Saucey

That stinks. Hockey is so expensive as it is.

I've observed the exact opposite. Many kids I know who play up develop more in PAHL. A top AA player can and does do well up. An entire rising BY playing AA frequently struggles and I think is better as an A Major team if you are going to do it.. But the next year, they tend to be a dominant team at AA. But it also depends on the kid. And size. And if the birth year team is uneven talent, or playing over their heads as a faux AAA team, that is definitely not better. I don't see Icemen improving players. The kids end their season at the same level. When BY trumps talent, some weaker players get put on the team sometimes. It is entirely illogical to play 'AAA' hockey when it is over the team's head. That's not development. It makes no sense to me to play at that level with a roster with some AA players all the way down to low level players and call that superior to a mixed team of similar skill playing in a division of similar level teams, all in the name of playing 'BY'. And I know plenty who were disillusioned with Icemen. The rosters change quite a bit each year. Parents get to decide, ultimately. There will always be an Icemen team of some sort for the disgruntled and disillusioned.

No. Before this BY thing caught on, your top team was usually BY by default, the older kids usually do better than the rising ones in tryouts, with some exceptions. When people talk about BY, they want the same age to be the rising age group, too. Play with the same kids each year, keep them together regardless of how each kid develops, etc. However, when you have a low BY, which the 05s have been since day 1, then your top team may not be all the same BY. There are simply not enough AA 05s playing around here. Even AAA has historically been weak. 07s are also a low BY. I bet this pandemic is going to cause another year or two of low BY, so the issue is not going away. There are probably going to be two teams made up of all 05s in AA this coming season. That's how low the numbers are. It just doesn't work in PAHL because Western PA is not a large enough hockey market to have the numbers of similarly skilled kids. PAHL can't even do it well for the one year they tell programs to do a minor BY team, because the rural programs struggle to field AA without mixing the ages. (Bantam) Can you tell I hate BY? But yes, parents become convinced that is the way to go.

I don't think you meant to ask me, yes?

Wholeheartedly agree. Just don't have the numbers around here. Field your best team and be done with it.

Once a super star, always a super star.

My two oldest, (ages 7 and 9) ???

I don't think that team is playing PAHL this year, independent schedule of some sort. Makes sense, they played AA 16u last year. I don't know cost differences.

16uAA last year had a fairly significant drop from top half to bottom. That's what people are complaining about regarding PAHL competition. Halt of a crap schedule at that level stinks. I don't think it would be good to have a 16u minor AA division this year because the 2005 BY is so low. Plus, a lot of those 06 kids already exited PAHL for greener faux pastures. Not that PAHL ever did that for midgets before, but it would be crappy to announce that now after teams have been formed. If you have an 06 BY team and you want to play PAHL you have to decide whether to play AA or A Major. Depending on the team's talent level and the small 05 numbers, a decent 06 team would be ok in AA. A lot of them are starting to play school hockey with older kids anyway. Getting appropriate tournaments would stink, potentially, as directors will want to put you in AA. This is why BY around here causes such headaches.

Need to be pushed. Competition from out of town is better. Weak reason, one of those 'save face' reasons since the teams being played aren't ranked better or anything.

Dude, you did it wrong. You crushed his dreams of skating with the Cup. Harder courses in school instead of faux AAA? Crazy you.

Expand the territory where you play to cut down on the times you play a team. Add teams from Ohio, etc. Then that gives people 'better competition' that they are looking for.

I don't disagree in theory but I think a lot of people want the extra A. They will claim that they don't, that they want the non parent coaches et al. It gives a way to save face. So even if PAHL did that across the board, still would have the faux organizations. Because the big PAHL organizations are doing these things, most of them.

Great points. But parents of even very low skilled players demand travel. Again, we have a very parent driven market. It gets hard for organizations to say no when everyone else provides what parents demand. And as I hear from all the AAA people...if parents want to pay for their in house player to travel to State College or what ever, who am I to tell them that probably isn't great for them developmentally, that those dollars might be better spent on individual skating lessons? (Yes, that's sarcasm.) I think our market is currently operating on wishful thinking. Wishing we were a bigger market and operating just like the big markets do, with BY teams, loads of AAA options, etc. Instead of looking at what we have (dad coaches without much hockey experience, for example) and trying to build from there (train dad coaches until the kids who played return to coach) to get to those levels. You want more ice time? Do we want that ice time to come at the expense of cutting kids? Our area doesn't have the ice rinks like other rinks do. We don't have private ODRs due to weather. And do parents want to pay more at those young ages? Do they want all that time? Do the kids? I have pretty good players. They weren't on top teams at squirts or on the ice more than twice a week for mites. They were not interested in more practice, either. ? They didn't do privates until bantam, when they asked for them. More isn't always necessary so long as the ice touches you do get are quality, which it sounds like doesn't always happen in many organizations, particularly at lower levels. My kids caught up when they wanted to. But we do have deck rinks. Maybe adjust in that sense, in those ways. I'd like this area to look at what we have and build from there. Not pretend to 150 AAA players at each level or what ever. I think that holds our market back. And what is the end goal? Should it be to have everyone running around trying to chase the dream when that is so rare, or should it be fun and development for all who want to play, regardless of how good that child may be? Right now it's the chasers driving the market, to the detriment of the majority,I think.

Those guys don't stick around long in my experience. Driven out by crazy parents. Young guys return from D1, want to give back only to find much better ways to spend their time after a year or two of being crapped on. Again, too many people are over the top awful. It's unfortunate, the young guys are frequently tremendously beneficial to the game and kids, and that is a shame to lose them. I also know plenty good of the much maligned dad coaches. There is much more to coaching than having played at a high level. Another narrative this board pushes, as well as those pushing the sale of the extra A. But it is better to have experience once you get to the older levels. So long as you have someone who knows what they are doing to lead to the younger program who passes that on to parent helpers, you can develop good dad coaches. But I've mentioned before...I think that development is being sorely neglected around here, with all resources going to top teams and less and less attention being paid to developing those young players who could be very good once they hit puberty. And new coaches get very little help to really learn, so it not really fair to crap on the volunteer dad WHO MAY HAVE STEPPED UP when no else would. USA Hockey could do a heck of a better job to provide useful training instead of regurgitating the same stuff every year.

A lot of them do figure it out on their own. At age 16. And quit the grind of travel hockey. When they look at my hockey rankings and figure out what their parents were blind to. I've never suggested to my kid to quit dreaming. But I have told him what he would need to do to get there and waited to see what he would do. I mean, I keep hearing this...I don't want to kill my kids dream....I don't even understand that. Don't they all say they want to be rock stars or what ever when they are in kindergarten? Does that mean that we as parents are obligated to fund that, regardless of talent and if it is a realistic goal? I think my income must be in a much lower bracket than most of the people posting here. ?

Oh ya, I'm all about identifying the ten year old NHLer. ? Lol. Play local when young. Play where you feel they will develop, which is getting harder as programs put all their resources in top teams these days. Everyone says dad coaches stink and PPE doesn't develop, so I don't know where to tell you. Not around here, right? I am being a little sarcastic but there is also a lot of truth in taking your kid elsewhere if you truly think your kid has what it takes. Go ahead and mortgage your house and future for their all star career. Elite programs were not labeled elite (and technically still aren't until they can compete for a national title) until recently. They hit 14, then think about talking to someone who knows about advancing about what to do. Billeting out of state. And it may be a crap attitude, but the fact of the matter is that Mid Am, not just Western Pa, puts up about one or two kids on the USA U16 every year. So maybe one Pens kid. Think about that. Go look at the past USA rosters. Even the people that I know who 'made it' ...played college D1, etc....they aren't making much money now or are doing very little with hockey. They are really good hockey players. So what is the point of this rat race people insist on jumping on? Make sure they do well in school. Keep hockey focused on fun over elite. Give them something that will provide joy, comraderie and exercise the rest of their life. Compete and work, yes. But stop the mad chasing of the dream. And the bad mouthing and the back stabbing. People are so rotten in the name of their kid...and then for most...it's over at age 16. Most exit playing travel hockey entirely. Is it all worth it for that? You want to advance...Go to a legit prep school. Get on and play with the top teams in Michigan. Billet your teenager. They hang there, you have a chance. If top programs aren't looking at your kid..... yeah, hang it up. Because what I see people doing in the name of whatever is just insane.

Why? Don't they all promise the same thing for extra money?

Once you hit midget years, they started recruiting out of state. With Excel, that gives the ability to do it at a younger age. The elite come from all over the world, not just Western Pa. It's not like it is unique to the Pens. As to the development...come on. I get being bitter if that was the sales pitch, but that is all of these freaking programs. A superstar at ten isn't necessarily a super star at 16. And no matter how much money you throw at a kid, if he isn't a natural athlete to begin with, big and internally motivated, he or she is not likely to become elite. And it doesn't matter how much all of this is pointed out to a parent. They will sign their kid up. And then go down the line to the any other team with the extra A till they land somewhere, no matter the quality of the program. The best chance to go anywhere in hockey is not to play around here, anyway. It is getting better, but easier to break in if you go to a bigger hockey market. If you don't stick out there, then you can bring the child back. I think it was better when no one called the mites elite. I would rather see a community based system until midgets. Play at the rink closest to you and then be recruited. Or any other program. It's not like PPE has cornered the market around here on this kind of thing.

What's the definition of competitive contact??

'Most officials didn't call it that way' is a big one. Most officials around here do not call 'there must be a play for the puck before hitting'. If the officials aren't on board, forget it and it's just confusing for everyone. And there is a shortage, so they've got the power.

The same. What happened in Pittsburgh with the sale of 'elite' status to parents happened all over with youth sports. It would have come in some form or another.

Ah. So is that rule an effort to reflect the realities of programs and ice scheduling, you think? That would make sense.

Division placements should be better next season. Teams pretty much got whatever they asked for due to COVID and no placement games.