Saucey

Did PIHL have the ability to make the team forfeit the game? People throw around a lot of things that they wanted to see happen, without considering if they were possible. I think PIHL did what they could. Was there precedent for that in the past? You have to remember that there are layers of authority there, governing different aspects of things. The students are banned. PIHL can do that. The program is on probation Also PIHL. Some of the posts indicate that students are being suspended. That is the school. Perhaps not in a timely fashion (football players able to play, some have said, and this is awful and teaches kids only that some people are more special than others...but hey, that is true in life, not that it is right, there is your lesson in life is not fair.) I think that may be all that can be done from PIHL's standpoint. The hockey organization and/or the county, whoever hired the security guard, need to address the security failure. (Maybe they did.) I am also still appalled that the refs don't seem to have faced anything. (But we may not know if they did.) But I bet that the attention and the microscope that this program (and the criticism of the refs) is not going away anytime soon. I bet everyone will have stand behavior on their radar now. Maybe more will be done to address bad behavior all around. Maybe refs hear we don't want them to ignore such blatantly bad and harmful behavior, as well as schools. I don't want to see a team punished for stand behavior beyond a bench penalty issued by a ref. (That would have been a good way to handle it... again, still looking at the refs.) For example, there are a lot of good kids trying to play with some horrible parents in the stands. That one just doesn't sit well with me. People have tried to impute the student section behavior onto the players, but that always comes across as a stretch to me. (They had to have heard it, they did nothing, they skated by and smiled at the stands, obviously they supported it!) Particularly when the goalie said she knows many of those players and didn't blame them. Kids! They are all kids. Freaking adults didn't handle this well and you all want the kids to have handled it better. Life is not an after school special. We could wish they all would have stopped play or done something....but they are still kids. Let's put all their heads up on a stake at the rink, maybe that will be enough. The adults need to be the focus. You can say you want more to be done in the future. That you want PIHL to have more teeth or control in these situations. Those require changes in rules. But to keep calling for more to be done now, misses the mark a little. The hockey team is being punished. They now have a crappier rep to deal with (on a national scale). Every Armstrong team now does. I went to PAHL games this weekend where people whispered about the Armstrong teams on the ice. Nothing to do with the high school, but now they have that stigma and guilt by association. This is going to follow Armstrong around for a long time. Rightly so. Move the conversation now to either changes you want to see happen to punishment and/or prevention in the future. Better yet...correct your kid when he says he's glad he didn't make the team with the woman coach. When he says, 'That is so gay!' When he is upset that an all girls team beat his, and that shouldn't have happened' because they are...girls. A small amount of what I have seen and overheard just in the past year. Hockey has a long way to go before it is truly for everyone. The kids are just taking their cues from the adults around them.

Who do you root for?

Agreed. But there was no one in the stands at all who was related to one of those students who couldn't put a stop to it? Clear failure here, I want to know what we are to do if it isn't stopped by those assigned to stop it. I don't think the players should have to continue to deal with it. If no action is taken by those who are supposed to...then what?

Absolutely. USA Hockey has been telling us for a few years that people don't want to ref. We all need to step up or....no one will be in the stands or reffing games. I don't really blame refs for not wanting to deal with the stands. Particularly the young kids just getting started.

Yeah...and then we hear...we can't get refs to come out as it is...etc. Asking the coaches and refs to do it is not enough. It is incredibly powerful to see it in action, however. New York empowered their refs after a basketball official was assaulted. I saw a 16 year old stop a game and refuse to drop the puck until the misbehaving parents left. Talk about a Robin Lehner.

I just read a really good story about Robin Lehner. He has really taken it upon himself to be a leader in speaking out about how athletes are treated in sports. He is incredibly remarkable. However, there was a sense of weariness in some of his responses. A sense that he does not want to be the spokesperson for all of this, that sometimes, he would just like to play hockey. I get that. I have been thinking a lot about this, about how, in this day and age, these things continue to happen. This thread has asked good questions...why didn't x, y, or z stop the behavior while it was going on? What can we do to prevent it in the future? How do we empower people and how do we change a negative and harmful part of hockey culture, that the majority of people agree is bad, yet it persists? Well...how many times have you got up during a game to try and halt bad behavior? Not often, I guarantee it. The Robin Lehners of the world are rare. And then, if you did, how successful were you? What kind of response did you receive? I've been there. It's really hard to be the lone voice in the locker room, the stands, or on the bench. I've argued with the jack wagon on my beer league team for using racial or ethnic slurs that they excused as acceptable 'hockey chirps'. At the time, my voice was the only only speaking out. Later, people would PM me to tell me they agreed with me. They didn't want to make waves at the time, but wanted me to know that they weren't racist or sexist...but somehow, the jack wagon didn't hear that. This is a very powerful way that sexual predators and bullies continue on their merry way. We see this over and over and over. I complained once a few years ago at a rink when a parent was clearly threatening to hurt a ref. It's odd how things are set up at places...there is no clear responsibility. I was told...not our event...call the police. Well, I am not the one being threatened...the police would want the ref to call. In the moment, I didn't know what to do with that response. Troubling. I've sat in stands with obnoxious parents...I posted here recently about it. Sometimes I complain, sometimes not. Because it is really hard to be that person who speaks up, and so discouraging when no one backs you up PUBLICLY. What that feels like, what the jack wagon sees as well...IS THAT EVERYONE AGREES WITH HIM. it's scary and uncomfortable to confront people. We've seen that echoed by the people in charge in this matter. 'Afraid of what they might do next.' Imagine, if it is scary to stand up to the person, how much harder it is for the target of the abuse. So...two things. Responsibility for action needs to be clear, whatever that course of action is, well communicated to clubs and parents, consistent across rinks, and enforced. Everyone needs to know what to do to respond. We don't want parents to have to start yelling at each other or kids during games, because we don't want to have fights break out. We don't want vrefs and coaches to have to stop. (But maybe sometimes, we do and we want them to know they have to.) There are clubs and schools who handle this well. There are people given the responsibility for parent control in the stands. Expectations are clearly communicated. And if you behave bad, you won't be allowed to attend. As someone who has always been outspoken but has become shy about doing it of late..it is so much easier to speak and take action when you know other people have your back. It's really hard to be the Robin Lehners of the world. You get tired of always being the one to speak out. Sometimes, you give up. It is exhausting and emotionally draining. So I ask...if you can't do it yourself, because I know how hard it is to do...then make sure you get the backs of those who do. Don't support their victims in secret. The behavior is much more likely to stop when the perpetrator knows that no one is going to tolerate it. Our governing bodies need to help figure out/establish who to empower to stop the behavior. But It starts with all of us. The ground swell of support is good. We can demand a strong response and change through our club's representatives in our governing bodies if we are dissatisfied with PIHL's response. We can make sure our teams, benches and stands aren't a part of the problem. it's going to take all of us. Keep shining a light on it. Make it so the bad person is not hidden so he can move on to his next victim. Hold the light if you can't be the one turning it on.

It's definitely a slippery slope, what is an acceptable taunt. Demanding good sportsmanship sounds good to me. I hate being in the stands anymore, listening to parents and kids be negative.

Since Jim Black was unfairly maligned in that same post, when ironically, his rink is one of the best to play at if you are female, I would name him a good one. Bob Arturo from RMU, retired. Marianne Watkins. Brianne McLaughlin. Howard Smith. Just about every coach my kid has ever had. The ones volunteering time to run their programs. Be their team managers. The young people coming out to help with the mite programs. There are lots of good refs. There are a lot of good people in the hockey community. It's why we say 'hockey community'. This Board is mostly used to complain.

Um....no. Taunting based on sex and race is done. It is sexual harassment. Could be defined as a hate crime depending on what was said. No one is saying that students can't taunt a goalie. There is a line, however, and it was crossed. There are a lot of things that were done in the day. The focus should not be on her reaction to what happened, as that is entirely irrelevant. We want this crap out of the game. This type of reaction is why women and minorities have felt excluded from sport. Don't defend bad behavior.

Sounds like maybe the Armstrong hockey team saw some discipline and hockeyisgreat felt others did not, is how I read that thread, not necessarily complaints about the comments here.

It's very hard to understand. But then, women weren't able to get credit in their own names until my generation, along with other things that treated them as man's property. Maybe not so surprising. Any time I see a post by USA Hockey celebrating a woman or minority, a good twenty percent of the comments are terrible. With the Blackhawks stuff hitting the news ... hockey has such a long way to go. Society has a long way to go. Just scratching the surface

That's what I think about. But...as a society we are going that direction. Me me me.

There are 16 skaters on the roster. Is that low for a JR team? COVID? Injuries? Maybe people can't afford to pay for hockey post high school now.

07 is another low BY. Soon there won't be any left in PAHL, just like the 05s, since all the independent teams will need their parents' check books.

07. Pens poach late in the season, too, so since Vengeance want to be the Pens, guess they need to follow their crappy behavior, too.

Nope. I have a feeling it's really widespread. Don't know what can be done about it. I get why people may be reluctant to address it. People are scary. Either block em or encourage refs not to drop the puck till they stop/go. But I hate that coaches and refs have to stop games to address the stands. BTW....you are a clear problem when your own coaches are having to yell at you from the bench. I am leaving games so angry at people. We had such a horrible year and we should be beyond grateful. Let the kids play without your commentary. Let there be fun again.

Couple games into the season and I am ready for parents to be banned from watching games. THE BEHAVIOR IS ATROCIOUS.

Parents are ruining this sport.

So glad someone made this point.

I think the main takeaway from this very helpful discussion is 'stay in school, kids.' ? This is good stuff guys, ty.

Yep. And at 16 they start wandering away to do other things, not even playing or just playing school.

I find it ironic that that you need to pilfer from all those 'horrible' programs to form your whiskey venture teams.

It's just kind of funny that it is the Predators doing this. Not exactly known for their production of players. My kids are almost done thank goodness. I just vehemently believe that if you are taking AA players out of the local league, you are exponentially increasing the cost of hockey, which hurts the growth of the sport. And not that I know you personally, Forbin, but the whole 'I just.love to travel' reason typically rings false'. Parents who tell me this also do things that suggest they are reaching for AAA. And to do your little weekend dream, you have to have a team, and there are definitely parents and kids there being sold a bunch of malarkey so you can have a whiskey sour with dads in another city. It's disingenuous and doesn't grow the game around here.

If in a little over their head, that will improve skills. Way over is a waste of time for both teams.

Subjective question, depends on how you measure it. I would say, however, that a program that does not have mites, LTS, LTP, has no choice but to take players from the programs who do.