reason was to keep what the ppe kids do on the down low. (remember a very highly recruited 03 smoking pot last year and the locker room fight ?) now this topic will soon be removed. 

19 minutes ago, hockeydeke said:

Then you know the ONLY 3 there actually are. That is out of a roster of 19 or 20 I believe.  Hardly “half”.

I just looked at their roster, we can’t name kids here but do a little research. You’ll find kids from Canada, kazastan, Ohio and some other states. I personally know a kid from NA that goes to nc/excel to hopefully make PPE someday, he is On the NC varsity team. With out excel NC would not have a varsity team. Their are also two 18u esmark kids that do excel / NC on the NC varsity team. 

Hate to bust some bubbles, half of the NC varsity team are excel kids. I personally know three of them. NC doesn’t have enough kids that are just NC student’s to field a varsity team. 
 

also, the statement - if any other school was close to the upmc rink, that would be the school involved with excel is completely wrong. Moorehouse is an alum of NC. That rink was suppose to be built down by camp horn, moorehouse worked with butler county on tax breaks and NC to have the rink built where it is. Who’s paying for the new exit being built off 79 that goes right to rink ? It’s not the state nor the Penguins. It’s the cranberry tax payers. 

5 minutes ago, The King said:

This is why I cringe when I hear people say things like “it’s about the kids” or “just let them have fun”. Every initiative that the governing bodies have taken on for 15-20 years has been motivated by money. Don’t forget these 2 words-Greed and self preservation. Many people have exploited this sport for those reasons. It’s just capitalism. The genius is in targeting certain markets and strong arming them without them noticing. They’ve monopolized the sport and taken possession of the memberships’ earnings without even the slightest wince from them. 

I’m glad my oldest is done and my second is graduating. They loved the game, played at high levels. As a parent I feel this is the perfect time to be out of this hamster wheel of money sucking sport. 
 

I really wish the state AG would investigate the pens but that’s never going to happen. I’m sure when you look at the upmc side of things, the amount of money is not comprehendible to us common folk.  

1 minute ago, sadday4hockey said:

https://990finder.foundationcenter.org/990results.aspx?990_type=&fn=penguins+foundation&st=PA&zp=&ei=&fy=&action=Search

Over half a million dollars went from the Penguins Foundation to the PPE over the last 3 years. I guess this the "tax shelter" of which was referenced above. You couple this with whatever the Dick's sponsorship amount is and one has to wonder how and why the fees continue to rise.

Don’t forget the 50/50 raffle at every pro home game, 20-40k a game going into the pens pockets “thanks for helping raising money for Pittsburgh youth hockey and the penguins elite program”.