Saucey

At the risk of The King coming for me, since my opinion is always wrong...I would say it depends on your kid's skill level and where you want to play. The fact is, PAHL is not set up for BY, nor should it be. Western PA does not have the numbers to support it at this time, as has been said over and over here. The top team for most big organizations is usually BY. If your kid is trying out at a big organization and is a AA player, most likely that will be default BY team, maybe a few exceptional younger kids sprinkled in here and there.

If you are looking at one of the independent teams, are you able to judge if the kids are at a similar level? There are some around having some success. 

Both my kids are in low number BY so this has never really been an option for them, and I really have a hard time understanding the fascination with doing it. Maybe take a look at the coach's kid on that team....what is that kid's skill level? Does he seem to lag behind the rest a bit? Sometimes, not always, that is the primary purpose of doing that, because if it were a mixed BY, that child and a few others would likely not be on that team, and goodness what a tragedy if those children played in a lower division. 

Mixed BY has been a good experience for us, with teams formed based on skill. They liked playing with different kids each year. Being exposed to different coaches. For the good athlete (and some children, not all), having the more experienced players pushes them and they grow more than they would have on a BY team. I have seen bottom players in the younger BY get left in the dust over the course of a season, so I would say for them, it was not good developmentally. That child may have been better off playing at a lower level. Those bubble children are always hard.

The issue with BY teams around here is that you can see a much bigger range of skill from top to bottom, making it hard to compete. And if they get placed in a division with mostly older BY, they get slaughtered.

So, in short, it depends on your kid. Don't let coaches tell you how it is so fantastic that the kids stay together....kids don't develop at the same pace. You should expect that some may come and go over time based on skill, growth spurts, etc. If the tryout is looking for skill, you shouldn't see the same kids every year. Keeping them together purely because of age, it's just not good developmentally. And... parents tend to look for greener pastures. Don't do it just to keep kids together, that can't be guaranteed by anyone.

It's an art, not a science. Some years your kid is going to have a good year, others not so much. Look for a program that is interested in development at all of its levels, not just top teams. More likely to find that your kid will be placed right and will be developed, whatever his skill.

36 minutes ago, Theroadtobeerleague said:

Preds 05 and PPE Black are not AAA.  Try to look up their combined records this season can top 25 AAA teams. You can’t, because neither has played any.  No western PA 2005 AA team is ranked in top 20.  Without a doubt this is a weak birth year. There might be 2 or 3 players in this birth year that get an invite to USA Hockey 15 Camp. 

Ya, that is the first time I ever heard anyone claim 05 is strong. Many of the PAHL AA teams, including the bigger programs, have a good number of  06s. That should tell you enough about that BY. 

From Urban Dictionary:

Quit feeding the troll everyone.

45 minutes ago, PeterThePuck said:

Yes there will be a 05 team Mt Lebo AAA keeping the birth years together can’t do that in AA @ U 15

Heard that 04 Mt Lebo AAA team kids leaving heading towards the Preds organization AAA U 16.

I think you meant this under a different heading.

36 minutes ago, The King said:

Ok so you’ve made over 150 posts here and you are claiming that you’re under the impression that clubs field AAA teams becomes there are no other AAA in town to play? Come on man. Go back and read the multitude of posts relating to the very subject you’re claiming to be confused about if you really want the answer. Otherwise, you’re beating a dead horse in an otherwise tired subject thread. 

Whatever dude. They are a AA team supposedly talking about playing AAA. I thought teams go AAA because you think you got too good for AA so you are leaving to play a AAA schedule. If they aren't dominating AA, why go independent? So ya, I don't get it. Mt Lebo is a good program. That 04 team was very good, I understand them looking for other teams outside of PAHL. The 05 team, not the same. 

They didn't dominate PAHL this year. There was a three way tie in wins for second, third and fourth place, suggesting good local competition. Why not continue to play PAHL? I always thought that teams did that AAA route because there was no one locally to play, whether accurate or not. And those three teams were competitive with the first place team going by the scores. I don't get it, if that is the plan.

2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Aka the faux-AAA market.

Yeah, the teams trying to field the extra A seem to benefit more when Elite sheds rather than PAHL. Some will come back. A decent number went to NP last year instead of playing black.

It will be interesting to see what happens to PAHL girls. There just aren't enough girls around here yet to support all these teams. It is growing, but not enough yet to support all of this. I thought PPE girls kept the younger ages as tournament/partial schedule teams because there are not enough girls teams to play games against at those ages. Something suddenly change for next year? I think some girls added other teams to get more games. This full schedule may just be more practice time.

1 hour ago, The King said:

Interesting you bemoan labeling yet your entire post was mocking kids that “return to PAHL”. Your limited experience with maybe 1 or 2 players that previously played Tier 1 is not an adequate sample size to make a judgement. I’m basing this off of your previous posts that clearly show a limited knowledge of the wider scope of the hockey world. Also, let’s limit the criticism of coaches from any team. I have criticized coaches for limited abilities but I also have the experience that allows me to make an informed evaluation. The blanket statements about Tier 1 players “frequently” believing they’re too good for your kid only show insecurity. And saying coaches of the teams are not the ones to ask to evaluate your player but to ask parents? That shows a very flawed way of thinking and shows that you’re more than likely one of the parents that coaches hate. Coaches will cut kids based on the parents. Maybe you think it’s wrong, but nobody should be forced to take a player of the parents are impossible and constantly causing problems. 
 

Maybe just let people make their own decisions. Plenty of coaches below Tier 1 or 2 waste people’s money. If you don’t provide quality training with the resources available, teach the game properly, play down levels to ensure success, etc, you’re not providing value. Your personal failings aren’t guaranteed for everyone else. 
 

just my opinion

My kids have also played with some kids who returned to PAHL from AAA and were just fine. You make some valid points, some had nightmare parents or the kid was, and yes, I don't think you should get to play a team sport if you don't play with the team, so if that was the reason for the cut, fine. Some simply weren't a AAA player to begin with, or didn't remain one.

I find it interesting that you assume personal failings on my part when you know nothing about me, but whatever. That is your MO, to attack personally when you disagree. At least you did it in a more constructive manner this time, so kudos. So I think it is fair to point out that you were once associated with an independent program trying to play AAA, yes? So I have bias, you have that bias. And you believe that USA hockey is all a scam and a conspiracy, as you like to point out. We are all suckers to you. 

Fine to let people make their own decisions. I have no problems with parents. They want what is best for their child. We are programmed that way. People in support of all these AAA teams floating around always say, it's their money. People should be able to spend their money however they want.

But frequently it isn't a level playing field when these decisions are made. I do have a problem with people who just want to field teams, people who know better and take advantage. I don't think that is buyer beware...if the parents don't know hockey and the person recruiting does, that is not a level playing field. Undoubtedly, this happens. People taking advantage of the parents' desire to believe their child is the best and the rest of the world doesn't see it. For money. Sometimes so the recruiting coach's kid gets a AAA team. How many of these independent programs we have floating around here began for one kid? How many times where we see teams that don't have enough AAA talent to field one, but move forward anyway, filling in with who they can? I just have a hard time trusting the people who want my money telling me my kid is elite and think trying to find someone with no skin in the game to evaluate your kid is better.  

You get crap training in PAHL, at least it wasn't part of a con where you are being told your kid is elite, and you spent a lot less there. Same cycle repeats over and over. There's always a new crop of squirt parents the next year.

I have no problem with people wanting to play AAA hockey. But can't we wait until they are older to label them that way? Wait to treat them like mini pro adults? Wait to have them treat a sport like a job? How many kids are there who are actually elite?

Just my opinion.

11 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Not saying it never happens but 99% of the time if you have been around PAHL for a year or more someone would approach you (your parents) about trying out for a AAA team If you are standing out enough to look that good. Exception might be "AAA" squirt year 1. I doubt many kids show up cold turkey and make a team.

Just because someone approaches you doesn't mean your kid is AAA talent. Sometimes the team needs to fill a roster. A lot of times. I know kids on the AAA teams that have never made a AA roster in PAHL. And they've tried out at multiple programs over the years. I don't think all of those programs are misjudging that badly. Mom and dad are misjudging badly and there is someone happy to take their money.

If your kid is dominating PAHL AA and seems to need more to progress, then start thinking about AAA. And remember that dominating as a squirt is not the same as dominating as a Bantam. The coaches of these faux AAA teams are not the ones to ask. Again, they may need to fill a roster. People that have no skin in the game are better. People in your current program that have older kids playing in AA or AAA. People who evaluate your kid in your program. The person you take privates from. In fact, these people may begin to express interest in working with your child because they see something more in him or her.

I see the kids who get cut from the AAA programs later. Frequently, in their head they are elite and always will be. So they are nightmares if they come back to PAHL. So much better than their teammates, PAHL is beneath them. They make sure everyone knows it. They don't play a team game, because everyone sucks but them. Or they exit hockey all together because they thought they were going to the show and now see no more reason to play. Or got burned out.

I think we do a lot more harm than good labeling young kids as elite sometimes.

Does anyone really care at this point?  

You need to have ex pros coach your 2009s to be a draw these days. ? I don't think Dean and Fritz have much of a connection to parents coming in. And they still have that awful rink, which has improved but is still awful.

7 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

I've seen him work with kids, looks like  he really knows his shit and gets them going. That said, when I've been around, he seems like he's usually working with older kids- maybe a bit intense for squirt or peewee? I only mention it because he seems like a great coach. But if he coaches young kids (that just want to play hockey, or who are there because their parents make them) like the older kids, I could see where maybe they'd get burned out after so much of it? Again, by all accounts he's very good, and I only mention it because as much as I've thought about signing mine up for one of his summer camps, I've also considered 14 or 15 to maybe be a more appropriate age for that type of training? But I don't really know, or any know nobody to ask who's had that experience with a 12 or under kid. 

I can't speak to the younger ages but my boy is the age range you mentioned got a lot out of it. I do know a few younger kids who play D who liked his camp. Bairel just published their programming for the summer, Yuri runs his Interel out of different rinks around town, I also know people who liked what the Pens have to offer.

38 minutes ago, miked said:

@Hockeyaintathang

find an organization that isn't a hassle to get to

LOL, you ARE new to the area. Welcome to PGH where anywhere you go takes between 20 minutes to 2 hours to get to and you can almost never go the same way back as whence you came. and never ever forget the golden rule, You can't get there from here. 

?

 

Actually, if you live near the rink you've picked as your home organization, it's not so bad. It's only when you need to go through a tunnel or cross a bridge, which of course, we all do, living in Pittsburgh, that you start to have issues. ?

Genesis won 16u over the Pittsburgh Predators 3 to 0.

North Pittsburgh won 14u 3 to 1 over the Blazers.

Allegheny Badgers won 12u in double OT. That was a great division with lots of good competition.

I don't know what happened for 10u, couldn't find any results.

What are you talking about, that's the perfect target age for parents living the dream. 

37 minutes ago, Blackice said:

As a parent on that ill-fated 07 SCIR team, we had an over enthusiastic coach/dad who pushed for AA. I don’t think it was parent driven. It was my understanding we were placed in A major black and he petitioned to have us moved up to AA. I think we went 1-19 in AA. Not a fun year! 
 

Back to the original topic, we were really frustrated with how the SCIR board handled the team’s situation when said coach left in the middle of the season, especially for how much the fees are there. Until that point we were generally happy with SCIR (and our younger son still plays in their well-run ADM program).  
 

I think your experience with most local programs will depend a whole lot on the coaches (and to a lesser extent, parents) on the team. It’s only at “real” AAA where you will find consistent, professional coaching at *every* level.

I am sorry for your boy's experience. That scenario happens all over, regardless of how the rising BY ended up in AA. (Coach, parents, PAHL.) I remember hearing another organization's coach berating his young team because they couldn't beat my kid's older team, since my kids' team was horrible, in his opinion. It was terrible to hear, wasn't their fault. A year when they are young sometimes makes a huge difference in skill, not to mention size differences. Beware the sale of the BY model. Pittsburgh's market is not Michigan or Canada. They have the numbers to put similar talent, same BY. It's growing, but until all the organizations can field similar talent in one BY, it's like banging your head against the wall to put those teams together, and if your organization did it, how many others managed? People who push for that, someone mentioned, you have to be a little leery of. Maybe because their kid wouldn't play in AA otherwise, so they know they can boot the older kid down who would have normally been on Team 2 mixed BY. 

Kids develop at different rates. ?‍♂️ Shocker, but some of the ten year olds your kid plays with now might get better than your kid at 12, and vice versa. There is nothing wrong with that, there are good hockey experiences around here at all levels, and it's a sport worth playing even if you are not AA or AAA or whatever. To assume kids should all stay together because all their Moms and Dads got it on that year may not help some of them develop in the long run.

You are right about the coaches and team make up. Some organizations do a better job of putting good coaches at all levels than others, but it sure is a tough job for an unpaid one.

On 2/3/2020 at 8:47 AM, bender05 said:

Last year their 09 Vengeance did well in AA division but this year the 2010 Vengeance is really struggling in the 2009 AA division 

That's my point, that rising year by shouldn't be playing AA except in Bantam, where it is specifically set up to do so and again I feel that is debatable since the small organizations can't always field a pure by team. Again, PAHL is not set up for by. You are going to do it, you have to try for A Major Black. They get beat up on all year by the older kids, you don't keep them the next year. But the organizations feel compelled to offer them because that is what parents want.  My boys have gained a lot playing on mixed by teams over the years, there is something to be said from learning from your peers and having an older player or two pushing you.

16 hours ago, HSFBLJ said:

14 u = 2005 BY 

always a mess

Ain't that the truth.

8 hours ago, OrrWhat said:

I don’t think that WPA teams are “selected.”  You just signup!  Has nothing to do with rankings.

This. It's not advertised well by PAHL. For Western PA, at the scheduling meeting preseason, Darcee asks AA teams who is interested. If you don't know what it is, a coach could be taken off guard. Not sure how the selection goes from there or how many teams signal their interest, but I wasn't under the impression that there is a stampede of teams wanting to do it.  I think I've seen it mentioned in PAHL meeting notes, too, so your organization's liason may have been told to send word back to the AA coaches that they are to tell PAHL if interested. Not everyone wants to do a tournament at this time or travel east/west. For 14u, Allegheny's ranking may not be great in comparison to the other teams, but they have improved a lot over the season as reflected by recent scores and competitive games, so they very well could be a sleeper team, which would be fun. That age group tended to have its good games and bad games and be a little inconsistent in general this season, as reflected by the standings. Tight race to make the playoffs. MHR isn't the be all end all, but it is helpful.

And at 16u...that is when tournaments seem to become very dicey as the number of kids playing travel hockey seems to significantly diminish as they exit the sport, so who knows what the interest level was.

I remember this question being asked on this board by a coach from the East of the state at the beginning of the season, and it seemed there is a different selection process out there. Here, your AA coaches need to have it on their radar right from the beginning. If it is the year where your age group has to go East, I bet some coaches don't want to use it as a travel tourney.

My oldest did it once, and both my kids are doing it this year. I wasn't under the impression that teams are knocking down PAHL's door to do it, so there might not be much 'selection'. PAHL pays for half of it, so there should be interest, I would think. It's an odd time of year, and I don't know what interest there is on either side of the state to travel.

It is a fun concept...you only play teams from the other side of the state, so it's not like you travel far to play the Foxes, which I hate when you meet a local team at a travel tourney. So it is ok to root for your fellow PAHL teams to beat those Eastern teams. ?

PAHL could do a much better job of advertising it and talking it up. I've seen a lot of bewildered faces at the scheduling meeting when she asks. And is it even mentioned on the website?

Just now, BACKCHECKING said:

Correct me if i am wrong,

I was told the Renegades have a AA10s BY team playing a AA 09BY schedule?

I don't know for sure, but it is possible to have two BY teams in the same division because again, PAHL is only set up for BY at Bantam. The younger team is at risk of being misplaced...they see oh, this team has a bunch of AAs and sticks the younger AA in AA, where they get slaughtered by all the other older BY teams. I think a few organizations caught it this year and got the younger BY team moved down into A Major Black.

16 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

What are the deciding factors of playing Birth Year or, say, 12u?

Most AA for every org consist of the oldest BY. Some organizations (NP, Renegades, Foxes) also advertise a BY for the rising kids. (11 year olds in 12u.) The only BY team sanctioned by PAHL is at 13u, to make first year of checking safer, but they still let a certain percentage of the older BY on because not every organization can actually field pure BY teams. (Shooting any safety argument in the foot since the 13 year olds are still facing 14 year olds on the ice.) As a result, at bantam there is an AA major and AA minor divisions. You get an uneven mess imo for play for BY. The BY teams frequently get misplaced by PAHL, again because it is not set up in PAHL to accommodate BY.

Some people advocate for BY to 'keep kids together' from year to year but there is no guarantee kids will stay.

It depends on the organization, if they are fielding that. Supposed to be the best in that year. 

The Director of Hockey Ops is the place to start with most organizations, he or she can try to get an idea of what level your kid may play and then give an idea about next season. You can ask when practice slots may be, because the programs should have an idea of what ice they will have. And you can watch a practice or two on live barn.

As far as middle school goes, FYI depending on the size of your school district, he may not make it this year if he is a 7th grader. PIHL limits the number of the younger kids on the team. 

37 minutes ago, Rinkshrink01 said:

I have been around Pgh hockey for most of my adult life... seen players make it and advance on and have success at the next levels... Sam Lafferty out of Mid state is the latest example that we can produce talent locally.  How many more Sam Lafferty's are out there that never make it because Pgh hockey is broken and people don't want to send their kids away when they are 15&16.  Here is what is wrong with Pgh hockey and how to fix it... first a couple of facts:

1. Pens Elite has no interest in promoting local players only paying for their practice facility and having a place for pens and friends to play. So they should be totally left out of any discussion moving forward.  In two years there will be basically no local players on their Elite team rosters. The Excel academy prep team is happening and nothing will stop it and many who post on this forum will fall for the sales pitch to help get it off the ground. 

2. Essmark is the only other AAA org that has a proven track record of advancing players on a consistent basis. The 16u / 18u teams remain the best AAA option for local players.

3. Parents and players want this level of hockey locally and we have the players to support it.  Which is clearly evident with the number of independent teams floating around here and in spurts they compete with top side teams but proven unable to do it consistently.  

4. Local hockey administration is Joke and is holding onto the past structure either because they just simply don't know or are reluctant to change because they fear for their job and or income stream. 

5. We have a shortage of ice locally to support the numbers of player playing and the structure needed. 

There is nothing wrong with players and parents seeking out a more competitive level of play and paying the money to play it if they so choose.  People want to play AAA hockey and travel to showcase tournaments in the US and Canada.  I am tiered of hearing how great Pgh AA hockey would be if these players just played PAHL.  Fact is this isn't going away and if it continues to evolve with no direction or structure the kids will be suffering and not having legitimate opportunities to advance to whatever level they want to advance to.  I would also argue that local hockey parents have little or no knowledge about how the structure of hockey works and how players advance.  Many of them still think D1 scholarships are available via the high school route (like football).  The kids all know the deal but man y of these parents revert to what they know and are delusional about their childs future. In my opinion here is the problem with Pgh hockey:

We have no outlet to give teams that want a Tier 1 roster a reasonable path to get it... and when they get it they are forming a schedule from scratch and  have trouble getting the right games.  So many of these teams are playing subpar schedules and the kids are bouncing from team to team as they keep getting disappointed by schedule, coaching, team selection... you name it and many of you have elaborated all these reasons in previous threads... no need to rehash here. 

It's time for PAHL / USA hockey to support AAA hockey at 15u and up levels for those teams that want to play at the level and end this independent nonsense.  Do split season and if a team is over their head move them back to AA and make the second half of the season competitive for the players. Maybe it includes teams in Ohio and southern NY.  If it is viable they may elect to play in it. Also, run the schedule like a tournament weekends so these teams can travel to tournaments and minimize the ice usage across the board.  Make these teams preform to keep their Tier 1 roster.  Have a committee of people who know something about hockey make these decisions either from playing or coaching experience, not a team of grandma's and hockey Dad's who have never played or stepped behind a bench above Pee Wee.  It will take a few years to get this model right but it is time for local hockey management to take their head out of the sand and recognize what is happening here.  I would bet if the Essmark parents had a viable option to play more locally and not travel to Minnesota as much they would explore it.  

When the Pens jumped in with their proposal a few years ago it was designed to enhance their position and we all are seeing the results of that. Local hockey and players will continue to suffer if no adults step up to fix it. 

I agree that Excel as a requirement is going to lead to recruiting with fewer local players at Pens. Soon as that initiative was announced I thought that. Pens are a business. They have to compete with all the other AAA programs that get access to more talent. I really think they should stay out of the lower levels, let those kids develop in PAHL. Kids shouldn't be labeled elite that young, we all know they may not stay there, but frequently, they always think they are and become uncoachable players or exit the sport entirely.

Your ideas are interesting. I think the market is so fractured, with a few too many egos to get it going, it would be difficult to implement. And PAHL's goal is not to create AAA players...I would hate the focus to move from development of all kids to enjoy hockey to just focusing on the top. That is a legit criticism of some of the PAHL teams running these independent teams....no focus on any other level or development from the bottom up starting at a young age.

I would rather see the AAA initative come from USA hockey. And teams are doing this, some of them play PAHL games as a tournament. It ends up being too many games imo, the independent schedule and PAHL. 

Maybe broaden the scope of PAHL at the top tier to include some games with top teams from the surrounding states. I guess that would require PAHL involvement. Some hybrid, where individual teams aren't in charge of scheduling, but not as intensive with a lower number of games than I see some of the independent teams playing. The kids doing this are frequently toast by the end of the season.

I would rather do that then play these silly tournaments, where you hold your breathe to know if the competition will be good, no matter how much research you did.

1 hour ago, The King said:

Is anyone of Yuri’s followers able to give any specifics on why his camp is best? I would think if your relying on the coach to motivate the kid and make him work hard, you might want to ask the kid if he’s still Interested in competing. Most of you would be shocked and disheartened of their answer. From what I have been told, the team he coaches is struggling this season and were hurting for players. Of course that’s not an indictment on his abilities as a skills coach. I just think more specifics would be helpful. And having a skills coach does not ensure success. The players need to have motivation themselves. Most of the time, they reflect the failings of the parent that is pushing them to do what they couldn’t. But allow them to find their way themselves and let the experts teach them, they’ll find their own level. How long has your player been training with Yuri? 

I can only tell you what my kid says, and I don't think it was an option offered as 'best', just an option. He was worked and felt like he learned something. Other kids at the camp gave similar feed back. I know nothing about Yuri beyond that. It's a week long camp. You aren't going to see huge changes in play there, or any camp. I would say the same things about many other camps offered around town.

11 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Put any feelings aside you may have for Yuri as a coach, the guy runs a great summer camp.  When both of my boys were playing each did the week-long camps for 3-4 years straight.  He makes the kids work hard and is not shy at yelling at them if they are not fluffing off.  If you are looking for a hockey centric camp without all of the extra stuff like game rooms or dorm rooms, I highly recommend it.

For people who don't know, Interel is Yuri. The camp was very good.