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You can have a 50-50 battle at the blue line, or you can have a 50-50 battle behind the opponents' goal line. If you want to see more offense and more scoring and just as much creativity, let them have the battle behind the goal line. The new offsides rule forces a puck carrier at the blue line to turn back and re-group into traffic. On occasion I have seen as many as 8 or 9 skaters between the blue and the red line because of the turn back. Yes some creativity will be required to keep possession. But the rule forces more play and more time spent in the neutral zone with high traffic. Is this really what we want to see and where we want to play the game?

The new checking rule appears to be: If it's loud on the boards or glass- 2 minutes If the kid being checked falls- 2 minutes If the kid doing the checking is bigger than the one being checked and one or both of the above happen- that's a two and ten It's ridiculous.

In theory, sunshine, rainbows and magical skills. In reality just one whistle after another, no flow and even less continuous play.

TEAMS 2122_Divisions_9.21.21.pdf

It sounds like you’ve just completed your first level cep and had your head pumped full from the good idea fairies from usa hockey. kids get better by playing the game. Not by constant whistles and stoppage of play. There is no proof that automatic offside has made anyone a better player. It’s simply there because it’s easier for newer and unskilled officials to make the call than managing the numbers of delayed off sides. Same with icing at all times. It makes it easier to just call an icing regardless of game context. Creativity on the penalty kill is about the last thing you want to be teaching young players. Positioning, reading passes etc on the other hand…

The predator’s always had extra fee’s for Gary’s gym. they were at one time the “cheapest” “AAA” - advertised in the $2000 range. I could be mistaken, but I believe it was advertised just like that on their website. I remember a dad telling us by the time he paid coaches fees. Slush fund, yellow helmet-gloves-bag-jerseys, some crappy league fee (njphl or something ?), mandatory gym fee etc the cost was higher than what we had ever paid @ esmark. (PPE had the highest fees in our day) This parent compared it to buying a new car “I thought it would cost this but by the time we drove it off the lot it was much more with all the up selling and it lost its value!” I will say the season fees at PPE were justified even though it was highest we ever paid. Excellent coaching & real trainers. My son was on the ice 3 days a week, off ice 2-3 days a week. He practically lived at the rink. Excel didn’t exist yet. In comparison Esmark had a joke of an off ice program with 2 days a week practice. on the flip side, esmark’s travel was higher than anything we ever did at ppe, I’m sure much higher than the predators. Sorry to highjack this thread with fee’s but the current discussion of birth year teams just reminded me how few tier 1 teams there were 8-10 years ago in the states. Along with how good AA hockey was back then. I don’t think growth is the reason for the current landscape (not just in western pa) it’s people finding more ways to make money, younger parents with high hopes, truly uneducated parents falling for the sales pitch along with status parents. I also believe PPE helped destroy tier 2 locally with their bull$hit black teams. I remember watching the first year these black teams came out, it was a squirt major or peewee minor team I think (possibly 2004 BY I am trying to do the math real quick in my head as I type) I was dumbfounded how bad the players were, how bad they skated. I believe the coach was a dad with two kids on the team. It’s hard to remember, I could be wrong on the BY, I’ve seen to much youth hockey & it’s starting to run together anymore. Anyway, It went against everything PPE was trying to be. Looking back now it’s obvious why those black teams were created - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ taken from the type of parents I was speaking about above, to subsidize the pro practice rink. The same kind of parents today that will gladly pay the money for that extra A at predators, Icemen, Vengance & whomever else is calling themselves AAA these days. I am really showing my age, it’s probably time for me to depart this place. I’m thankful the majority of my kids playing days it wasn’t like it is today. If I could turn back the clocks, have the knowledge I have now, I would have tried to enjoy it more. Not worry about how well they play, how competitive they are etc. before you realize it, it’s all over. Sorry for ramblin’ on. Good luck to the younger parents, there are predators after your cash everywhere these days in the hockey world!

You are right on here Saucey! Most people don't realize how quickly it will be over when they are in the moment. I've seen it from a PAHL schedule and an independent schedule. The travel and hotel costs are not worth the extra expense when the teams you are playing are not any better than the PAHL teams you could have played within an hour of home. I like the PAHL schedule with 4 out of town tournaments.

I don't want to see PAHL cater to something that isn't a good way to develop. Parents dictating structure based on ignorance and dad's ego is not good for hockey around here. Maybe there needs to be more of an outreach to educate younger parents. PAHL can do that. PAHL organizations can do that. Neither of my boys played in that minor BY model. They either played up or in A minor. That stigma associated with playing A minor in your rising year is a new phenomena, and it's not good. When my boys came up, it was normal to be on team 2 or 3 every other year and AA major your second year. You had to be really good, or born in a low BY to play AA both years. The kids I see coming out of that minor year are timid with checking. PAHL created that level to make it safer to check and it seems to just delay the learning process. Making choices on where to play and levels based on theoretical kids you want to recruit the next season is terrible. What does that say about what those coaches think of the kids that they have? They are wanting to cut kids on their current roster. Great way to spend your time and money, folks. Serve your current players in the season you are in. Develop what you have over wishing for something different. My boys were not always top players.They play for an organization who develops. They have had good and bad coaches, winning and losing seasons.. They've had some private instruction in the off season. They are naturally good athletes. They love it. Let them play where they fall, let them develop. Kids grow and change. They play in divisions with a lot of bad teams. They continue to get better. I don't think you are going to see change with PAHL going to BY. It all starts to wind down at midget, folks. Enjoy the moment. All that chasing chasing chasing...I am on the back end of watching people do that. I don't see those kids who are running around with these independent teams becoming significantly better hockey players. That has to be PAHL's end game. Not stroking parents. Develop the players.

Sure. Keep in mind last year was an odd year due to Covid. So they skipped placement games. we were listed as A minor gold. Our coach looked at our roster and where kids were prior year and thought PAHL was way off. Our team loaded a ton of scrimmages against PAHl teams one to 2 divisions above us. Because PA was closed we bought ice in Ohio. Our team outshot and out scored opponents. In the end the team moved up to A Major white. Scoresheets and evals were sent to PAHl for consideration They played a little over 50 games between tournaments and PAHL. In PAHL they finished around the .500 mark. Games were very competitive and didnt have any blowouts.

Frankly, it doesn't make a difference to me if I drive two hours or four hours. If you are a decent AA team you can't just go to any tournament. You have to be picky. And you better schedule some independent games. 2 games per team at home. Guessing 700 a game. So, 1400 for a pair of games. Do this 3-5 times. Your regular PAHL team isn't doing this. To those that complain about the travel, you completely ignore that most/all of the parents enjoy it. And the parents that travel a lot are "hockey rich". Which is more wealthy than the average rich family. The other thing about playing a challenging schedule as a AA without travel is that a lot of ice is required. Looking at SHAHA 09, they are hosting teams but had to rent ice from Rostraver. Say you want to bring in 4 teams and offer every team 4 games, that is a lot of ice. Most teams that travel for independent games travel for a minimum of 2 but prefer 4 if it is

The automatic offsides is the stupidest thing in all of hockey.

one thing WE can all agree on is NONE of theirs BY teams are no where close to being a aaa team. mediocre at best aa teams. King Ralph is laughing all the way to the bank

The only teams that should be traveling this far to find competitive games are legit Tier 1 teams!

Generally, I find the larger the tournament the more likely you will have competitive games. The more teams the better the tournament director can divide teams into tighter skill ranges and the less the teams the more likely you will get someone out of place shoved into a bracket (either someone who beats all the other teams handily or gets beat by everyone).

A team's manager or head coach needs to contact the tournament director prior to registering and ask for a list of participating teams in whatever division they plan on entering. Most will give you this info and then decide based off the other teams that are participating. If the tournament is unwilling to do this, I would suggest moving on to something different, there's enough to go around. No reason to go to NY or VA to play teams that are 20 minutes down the road.

Wow!! The Luftansa Heist looks like a child's play compared to these guys.

Oh, I agree they do. But they go Vengeance or Esmark now. SHAHA puts out better BY than the Preds. So I scoff more at the idea of going to Preds when cut.

Pens cuts go where ever they want. Don't think most organizations turn them away.

I think they might be. Either preds or Esmark depending on where you live. I don't think vengeance take pens cuts or they would be going there too.

I'm just throwing some ideas around. I thought that was the point of this forum. And I'm not talking about one or two teams. I'm talking about the entire landscape of PAHL and trends I'm seeing. I'd rather adapt than shout at the wind (BY teams) and ask it to change directions. Thanks to everyone for helping me think through this issue. Some good thoughts in here.

Problem becomes the AA. Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A. By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA. Some come back to PAHL but most don't.

I thought it may have been discussed on here before, even though I know the inner workings I’m not sure it’s my place to put it all out there. The short that I feel everyone around knows (with out the 2 years of major details) he questioned the excel / nc thing publicly - Morehouse threatened to kick his kids out of the program - PPE didn’t like that he was doing “free” skills across the street to help kids - he voiced his opinion on lesser players (2003) getting showcased (it’s pretty obvious now he was correct) - Morehouse banned him from the rink so he went to the away games 😂There is a lot, in the end, he came out on top - not just his own son but others he believed in. especially an 02 PPE kicked out that is on a path to play for PSU. I could list 10 players from 02-03 birth year that he was directly involved with that are all playing real junior hockey in the ushl, ohl etc. all these kids are on a track to major ncaa d1 programs or pro. PPE used some of these kids to get a national championship for a certain group of 2003’s playing up at U16 and tossed the others because the families wouldn’t pay (or couldn’t afford) the ransom. I’m sure In another 2-3 years these kids will be on the upmc rinks wall but PPE had nothing to do with their success. Someone else did, Marc.

Is there actually an election for PAHL??? I've had children in hockey for 10+ years here and literally never seen a ballot or communication directly from PAHL.

Agreed, offsides is ridiculous.

Unless the SHAHA 09 team is able to play the Pens or Vengeance 09 teams (and no, they aren’t as strong as those two teams), they aren’t going to find competitive games locally. They may lose a game in AA PAHL this year, but they’ll outshoot their opponents 2-1 just about every game. I actually like how they are structuring things. They are playing PAHL AA (unlike Preds 09 who aren’t as strong) and supplementing with a lot of independent games. Cleveland Barons, Team Ohio, etc. It would be bizarre for that team not to travel this year. To me this is how things should work. Don’t go independent until you absolutely dominate PAHL AA. Until then, it just hurts PAHL hockey for teams to go independent.

Agree 100% that the automatic offsides is an absurd rule that needs to go away immediately.

It's great to have your wisdom and opinions here! You are helping a lot of people here from your experience. We may not always agree but what you have to say is always worth reading. Thanks and I hope you keep adding from your experiences.

Well, SHAHA 09 is peewee. I think it is ridiculous to travel so far at such young ages, worrying about playing teams. I also suspect they can find games locally. Tournaments are an expensive way to develop, add in extensive travel and that is worse.

Although appeal games rarely overturn PAHL's final placement of teams, they are particularly done by teams wanting to be placed in a higher division spurred by the rumblings of anabolic parents and their desire for their kid to play at a higher level.

I don't disagree with what you said here, except that it's a matter of perspective. Whether a tournament is worth attending is a matter of what your goals are. I have found that going out of town for a tournament is a nice team building thing, and the kids (and the parents) generally have a great time. They're not a great way to find competitive games because they're hit and miss on that, and as we noted, you often end up playing someone you could have played at home. In other words, you don't go to a tournament as part of building your national bound or AAA resume. That's true. But there are maybe some other good reasons to go to them, for some teams. If my kids were on one of those "AAA" or "AA" teams our area seems to have such an abundance of on paper, I'd agree. They play so many games on those teams that adding a tournament seems silly.

That requires a good team manager/head coach who knows what they are doing or cares. Lol. I hear ya, but too many of those tournaments jerk you around. There are some good ones.

This is straying from the topic a bit, but I find tournaments to be the least useful thing you can do dollar for dollar. I'd rather schedule some independent games and control who you play. They are largely a racket.

Yea that's true. And then you travel to Buffalo or somewhere for a tournament and play all the same PAHL teams again.

i feel like a lot of these kids, coaches, and parents going independent are just tired of paying the same kids and same organizations over and over every year.. its new opportunity to play different teams, different kids.. when you start playing so young you fall into playing the same teams and kids year after year after year..

LOL……..the “off-ice training” fee that is offered to these teams may be the biggest rip off of all time. All I hear is the so-called trainers spend more time on their phones than they do in instruction and getting the kids a solid workout. And if any AA or lower team makes the off-ice training mandatory with a separate fee, run for the hills and look elsewhere.

I mean, kids being cut from Pens are not like...hmmm...where can I play next....ooooo, the Preds have a BY team, let me go there!

I'm not sure specifically about the Preds but I believe $500ish is fairly common.

Not all of the time, but typically BY teams get a paid non-parent coach, more ice time and more full ice time. Most teams at a sub AA level get shared / hybrid ice and if full ice is offered it is usually at O-Dark-30 on Saturdays or Sundays.

Hmmm... Predator fees for birth year teams are mysteriously higher than mixed birth year teams. And on top of season fees you get a bonus fee for coaching. At least you and your kid will feel special. Kind of makes you wonder who the real predator is here.

This is pretty much what this whole post is calling for. Creating a whole new AA division, specially catered to 1-2 teams because mommy and daddy can bear to have their kid not called AA for a season. Listen, if you’re that worried that your kid as a 11 year old can’t even share the same sheet of ice with a 12 year old, regardless of level, that’s a big problem. Regardless if programs want to go full independent to avoid it, that’s their choice. An expensive and busy one but who cares from anyone in the league or not on the predators pee wee team. We’ve given about 100 scenarios why it’s generally a bad idea and what might work but RJ only will accept the creation of a new division to cater to one team, allegedly in the name of saving pahl hockey.

No, only those minor BY teams that want to pursue playing at AA. In this scenario if you are a pure minor BY but are not AA then play at A major, etc. There would still be a placement process for those teams with what I proposed above.

In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year....

This 100% correct, not every division should have BY, but having ONLY AA Major and AA Minor from 10U up should help to mitigate the number of teams making the choice to go independent. Everything below AA would still be mixed BY. This would also give minor kids something to work towards when trying out if it is a "deep" organization where a talented minor player wouldn't get a shot at the major team due to a factor such as size. Just a thought.

Last two posts are spot on! Now just need everyone else to wake up.

That looks EXACTLY the way a division should look.

he teamed up with another couple dads who went icemen, shaha, Preds, then vengeance. somethings never change

Seems like they should beat all the PAHL 09/AA teams before trying AAA? This year the size difference shouldn't exist.

One of my boys just pointed out to me “dad you know the parent he’s talking about” I do ? after a small conversion I do! I guess he’s not calling games anymore ? Looks like things haven’t changed much, this is his second run with vengeance. My son just told me in the past three years one of his kids went vengeance-Lebo-predators now back to the vengeance.

There are approximately 8 organizations that I can see supporting BY teams. Hornets / N. Pitt / SHAHA / Preds / SCIR / S. Pitt / Allegheny / Foxes That said, it would be really hard to have 8 organizations with BY teams without wondering how it compromises the rest of the organizations and also teams within their divisions. I think it would be great for the organizations involved but also cause a massive competitive imbalance throughout the rest of the league that would be playing mixed BY. You would have teams like Cambria and Westmoreland fielding teams with their top players playing against the essential “team 3”s from the larger orgs. As I stated before, many of the teams on the outer regions of the PAHL jurisdiction already have 3-4 players per team playing a few divisions below their talent level. On the other hand, the better “known quantity” tournaments in the country (CCM, Superseries etc…) are all trending toward birth year divisions. The mixed BY tournaments like MYHockey etc. are such a crap shoot with lopsided and mismatched divisions way too often. it’s a tough call in a day and age where even everyone A Major and above are supplementing their PAHL schedule with teams from Ohio, NY etc.. and birth year being a factor in scheduling those games. I only have ideas but can’t form a perfect solution as of yet.

not all organizations let full teams join their association, but there are some that are known to let coachs/dads bring in a almost full team. I think people on here probably know which ones do and which ones dont the problem that poses is some of those pahl teams who want to be independent or AA/a teams get mad when organization won't let them, so they jump to these other organizations that will let them. also, if you ever look at schedules, the independent and AA/a teams rarely play any PAHL teams. they are afraid of losing. they have no problem driving to Columbus or buffalo and going 0-3 over the weekend with a 4-30 goal differential as long as it isn't a PAHL team.