Rewster

Hi PA Hockey—Would you know of, or possibly provide a link so we could be immediately directed to this High School Hockey Tournament? I know that I’ve been seeing more and more tournaments in South Bend over the past few years. From what I’ve seen, their facility looks really awesome. I’ve heard comparisons between ND and PSUs Pegula Ice Arena are pretty close. It looks like a great place to play and just curious if you had a link. I did a very quick Google search/scan and only found previous year’s results.

Wait, whaa?!? Where can one find all of this wonderful information? Now, if I am not mistaken…the Central States Developmental League is slightly larger than our local 18U AA league. They have 14 members comprising their league at this level; and the PAHL just has 8. It seems to me that it would be much more difficult to conduct accurate statistics tracking for each team—especially their players—during the season when the league is almost 2X the size of PAHL. The CSDHL appears to have minimal no difficulty with accurate accounting throughout the season. The CSDHL is thee model of what an American Tier 2 AA league should look like. They are based around Chicago—which is not exactly in anyones top 3 regions for hockey development in the States—as Minnesota, New England, and Michigan are the usual suspects. Now, we have the trend of grouping a bunch of random teams around the country under one umbrella; slapping a them with a logo on their uniforms; and saying they are a mega-league consisting of 30+ teams. Think AHF, NAPHL Showcase, even BEAST has some Tier 2 teams in their 35-team league. The CSDHL is solid. They own the top 5-10 positions in the rankings. They ain’t goin’ nowhere. If you go down slightly on the league rankings…you’ll see that the PAHL is the second best, full-season league in America. The Minnesota Tier 2 league is basically a late summer/early fall league that plays a short season schedule due to the fact that Minnesota High School Hockey is forever king. My point is that if the high-end regional 18U AA leagues (PAHL included) want to remain as major players in Tier 2 national landscape…then they have to be proactive in their approach to their league’s growth and stability. Not do the opposite, and react to fear. It’s been pretty clear that there is an outside presence that is only looking to grow. All I’m saying is that I don’t see the CSDHL as being ripe for the picking.

The PAHL could close the gap and seriously compete with the best Tier 2 18U AA leagues…if they evolve just a little and promote their league as a AA developmental league. Instead, the PAHL have apparently built an iron curtain around accessing any information about the member teams and players. You can find the team names and maybe the players names. But that’s where it ends. They keep any and all statistical information zipped up tight. It’s reminiscent of the Soviet Union during the Cold War. IMO, it’s myopic and has it’s whole foundation based on fear-laden principles. I fear that if it doesn’t adapt and keep up with the times…the outside influencers promising greener pastures might entice some people.

There are only a select number of legitimate AAA programs in the area. Unfortunately, it appears that there are also some programs that “want” to have a competitive AAA squad; but the coaches don’t have the talent that comes with the cost associated with the program. The one thing that the AAA local programs is do well is hold the players accountable and do demand hard work throughout the season. Like I said, they want to have a AAA team that is competitive with other regional/state/national programs…they just can’t align the talent. SHAHA 18U AAA simply folded when they realized that they wouldn’t be able to adequately replace their lost talent through promotion to higher levels. SHAHA “could” have just ran out a team like their previous years and generate some money and recognition. But it would have become quickly evident that the team would have been a shell of its former and most likely cause player growth stunting, frustration from everyone involved, maybe embarrassment, and all of the negatives that comes with less winning. I actually respect the coaches and organization for recognizing the uphill struggles and just retired their top team.

If we were to eliminate (or neutralize) the names highlighted in this claim and just broaden it with a different location/region where nobody really knows any specifics (i.e. “The Ice Shed in Thunder Bay, ONT” or “The “Cow Castle in Green Bay, WI”), and link it with their local amateur hockey organization…I am sure that I’d be one of many people that would dismiss it as hyperbole, too far-fetched, and absurd to even consider it as having any legitimacy. I’d think, here’s someone that is trying to impress how POd they are with that place and are really making it seem waaay worse than the reality is. But, the sad reality is that it’s 100% true (well, maybe except for the roided out hockey parents…I know nothing thing about that—but I wouldn’t be surprised). What I do know is, Armstrong/Belmont is a “fair play black hole.” If your team name doesn’t begin with the letter “A,” forget about it. I think that they even tax you some FPPs off the top as soon as you enter the rink…just like they did back in the old country as tribute. Seriously, this is the only WPA rink that I have ever seen where the guys wearing stripes actually do think that everyone in the stands came to that rink in order to watch them call penalties…on the road team. It’s like they bait the opposition—especially the unknowing parents—just to instigate verbal aggression the very second anyone from the visiting team sniffles their nose, or squeaks a chirp following their absurdly called penalty. I’ve even seen rookie step-parents get thrown out of there, forced to do the silent walk of shame when they were only doing positive cheering—it was nothing disparaging at all. The parents were by simply cheering on the refs (albeit sarcastically) when the refs called one of their infamous invisible man penalties, or their crowd-pleaser of, “2:00 minor for tripping…over their own blue line”…on their way to the bench. SMH

The PAHL is legitimately strong this season at the 18U AA level. All of the teams you’ve listed are top-50 in Tier 2 (except for North Pittsburgh is just outside of that number). Allegheny’s independent team is included—not their PAHL 18U AA team #1. In fact, the last time I looked, the PAHL’s 8-member 18U AA league is ranked 3rd in the entire country. 4th if you include BEAST and their 35-member league that consists of predominantly AAA Tier 1 teams—not sure why they include this league in the Tier 2 rankings when only 4 teams are classified as T2 AA their huge league. The PAHL is only behind the CSDHL and Minnesota’s MNHP as the top Tier 2 AA league in the nation. Just think what it could have been if Allegheny didn’t abdicate their top team, and the Preds and Icemen AAAs players stayed in the PAHL. The league is by no means a slouch this year. Armstrong has validated themselves as a top Tier 2 team. They’re not just playing the local unmatched teams. Plus, they have already played 45 games thus far, with only 5 regulation losses.

Just think about how bad it might get within the newer, and more recent developing USA hockey markets that are in the south and southwest. They have no idea. It’s great overall for USA Hockey. But, reality is going to be a huge wake up call. Plus, they’re flying several hours, or driving 10+ hours for showcase tournaments…only to find they spend hundreds of $ to play the same kind of teams they got their teeth kicked in from last weekend.

You’re mostly right. There was the 2020-2021 season that Canon Mac won the regular season AAA. But, that must have been their culmination; as it’s been the opposite (record-wise) since then.

I’m not surprised that you include 7 schools in 3A. Seneca Valley is separating themselves a bit from the pack. You could almost do a 6-way tie for 2nd place. It’s too bad Canon Mac doesn’t have a competitive squad this year. Did anyone see that Big Macs vs Peters Twp game this week? I thought that the benches were going to jump on the ice. It’s great that the rivalry games get amped up.

Reminds me of the show, “Shorsey” on Hulu. It’s essentially 2 seasons of Canadian senior hockey players telling one-liners and your mom jokes. Kinda entertaining. Not for everyone. But definitely has its moments.

I’m sorry to see this. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the opportunity to meet or know Mr Moloney. From my understanding, he had a lifelong passion for the game—and especially the goaltending position. He was able to continuously carve out his own, self-made hockey career throughout Western Pennsylvania in several roles that were mostly thankless by any measure of recognition. He was one of the few people that had an energizing hockey aura about him that never faded. He had a hockey playing career that was legitimately enviable and rather trailblazing during a time when Pittsburgh’s youth/minor developmental hockey was nothing compared with what it is today. For any kid with an ounce of athleticism that did not play football in Pittsburgh during the Steelers dynasty in the 1970s (and through the mid-1980s) was unheard of. Not only that, but there was no precedent for a hockey path in or out of Pittsburgh. Sean made his own path from Pittsburgh and made it into playing Canadian Junior A with no blueprint, or no hockey advisors that had connections all over North America that could spread his name. He did it from day 1, and he continued his passion of the game way past the point that most athletes would give up. Here’s a little more information about his story that most people wouldn’t know. https://thehockeywriters.com/sean-moloney-an-incredible-journey/

The High School Goalie situation is definitely a wildcard enigma that gets re-dealt each year. It’s literally the luck of the draw and can change drastically from year-to-year and with each graduating class. The position is pretty much predetermined and must be committed to at such a young age. I’m assuming that most organizations are similar to SHAHA in that they want a dedicated, goalie-only player to fill that position from the first year of Squirts. That’s a big commitment and ask by a kid (and his/her family) to make up his/her mind about the position at 8-9 years old. A lot of variables can influence changes each year; and skaters occasionally reevaluate themselves and make the switch to goalie later in minor hockey. It can become quickly apparent what the number of goalies each PIHL high school will reasonably project to have by their 6th grade. That number can whittle down by high school…but it normally only goes down in number as high school progresses. Rarely do you see a progressive increase in the grade-to-grade goalie depth chart number. Meaning, if your school has two 9th grade goalies one year, that number is most likely not going to jump up to three (+) goalies for their 10th grade year. If anything, that early 8-9th grade goalie depth chart will decrease once their senior year is realized. The majority of Western Pennsylvania’s HS hockey programs are legitimately re-stocked with their own, locally produced in-school district student athletes…therefore, it can unfortunately go from “feast” to “famine” rather abruptly. Peters Twp went from having 4 Senior goalies (plus several other underclassman goalies) just three short seasons ago on the varsity squad…they literally could not produce enough ice time for their goalies due to the gluttony of the position in the high school system…to now swinging closer to the polar opposite. The high school goalie wildcard is the one position that can influence everything.

I remember when they tried it at the NHL/Professional level and it was resoundingly rejected. It was supposed to speed up the game and increase odd-man rushes…which would have been a 180° turn from the dump-and-chase, left-wing lock that bogged down any odd man breaks and seized up any real scoring opportunities. Sometimes the intent of the rule has the opposite repercussions. In this case, it increased the unnecessary stoppages by having inadvertent offsides and basically did the opposite. At least the NHL recognized it and resolved it the following year.

The automatic offsides is the worst rule change/adoption that I can honestly ever remember. Plus, it’s never been changed/modified after it’s clearly become unnecessary. I get it for the younger players who are learning the rules. But, when you’re 14+ years old and understand the rule of offside…it’s frustrating to see an inadvertent deflection barely cross the blue line into the attacking zone only to get called for auto offsides. It’s a waste of time and has ZERO implications on the current flow of the game—EXCEPT—for slowing the game down unnecessarily.

But, yet…I’m assuming that they’re still actively recording the statistics. Only, they don’t want to go through the trouble of making them public. It might make someone upset if they see that Johnny got a hat trick, but only got credited for 2 goals. I wonder if anyone has given a preemptive thought about drafting a paragraph or two into their bylaws that would address these concerns over upsetting a/some parent(s). Or, perhaps simply make a link to a PDF addendum that would easily spell out what the PAHLs policies and procedures are for game sheet publication…and how to account for any suspected discrepancies. I know for a fact that other amateur leagues and organizations have at least a basic appeal process that can easily reconcile any errors. It’s really quite basic to continue posting something as simple as a scoresheet. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that nobody has brought into light, demonstrated any qualms, or raised any questions about the accuracy of the game sheets being published up to this point. In my opinion, the PAHL needs to demonstrate that they are a legitimate, appropriately sanctioned USA Hockey Association. It’s really only raising red flags that they are reacting in a reflexive manner when they suddenly remove information as soon as it brought to light. From any outsider’s perspective, it begs the question…are they hiding something? If so, what, and why? Why is it so easy to find the most basic data points that have routinely been collected and published (i.e. game sheets or player statistics) on every other legitimate Amateur Hockey Association in North America? Whereas, the PAHL’s powers that be are blatantly tripping over themselves trying to cover-up, or railroad, or delete, or hide, or remove, or (insert whatever applicable synonym of the word obstruct that you’d prefer to use here) information and obviously denying access of their players’ individual statistics. Have the PAHL politicians really become so blatantly corrupt to the point where they are now playing a shell game of hiding all of the game sheet information? Especially at their highest 18U AA level? It’s absurd, quite frankly. It also wreaks of the unnecessary smell that inevitably occurs with deceitful behavior and the unfortunate deterioration of trust. I’m not saying that this is intentionally occurring here. I’m only pointing out that this is basic human nature and sometimes occurs. Again, I’m not pointing out anyone specifically; nor am I saying that anyone is intentionally performing deceitful acts. The timing is not great. Am I the only person that sees this as a questionable conflict of interest? Or, it could also be perceived as another example of a way to privately manipulate data. The lack of transparency coupled with reactionary and increasingly restrictive behavior is unsettling. At the very least, it raises more questions than anything. Again, my whole point is that the PAHL should be promoting their older (18U AA specifically) players in any way possible that allows the players to gain recognition; and possibly exposure “up” the traditional hockey ladder with higher levels of player development. This in turn, would help to establish the PAHL as a high-end Pittsburgh-based league that successfully develops AA players. Youth minor players would be more inclined to see the PAHLs member teams as a great opportunity to develop as a player and know that they will at least get some “looks” by other higher level clubs and leagues. Unfortunately, to many (not including me), the PAHL is viewed as a relegation league for players that couldn’t make the (sometimes faux) AAA, or the “independent” AA teams. Not knowing that many of the 18U AA PAHL teams actually do, in fact, receive scouting and coaches that occasionally attend their games. It’s not every game, and it’s not all the time…but it does happen (probably a little more frequently this season).

Bush League move…in my opinion…if you’re correct. Disappointing

Just curious as to see if anyone else is mysteriously unable to locate the individual game statistics that the PAHL so graciously provided prior to this past weekend? Its weird how when one clicks on the calendar when multiple games are shown; then clicks on a final score between 2 PAHL teams that played against one another…it becomes readily available that all of the game information is provided. Names, numbers, goals, assists, penalty minutes…goalie win/loss, goalie shots/saves, save % etc, are obviously included on any game prior to the weekend of 1/21/2024 and 1/20/2024. However, when one clicks on the calendar of most recent games…there’s nothing there. At least for me. I just wanted to confirm that I am the only one experiencing this glitch. Please feel free to point out otherwise.

.

Meadville had a dynasty in the mid-1990s. I remember playing up there when they had professional scouts coming for their games and they would pack their barn almost like it was Minnesota HS hockey. The Esmark (Steel City) Stars couldn’t beat that team for years. They had Canadian HS teams come down and lose…and I remember Quebec College Prep School come in and get beat by Meadville. Ryan Smart was a 4th Round NHL Draft Pick straight out of Meadville. They had something going that was incredible for Western Pennsylvania High School hockey.

Just out of curiosity, why do you suggest that the West Virginia schools should play in Class B? Is there even a Class “B?” I know that there’s D2 for the intermingled schools. Wheeling Park’s record is 13-3-0 (2nd place in Class A Blue Division). Wheeling Central Catholic’s record is .500 (6-6-1, 8th place out of 12 schools in the Blue Division). Morgantown is in 1st place in the D2 Blue Division (9-4-0 record). I’m not sure if it’s still the case, but it used to be ruled that because all 3 schools are not in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, they don’t qualify for the postseason tournament. So, they don’t affect the Penguins Cup playoffs or the State Championship game. If anyone in Class “A” should be moved, it’s Bishop Canevin…they should be promoted up to a higher class as they have a regular season record of 44-2-1 in the last 3 seasons. I’m not exactly sure why they’re in D2–probably because they have a co-op squad; but so does Wheeling Central Catholic, or any private school or parochial school…especially on the eastern side of the Commonwealth). Regardless, what you’re suggesting is that the 3 West Virginia schools should be in Class B? Is there a reason other than a mismatch of competitive balance?

Just for comparison purposes. The CSDHL has 14 teams total; 10 of which are top-50 in the nation (5 are top-10). They are obvious about promoting their league and members in such a way that leaves no doubt that the CSDHL is the #1 Tier 2 AA Developmental league are in the USA. You can easily find the league teams (it’s literally in their MHR names), the league/team website, teams/organizations within their website…and access everything applicable from an outsider’s perspective. The CSDHL only has 14 members, but outranks the other 188 “Independent” teams (as if they were their own mega-league) that are represented by any statistical measure. The CSDHL has the most Top-50 (10), most Top-10 (5), even all 3 of the Top-3 teams are in their league. The beautiful thing about is that they promote attention. They want their players to get promoted to higher levels. That’s how they get high-end players. They don’t fear getting poached by “Independent” teams. They can show hard data that suggests that their players are better off being in their league and on their member teams. Just to compare the PAHL, there are 8 member teams in the U18 AA level. 4 of which are top-50. Currently, ONE team (Armstrong Arrows) is Top 6 in the national rankings—this takes into account all of the 243 Tier 2 teams. Out of the legitimate AA leagues in the country (I don’t include AHF, as it is a 31-“member” cluster of (you-know-what) independent clubs that are trying to dress up as a league); the PAHL is ranked THIRD—just behind the CSDHL and the 9 team Minnesota Tier 2 AA league that represent the most top-50 teams in the national rankings. That is honestly really great company to be included with. We have Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey’s 18 U AA hockey league in the same sentence as Minnesota’s and the best AA league that Michigan/Chicago provide. They all promote their organizations and players. They don’t hide them. My overall point is that the PAHL is doing itself and players a major disservice by not making their players’ statistical information readily accessible and promoted, in my opinion. It would only enrich their player development and attract the best AA players to want to come and play for a team/league that is getting attention. Show that the PAHL produces T2 National Champions and their players go on to bigger things. .Sorry for the lack of brevity. Hockeyisgreat made me think that someone high in the PAHL might see this thread and re-consider their restricted access approach; and move toward a promoting their players (at least for the U18 AA level, and even U16 AA level)

Yes! The CSDHL is the best AA Tier 2 league in the nation. In fact, they promote their teams and players and embrace their role as a “Developmental AA League.” It literally says it in their name…The Central States Developmental Hockey League. They’re not trying to hide their players. I’d argue that one of the reasons why they’re the best AA league because they’re attracting players that know they’re going to get looked at get. The CSDHL is not necessarily a terminal last stop “End of the Road League.”

You had me up until the “spreadsheet and a couple of hours time” part. I guess that I can understand the fear of independent teams poaching players; but only up to a certain age point and they definitely should be publicizing the U18 level…especially the AA. The majority of the U18 AA players are in their last year anyways. There’s nobody to retain. It’s got to be only hurting whatever chance of advancement that the 18UAA kids might have. I mean, there’s at least a few really good PAHL AA teams that are nationally ranked high. Armstrong Arrows are currently ranked #5 in the Nation for Tier 2 and are beating legitimate AAA teams. The Pittsburgh Predators AA team is ranked higher that their AAA team and it’s not even that close. The Steel City Ice Renegades won the Tier 2 National Championship a couple of years ago (although I think that was 16UAA). I’d think that the PAHL would want to show that they are developing players that get promoted past their AA level (even if’s a lower level Junior league); not the other way around. IMO, it would help keep the independent (dare I say faux) AAA teams away from poaching players if the PAHL can show that their best teams in the highest divisions are getting national recognition and visibility of their players from higher levels. I mean, the PAHL has a U18 AA team in their league that is superior to the same organization’s “other” Independent U18 AAA. What more evidence do they need?

Id like to piggyback a question if anyone knows; why doesn’t the PAHL provide their league with individual statistics in aggregate compilation on their website? The PIHL does, and it’s essentially the same format of SportsEngine as PAHL. For instance, say I wanted to look up and compare the goalies in PIHL. It’s easy to find each division and compare: Games Played, Minutes Played, SOG, SVs, Goals Against Average, Save %…you can even see their PIMs and Assists under the separate “skater” category in PIHL. You can separate it by each division, or do the whole overall Varsity or JV league-wide comparison. Same thing with skaters statistics. But the only statistics that you can find on PAHL for goalies is the number of Games Played. That’s it. No Goals Against Average, no Save Percentage, no W-L-T record. In this day and age, it seems weird to not provide the running statistical total…especially for the top-end AA teams.