RJUSHL

A few of these are really well done. South Pittsburgh in particular stands out. I think we take a lot of this information for granted, but if someone is a new hockey parent or has no history with youth hockey, I could see how it could be confusing and a little overwhelming.

This is true but things are changing a bit. Easier now than ever with rankings/video for junior coaches to find the best players, no matter where they are. They want to win above all else. I think these connections matter less and less. Too many jobs on the line to start handing out favors just because you’re buddies with a guy. Money still speaks though. But I guarantee you there is a kid on SHAHA 06 who is being consistently contacted and he’s weighing options and considering the best path forward. A lesser player on the Esmark 06 team isn’t going to have some huge leg up because his coach knows a couple Tier II junior coaches.

Looks like SHAHA is the bigger draw right now for 2006s (midget). Things don’t look good for 2008s either as they enter midget next year.

We'll see if that remains true over the next few years. I think they've lost too much momentum with the younger years for them to just assume that they'll all of a sudden add all these good players at midget. We'll see next year. 2008s will be enter their midget minor year. You really think all of a sudden add a bunch of 08s from the #6 Vengeance (with tons of South Hills kids) or #55 SHAHA (full of South Hills kids) to join a #119 Esmark 08 team in New Ken? I highly doubt it. It's one thing to say that only Esmark and PPE matter at the midgets, but it's another thing completely for it to be actually true. PPE certainly matters. Not so sure Esmark will anymore.

I did leave out 18U. My point was that Esmark is slipping and losing traction with younger BYs and I wanted to get some perspectives about why this is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Esmark is a bad program, they just have some big hurdles to overcome because of their location. As RMU Alum pointed out, there are also some other things they could be doing better. But right now, except at the highest age groups, they are losing out big time to PPE, Vengeance, and surprisingly even SHAHA and Preds for many BYs.

Yea I agree, the idea of playing on a team that practices at PIA, Delmont, and Printscape is pretty crazy. That kind of defeats the purpose as to why Esmark is failing (location the primary reason) at building good teams and falling behind Preds and SHAHA on a consistent basis. Some people seem pretty convinced about the long-rumored second sheet at Printscape. I remain skeptical until someone posts on here that they saw the construction crews staging equipment or working. Also Printscape has the sport court booked up like crazy in the summer months with fishing expos, reptile expos, basketball tournaments, MMA fights, etc. That has to be a big money maker. Only way it makes sense is if they would have it be convertible, with ice for 8 months and sport court during the summer months. Not sure how difficult that is but Printscape is a pretty nice venue and it would make sense to have something like that. But if Printscape does add a second sheet, how much do you think that changes the hockey landscape in the South Hills? I think people on here are right, if they added a second sheet I think Black Bear would start a Tier 1 program out of that rink. It makes so much sense it's almost painfully obvious. May finally have something that can approach PPE in terms of consistent competitiveness if they can sell the South Hills kids on the opportunity and market the thing correctly.

Seems like everyone has been hearing that for a few years now. It would make sense, but I'm skeptical it will happen. Seems like Black Bear just keeps acquiring other rinks instead of investing in their current properties.

I think you would get the best kids. Even though Esmark is kind of failing to get the really good kids (for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread) there are still a lot of kids from the South Hills driving to Cranberry for PPE and to Alpha for the Vengeance. Those two programs generally have much better teams than the AAA SHAHA, Preds, and occasional Lebo AAA teams. You have Pens, Vengeance, and Esmark all lined up across the north of the city, meanwhile it's pretty safe to say that there are more players and more talent in the South Hills. It's for sure deeper. And it's becoming pretty clear that families of the better kids are willing to drive to Cranberry, maybe Harmarville, but not really New Ken anymore. That's the reason SHAHA and Preds have better teams than Esmark. If you give those South Hills families a legit Tier 1 program, PPE would be just fine and it would hurt Vengeance some, but you could finally have a real PPE competitor.

Printscape is a great location with easy access to 79 and 19. And with the new highway it's easy to get out to Robinson/Moon and anywhere west. But there just isn't enough ice time for something like this. South PGH is always limited on the number of teams it can have because of ice time. Lots of school programs play there as well so as soon as the end of September rolls around, there is no extra ice available. Same with Lebo and the YMCA in Bethel.

As dumb as it may be, there is a big difference in the mind of players and parents between a AAA team at a PAHL type organization and a AAA/Tier 1 only organization. They want a separate website, different jerseys, and their own organization page on MHR with one team per BY to build up the organization ranking. That’s why it’s so surprising that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark, even without those things I mentioned above. If there was a AAA/Tier 1 org in the South Hills, it would absolutely kill it. That’s really the only chance to have a true PPE competitor in Pittsburgh. And if they did it right with a stated goal of developing Pittsburgh area kids and also not forcing some hockey-based academy on the kids, that would help them even more.

Very interesting observations. Seems like a number of those things are correctable and that could help some, but location still seems to be the biggest issue. People are staying in the south hills more and more and playing in "lesser" organizations than Esmark. To me that's the main reason why Preds and SHAHA are starting to consistently put together better teams than Esmark.

I agree with this. But Preds and SHAHA have rinks that are 10 minutes from each other so they are competing with each other for the same kids and they STILL are outperforming Esmark. It's wild. The only way to have a real competitor to PPE is to have one legit Tier1/AAA only organization the south hills. You get the best of the south hills kids from SHAHA, Preds, Lebo, South PGH, and the insane ones that are driving to New Ken and Alpha 3-4 times per week. This would absolutely kill it. The problem is there is already an ice shortage in the south hills so unless something changes this won't happen.

A lot of people on this forum like to make a leap and claim to know something about people that colors their opinion. "Sounds like we found the (PPE, Esmark, Vengeance, AAA, AA, Faux AAA, old, young, disgruntled) guy....." It gets old and it prevents people from actually sharing their opinion. Glad you shared your opinion.

Looks like their rankings are essentially the same, but South Pgh obviously can't play the ranking game with their PAHL schedule. But looking at how the teams did in Detroit this past weekend, and some previous common games, the 2010 South Pittsburgh team is probably better than the Esmark 2010 team. It is kind of crazy that a PAHL team is better than an Esmark team for the same BY. I thought this thread would reveal some other issue or bad strategy by Esmark, but so far no one has offered anything. Really seems to just be an issue of a terrible rink location for Esmark and all the Tier 1/AAA organizations are already in the north. The south has more/better hockey talent and no AAA only organizations, and so that seems to be why SHAHA, Preds, and even South PGH can build better teams than Esmark. Seems like the Esmark name is fading. Are they going to adapt or is some other organization going to come in and fill the void?

Ok. Sounds like the consensus is that they are falling behind Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA because of rink location. Maybe more parents are sane than we realize and refuse to make that drive just to play on an Esmark team. The fact that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark for the best kids and are consistently putting together better teams than Esmark just shows you how much of vacuum there is for a Tier 1 type of organization in the south hills. If there was ice available something like that would absolutely kill it. That's really the only way you'll have anything come close to competing with PPE... have a AAA/Tier 1 organization based in the south hills. There just isn't enough ice.

They've had peewee and bantam teams off and on for five plus years. Maybe longer. You would think that if they were supposed to be the PPE competitor, kids and families would be flocking there. Vengeance, SHAHA, and Preds are doing better. What is Esmark doing wrong?

It's really surprising how Esmark doesn't seem to have a foothold at all with good players in the younger birth years. Even bantam and midget birth years are kind of brutal. What's going on? I thought they were supposed to be the only real competitor to PPE? Is it the location, the rink, or something else? They're just not getting the players. I know someone here will say, "No one cares about peewee hockey!" Well apparently Esmark cares about 12U hockey because they are putting together teams (or at least trying to) at that age. This is pretty brutal... 2011 Pens Preds Vengeance Esmark 2010 Pens Vengeance Preds Rebellion Esmark 2009 Pens Vengeance Preds SHAHA Esmark 2008 Vengeance Pens SHAHA Preds Esmark 15U Pens Esmark SHAHA Vengeance Preds 16U Pens SHAHA Esmark Preds Seems like Esmark needs a revamp, or at least re-evaluate their current strategy.

The kid playing up a year is so creative and dangerous. He's able to elevate the whole team.

Any PAHL teams doing a partial season with AHF? How has it been?

Is this something new for AHF? Interesting rationale. Allows teams to play an unbalanced schedule to minimize travel or even a partial season to supplement another league. This "Krach" rating seems to balance things out when it comes time for playoff seeding. I've bashed Black Bear on this forum quite a bit but this is actually interesting. https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/krachratings/

How is the NCDC these days? Has it been improving or no? Seems like the NAHL is still probably an overall better league.

Changes to come... Better website New signage advertising their PAHL-alternative leagues More expensive ice That's likely it. But at least it will stay open. Right now 22% of all the PAHL teams play in a Black Bear rink. Seems like they could easily force those teams to play their AHF league next year. The only division they are missing is the "West" division. Just a matter of time. Is that good or bad? I'm not sure.

I'm always surprised by the negativity on this forum. Many people on here just seem angry and love to point out how terrible the various local organizations are, how everything sucks, Pittsburgh hockey is doomed, parents are all idiots, and the kids have no talent. I guess it makes some people feel good to knock others down a peg or two? Or maybe it makes them feel smart? I can't imagine having that type of outlook.

I know all the grumpy and unhappy people hate MHR, but it's pretty accurate, even with just 5-10 games in the system. Not perfect, but pretty good. It'll change some, but it's much less than you appear to believe. ...old man yells at cloud...

You mean the Esmark teams that are worse than their current SHAHA, Preds, or Vengeance teams? It is kinda crazy that for BY 06-09 SHAHA has better teams than Esmark. SHAHA must be doing something right.