GrumpyOldPucker

I don't know how many on this board go back multiple decades in PGH hockey to be able discuss this one. For those that remember\experienced the evolution of PGH hockey from the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's........ Royal Travelers, Am Pens, Hornets, etc..... What course do you think hockey in the area would have taken if PPE never came into existence and forced a hostile takeover of the Hornets?

Waaaayyyy back when - the first time they got rid of delayed offsides at all levels, the reason stated was to force defensemen to have there heads up, stop\backup\regroup instead of just banging the puck in deep. I can attest that at that point in time most would just drive the puck in with their head down like they said. Intentional offsides was almost never called and probably should have been called on many occasions..... If the puck didn't do "directly to a defensive player" we were supposed to kill play and bring it out for a face off. Most officials didn't call it that way and allowed play to continue if it went if the puck wrapped around behind the net to the weak side winger. Not exactly how it was supposed to be called. Then they said it had to go to a defensive player before (IIRC) the top of the circle - I can remember NCAA having the same issues and actually put a line on the side boards that they wanted an immediate whistle for intentional offsides if it went below it. I can still remember the debates over what was legal and when to whistle the play. It was VERY inconsistently called and evolved into all was good as long as it wasn't on net and everyone cleared the zone. At that point in time I agreed with the assessment that it allowed players to be lazy and not work to develop skills. After a year or two I saw the skill and creativity increase (for some players). Did the skill and creativity regress again??? I dunno, you folks tell me. As for different rules once the players get to JR\College.... well if they are good enough to play at that level then they ought to be able to adjust to the different rules. As for whether it's good or bad for the game, having seen it flip-flopped a few times I figure that it should not matter if coaches adjust the way they have the team play and work to develop player skills. To those that say it will slow the game down, I say they gotta change the way they play.... tell the D to play several feet inside the blue line if being aggressive or back off to just inside the line and let your desired gap dictate when to give up the line if he isn't. Puts more pressure the D to be aware and manage his position better cuz they have to be able to pull the puck back and regroup rather than just bang it back in. I have seen a whole lot of really crappy passing made by the D over the past 15 years. Crappy D to D regroups, Crappy half-assed slap it up the boards in the direction of the winger break out attempts.... maybe they do need to do this, but I have no dog in this fight anymore and I'll just sit back with my beer n wings and watch the show..... Now as for icing while on the PK, good to get rid of it at all levels... It's a relic from when the Montreal Canadians had a world beating PP. Maybe a legit compromise is to make the shorthanded team gain the neutral zone before dumping it.

hey popcorn... Do some meaningful research before you start spouting shit outa your pie hole! A couple years ago (2017 maybe?) I looked at the historical girls hockey registration numbers for all of USAH for the previous 10 years. Mid-Am historically ranks very near the bottom in total girls registration numbers by district and might be dead last at the National bound levels when compared to all of the other USAH Districts. Add to it that Mid-Am's numbers are spread across 5 states..... and just maybe you can see why there are not that many teams to compete against. If I remember correctly, if you strictly enforced the age brackets - you would have enough players for maybe 8 full rosters at each level u14, u16, and u19 across those 5 states. NOT 8 equally competitive rosters, JUST 8 teams across 5 states. SO don't spout that horseshit line that they didn't have to beat anyone to get there. They truly were a collection of 20 of the best players in the district at the age level.... you cannot ask for more than that. THEY BEAT TEAMS WHEN THEY GOT THERE AND THAT IS WHAT COUNTS! Bitch all you want about the boys and the "faux 3a teams" but DO NOT belittle the effort and accomplishments of these girls. They are competing very well against some very good competition from Michigan and the NorthEast! Going into this years Nationals the SCS U14's were ranked #6, the U16's were #13, and the U19's were #29 - the 7th lowest seed of 24 teams per MHR and still they managed to make a very impressive run. Oh, and that U16 team that you said didn't even have to win a game in districts lost the damn NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME BY ONE GOAL

Congratulations to 2021 SCS Girls 14U - Bronze Medal 16U - Silver Medal 19U - Bronze Medal

Depends on whether you gauged success ONLY by winning the national championship: Steel City Selects Girls 2021: 14U - Lost in Semi Finals 19U - Lost in Semi Finals 16U - Lost in Championship game

This again?

To strictly answer the question, girls can multi roster but cannot participate in both girls and boys district\nationals - ya gotta pick one but for girls it is definitely a benefit to play coed up through at least one year of checking if possible. They will hopefully learn to play more aggressively and deal with the body contact much better than if they played only girls. Pros: more practice time, faster speed of play, more physicality Cons: Burnout from too many games and too many practices (yes I said that). You could be on the ice 7 days a week with days that you have multiple games and or practices on the same day. is 80 - 100 games too many for one season? Too much travel. Excessively expensive. Different coaches that potentially focus on developing different skills and\or have no clue how to teach and develop skills or are too win focused for the age level. Confusion due to different coaches giving conflicting instructions on positioning, playing style, etc. In the end, it depends on the player. I've seen players that thrived on it and players that flamed out and quit. You gotta know your child and when it's not fun anymore then it's time to back off a bit.

Many organizations do give coaches input in the team make up - I've been there a few times. I personally don't give a flying fuck how long a team has been together.... ANYONE can be replaced at any time..... AND Just maybe some of the "entitled core kids" and their parents need to experience that to stay hungry and keep working to fulfil their potential. I've seen many times where the kids that are deemed to be the core of the team may have the individual talent and potential, but all too often are arrogant, lack discipline, have a poor work ethic in practice that affects the whole teams development, and exhibit a disturbing lack of teamwork during games except when they are paired with certain equally entitled buddies. Here's the thing.... If a team is "guaranteeing" certain players a roster spot then they should be up front about it, just give them the spot and tell the rest of the unwashed masses that they are trying out for three. or four, or one roster spot... yeah, that will bring in all of that free tryout fee money..... gotta have the farce of a full fair and open tryout!! Most of the kids that are on the outside looking in, are serious about trying to make those teams, and actually have a chance to make the team have already done the math. They know who the "chosen few" are as they've been going head to head with them most of their hockey life, and they know how badly the odds are stacked against them. All they ask for is to get a serious, unbiased chance vs the chosen..... They are the ones that are working to improve and are hungry, the "core players" maybe not so much. Also, what I wrote above ONLY applies to Tier 1&2 National bound teams. To use PAHL language, if you are not the AA team then you should get the next 18 in line and two goalies and spend 75% of your practices improving your individual skills.

Bender, that's just my opinion on where I would start to reform the tryout process.... take it for whatever you value it as. I think that you need to set a definite hierarchy of expected skill level with the top getting first crack at the talent.... The only thing I would change\add would be that I would have a lottery for tryout week so that teams couldn't intentionally schedule to conflict with competitors. Do that from top down. There is nothing there that says a team HAS to have open tryouts -they can fill their roster by invitation only..... they just have a specific date that they can actually offer a roster spot. It is what it is.... I no longer have any skin in that game and doubt that mid-am will offer me a spot on the board. Having lived the hockey life since the 70's I've been involved in more than a few tryouts and performance evals. When I've had the opportunity to review the actual raw numbers from each evaluator, you would be surprised how close the player rankings are between evaluators. Some evaluators seem to use all of their 1-10 range others refuse to rank a 1 or 10 but the players position in each list were pretty close. The middle 25-30% of the bell curve are usually bunched up but the players seemed to float up\down in maybe a 5% window in that middle range. The differences I've seen tend to come from evaluating the scrimmages. The skills rankings were never too different between the evaluators but the game play ranking moved them around depending on what the evaluator favors in players, ie: positioning and hockey sense, playmaking, puck skills and body positioning, anticipation, aggressiveness on the puck, hustle away from the puck, shooting\willingness to take shots, selfishness with the puck (like refusing to make a headman pass or taking a low % shot when you have a team mate wide open for a tap-in.etc). As for parents.... most of the times that I was an evaluator they didn't close tryouts. When asked\approached by a parent I explained the process and referred them to the board - END of discussion - to me the players were just a number. Those few parents that I was close enough to that I would discuss their kids performace, it was not with respect to any other player. They got my personal, NO BS, very hard and critical opinion of their kid. They knew the gloves were off and they didn't usually do this more than once 'cuz I didn't feed their ego or opinion that "Johnny should be on 'X' team". I made it a point to burst their bubble and gave them a very clear review of their kids flaws from an evaluator\coaches point of view. Some were put off and some thanked me for the no BS list of things to work on.

The grumpy one says with tongue firmly in cheek: But, But, But........ How else can you do all summer team building stuff like off ice conditioning, and Dek, and 3 on3 and, chalk talk .... and... and.... and... Oh, BTW - we aren't saying not to go on that trip to Disney with your extended family and the kids 75 year old grandparents that they haven't seen in 10 years, but you will be missing the team pool party\cookout\parental drunk fest..... We all know how you have to fit in with the parental soap opera. People will talk about you if you aren't there. If the GrumpyOldPucker were king he would declare: - All tryouts are closed to parents - All of USA Hockey Tier 1 NATIONAL BOUND teams (boys and girls) have the first 3 weeks of May to run their tryouts. Roster spots may be offered up to the Wednesday before Memorial day weekend. The Friday of Memorial day weekend is the NATIONALLY MANDATED Tier 1 National Bound deadline to accept an offered roster spot, players may accept earlier but no organization can require acceptance sooner. If roster is not filled, No additional spots ma be offered until the July Tier 2 tryout period. All non - district players are REQUIRED to physically attend an open tryout in MAY. note, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS TRYOUT PERIOD THE TEAM IS DECLARING FOR NATIONALS. FOR TEAMS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE MAY TRYOUT PERIOD, ANY NATIONALS FEES REQUIRED MUST BE PAID AND ARE NON-REFUNDABLE. TEAMS THAT OPT FOR THE JULY TRYOUT PERIOD CAN WAIT UNTIL THE DECEMBER 31 DEADLINE TO DECLARE. - July 5 thru last Wednesday in July: Tier 2 national bound teams (boys and girls), and any NON National Bound Tier 1 teams try out period. National bound Tier 1 teams can offer additional roster spots during this time period. The last Friday in July is the NATIONALLY MANDATED Tier 2 National bound and Non National bound Tier 1 deadline to accept an offered roster spot, players may accept earlier but no organization can require acceptance sooner. - COMMITMENT FEES ARE WAIVED FOR ANY PLAYER JUMPING FROM a Tier 2 National bound team to Tier 1 team National bound team. All tryouts are closed to parent but Tier 2 organizations MUST allow Tier 1 team representatives to observe tryout with the express purpose of allowing them to review players for any open roster spots. - August 1 thru August 21 ALL Tier 2 NON National bound teams permitted to tryout. The usual commitment fees and politics apply to this group.... Parents are encouraged to pick an organization they like and just let the kid play on whatever team they are assigned to. Dates are designed to give the T1\T2 bubble players a reason to work and improve over the summer for Tier 2 tryouts and maybe give them the opportunity to get a second look from a Tier 1 team. To be a little more serious, I thought tryouts were not permitted to happen until 24 hours after nationals are done? I've seen too may players give less that half-assed attention to the summer off ice\conditioning\team building stuff..... Even at the Tier 1 level.

Good breakdown MrFreeze... A good OLD SCHOOL figures coach will be well versed in edges but if they are much under 40 or so they learned after they stopped the "patch" edge work as the requirement for compulsory school figures (edges) in competitions was removed in 1988. The newer figure coaches seem to concentrate more on how to do the jumps and spins, and less on the edges and footwork..... That said, Old School power skating is the foundation that good technique is built on. It's how to efficiently use your edges and balance. The hard pard isn't teaching them the edges and the power skating techniques that build strength and balance. The hard part is teaching them how to use that foundation to create a smooth powerful stride. Watch McDavid skate. Strong, fast, powerful, and looks effortless.

Watched the whole game... This was AA???? The kid that got dumped into the box was standing straight up, if he had bent his knees. lowered his shoulder and center of gravity the Pred would have bounced off! Again, this is AA??? As for the crap in the corner.... I don't know or care what was called on the BS in the corner but you could have tossed two on each side by what I saw. Let the state police and the lawyers deal with the parents.... Until they start paying a real price for their poor behavior it will keep happening.

I can confirm that officials are NOT permitted to remove\change an assessed penalty from the score sheet for any reason. What they ARE allowed to do is correct a clerical error like a penalty recorded incorrectly ie: a Misconduct penalty recorded as a Game Misconduct, etc. It can get messy if there was an incident at the end of the game and things get written down on the sheet as they are discussing the situation and deciding on what to assess. Situations like that should initially be recorded on a separate sheet of paper, reviewed and then transferred to the scoresheet when they are satisfied with what is to be assessed. Any "scratch outs" or changes to what is written on the sheets must be initialed by the officials at the end of the game when they review the scoresheet and sign off on it's correctness. Anything more than clerical corrections and the officials must file a written report. Me thinks that - as usual - we do not have all of the facts to intelligently discuss this one.... But why let that stop anyone..... someone pass me another beer and some popcorn! ??? I gotta say, every time I gat a wild hair and think about coming out of retirement I just come hear and that wild hair gets yanked right quick!

I said it when ADM was thrust upon us.... "Squirt is gonna be the new mite. We will be teaching them things as 9-10 yr olds." I can remember seeing mite AA teams doing perfect breakouts and neutral zone regroups with D to D passes!

Talk about thread drift...... Since you brought up ADM, Do any of you remember when the USAH ADM guru/director/whatever his title was came to town to demonstrate the ADM stations type practice when they were originally shoving it up our collective ass? I discussed the ADM program with him for a bit said that I did/do agree that ADM has it's benefits and added that I was running practices that way when i could since the 80's. Two big issues that I saw with the ADM program at that point were there was no formal plan in place to transition players from cross ice to full ice when their skill ability warranted it, and everything emphasized the stations and cross ice to "maximize puck touches" and "minimize inactivity". I specifically asked how they expected players to learn how to play the 200 foot game if they never practiced 200 feet and sometimes they have got to observe their teammates skating 200 feet to maybe learn how to do it, where everyone was supposed to go and why. He suggested several x-ice drills that I already used and a couple others that I though were sliding fusterclucks, but didn't answer my question.... basically hinted that the elite players would eventually figure it out and rest could just go play house league. I pushed and got more specific in that as more teams ran ADM all skills stations practices (with limited to no full ice) I was seeing a lot of players that have no clue what to do (or how much hustle is needed) between the blue lines. I tried to teach the Russian weave (am I dating myself?) and the players would invariably just skate straight up the ice instead of following their passes. exploiting the seams, and skating to open ice. Mentioned that the players used to half ice practices had no full ice end to end speed, no explosiveness out of the D zone because ever breakout drill stopped at the red line, and again no clue what to do with the puck from the top of the D zone circle to the top of the O zone circle except skate straight ahead with it. If they didn't have the puck they usually would usually coast through the neutral zone or pace the puck carrier waiting for a lateral tape to tape pass instead of carrying the speed through the zone and passing forward to the open areas. Never did get much of an answer, but we did have a lively discussion. I have not watched ADM or Squirts in a couple years. The trend that I remember once x-ice ADM became gospel was that we now had kids that could stick handle in a phone standing still in a crowd or maybe along the boards but the same kids that would take the puck coast to coast when it was full ice still went end to end.... You still had players with playmaker mindsets that recognized who they should get the puck to and defensive mindsets who would be natural stay at home Defensemen . So what was the net gain here? Has it changed any in the last few years?

I coached off and on over the last 37 years, USAH L4 for about 25 years but never bothered to make the time to earn my L5 Masters. I know what you mean about the clinics being cookie cutter useless these days. Way back when, I seem to remember them being a lot less cookie cutter... more like a day long round table. Before 2000 every coach that I worked with had played, could skate, could demonstrate drills and techniques, and could explain game situations in a way the players understood. After 2000 I always had at least one coach (or more) that had never played and could not skate. Frankly I was concerned that they would hurt themself or a player. At the younger levels I always encouraged these coaches to participate in the skating and skills drills with the kids, Hell, if I was teaching power skating to the kids, why not teach them too.... most declined and at least one confided that he didn't want to embarrass himself in front of the kids. I even offered to teach them to skate privately ... no takers. FWIW I was running ADM style drills and modular station type practices in 80's and 90's...... I believe that the kids were easier to teach the skills and hockey sense 20+ years ago. The kids back then seemed to be more students of the game..... then again, I am getting old and grumpy and the older I get the better I was......

USAH HAS addressed the mental side..... you are supposed to buy "IntelliGym" from them. I am only halfway joking on this...... Looks like it may be useful albeit IMHO too expensive.

it's the alcohol talking...

From a players standpoint, next shift he gets run over or an elbow stuffed in his earhole.... there would be retribution... But I grew up in the '70s - can you say big bad bruins vs broad street bullies? I never liked playing that way, but certainly understood the why and when of it. but these kids look like they are bantam minor.....

Should have been a match penalty. Player would have been suspended from all USAH activities for ANY team until the hearing or 30 days - whichever if first. You said no call on ice so If they reviewed it under supplemental discipline then that would be deliberate attempt to injure... == suspension. question is if they have the stomach to make it really meaningful.

Yup, agree with you here to an extent..... I assume you are talking about the skilled player that would be 1st\2nd line on a "good team" but forced into a checking role on the 3rd or 4th line on an elite team? Definitely agree that a kid is hard pressed to get noticed if they are stuck in the 3rd or 4th line role and they are asked to skate with players that cannot keep up with them or finish when they get the pass to them. Makes for lots of frustration.

Rock and Dropthepuck You mention that the local Tier 1 teams are not affiliated with the same leagues and none of these teams have reason to schedule any games against any local competition no matter how much anyone might want them to to "prove they are better". So, You have four options: 1- find a way to join their leagues or other equally respected leagues - Get in there, mix it up on their turf and walk the walk. 2 - get invited to the same showcase tournament and beat them there 3- Beat them at districts 4 - Keep whining on message boards The real question is, "Is this another case of phallus measurement or maybe envy?" Maybe a better question to ask is who are all of these teams trying to showcase players for. Is it the same audience..... What is their mission statement? BTW, here is some food for thought - below is the U18 Tier 1 national bound rankings and the leagues that they play in for the top 12 (I included 11 & 12 cuz they are way out of WPA but somehow managed to get ranked higher than anyone in Mid-Am not named PPE). If I had included U18 All, there would be SIX more Minnesota Elite teams from the upper midwest HS Elite league in the top 10 and Shattuck St. Mary's would drop to #2. PPE to 6, Esmark to 25, Ohio BJackets to 27, Tri State to 43, Gilmore to 58. Indy to 73, Cleveland to 85, Preds to 101, and Pittsburgh (PHA) Icemen 18U AAA to 148 (below Pittsburgh Predators (Indep) 18U AA at 142 - 29th in U18 Tier 2). The first Tier 2 team on the ALL list is Mn Voyagers at #52 playing in the MNHP 18U Tier 2. 1- Shattuck St Mary (#1) 18U Prep Upper Midwest HS Elite League 2- Pittsburgh Penguins Elite 18U AAA NEPack 18U AAA 4CHL 18U AAA 3- Rochester Coalition 18U AAA BEAST 18U AAA National 4- Mount St Charles Hockey Academy 18U AAA E9HL 18U Showcase BEAST 18U AAA National NEPack 18U AAA 5- Team Wisconsin 18U AAA Upper Midwest HS Elite League 6- Culver Academies Prep Indep USA 18U Tier 1 7- Oakland Jr Grizzlies 18U AAA MAHA 18U AAA HPHL 18U AAA 8- Maine Nordiques 18U AAA BEAST 18U AAA National MEAHA 18U Tier 1 9- Belle Tire 18U AAA MAHA 18U AAA T1EHL 18U AAA 10- North Jersey Avalanche (Premier) 18U AAA AYHL 18U AAA National Premier BEAST 18U AAA National NEPack 18U AAA 11- Nashville Jr Predators 18U AAA T1EHL 18U AAA 12-Rocky Mountain RoughRiders 18U AAA UAHL 18U AAA CAHA-CO 18U AAA 17- Pittsburgh Esmark Stars 18U AAA NAPHL 18U AAA Central 18- Ohio Blue Jackets 18U AAA T1EHL 18U AAA 31- Tri-State Spartans 18U AAA NAPHL 18U AAA Central 43- Gilmour Academy Prep MPHL Prep 52- Indy Jr Fuel 18U AAA NAPHL 18U AAA Central 59- Cleveland Barons 18U AAA T1EHL 18U AAA 61- Pittsburgh Predators 18U AAA Indep USA 18U Tier 1 82- Pittsburgh (PHA) Icemen 18U AAA Indep USA 18U Tier 1 The rankings serve their purpose but are not perfect but they do a pretty fair job of it.

BF - Ya gotta start somewhere and this is a start. I see a couple issues with the plan as I heard it last year. First, There really is not good time to do it. No matter when you try to do it you have issues. Summer and you get mediocre commitment. Fall and it competes with the season ramping up. Spring everyone is coming off a long season. If they happened to go to nationals, they are immediately ramping up for tryouts as soon as they get back .... some girls play only PAHL or HS and PAHL and will have completed their seasons after the first weekend in March. But some play HS and Tier 1 or Tier 2 travel, or just travel and literally have been skating for 10 months solid. Any way you look at it many want a break before they start skating again for next year.... that's upwards of 100 girls that might opt out. Granted, maybe half of these upper tier girls would not want to participate anyway and including them in the potential player pool is not proper. Second, Parents wallets might need a break. After a season of driving all over Western PA (or maybe all over from Michigan to New Hampshire and staying in hotels 1 or 2 weekends a month, lots of meals away from home) and having to - or just did - write a big check for next years team the wallet and bank account might be a might bit drained to find another several hundred dollars. And I didn't add in any extra sessions with private skills coaches....

SadDay4Hockey you passed the exam! THANK YOU! I really wish there were more like you to shout down the mobs with the torches and pitchforks..... Everyone on that list has to do their part. Sometimes - and I do mean sometimes - a really good ref can keep the lid on a shit show when the first 3 fail in keeping up their end. Then again, some games are preordained to be a shit show no matter who is wearing the bands.

Wes, Just playing devils' advocate here.....are you looking at it being additional ice and just highlighting that girls are playing too, or an actual showcase of some sort? How do you evenly divide talent to keep a "super team" from forming and just blowing every other team out. Then, If you do prevent the super team, how do you still draw the better players who would consider it "playing down" , not wanting to play with lesser players, and maybe not worth the risk of getting hurt. Anyone know if Keystone games are planned for this summer? You might also have the tier 1 and 2 national bound teams starting to skate once you get into July.