09 vengeance?

[Tendymom]

On 4/6/2023 at 7:32 AM, Hky05 said:

Supposedly most of Esmark 09 is headed to preds too? Pretty slim open skate for esmark this weekend. They can only make one team. are the two former pens goalies that went to vengeance last year  now going to preds 

Word is the two pens goalies are staying at Vengeance, but i guess we'll see next week at tryouts who shows up where....

[RJUSHL]

What has been the reception at Vengeance with all the changes they've made in the past few weeks/months? They've brought in a lot of new coaches and are pushing their new facilities.

I think there's a good chance they'll continue to gain ground and continue to overtake Esmark as the second best Tier 1 program in the area.

[YardSale]

3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

What has been the reception at Vengeance with all the changes they've made in the past few weeks/months? They've brought in a lot of new coaches and are pushing their new facilities.

I think there's a good chance they'll continue to gain ground and continue to overtake Esmark as the second best Tier 1 program in the area.

 It will vary by age group.  The ‘08s seem to have a lot of movement this year after a solid year last year, the ‘09s may or may not have a team and the ‘10s lost some players to Esmark and others while the ‘11s picked up a bunch of Pens black players.  The carousel continues despite a shiny new facility.

Edited April 12, 2023 by YardSale
Adding ‘11s

[hockey55]

So apparently some kids from 09 vengeance made 09 pens today? 

[TeamRamRod]

I heard 3 skaters and a goalie

[RJUSHL]

Lots of shifting with the 09s this year (and more to come). Pens rightfully taking some 09 Vengeance kids. Esmark 09 struggling to field a team and having to hold supplementals. Some unknowns with Vengeance tryouts but that seems to be changing now. They will get some of the better Esmark players and some of the top AA players making a jump, as well as keeping the majority of their team. Even losing a few players, the Vengeance 09 team could be better next year. And some of the Esmark players in the south hills seem to be headed for the Preds 09 AAA team.

Between SHAHA, Preds, and Esmark there are going to be some AAA players that bump down to AA this year.

Lots of interest in North Pittsburgh and South Pittsburgh in terms of a landing spot for AAA kids that get bumped and the better AA kids from Foxes and Lebo that seem to be moving on. NPGH and SPGH seem to have the best coaching situations and solid plans for next season. They're going to improve a lot.

And on the other side of the city, the Renegades and Badgers seem to be picking up many of the top players from the very good '09 Viper Stars AA team.

AAA: Pens and Preds should be a lot better. Esmark is going to struggle. Vengeance should still be very good. Wouldn't surprise me if this is the last year of SHAHA 09s playing AAA. They should remain ranked at about 100. That's a very good AA team, not so sure it's AAA. Why not compete for Tier II nationals? They could win it.

AA: Rebellion, North Pitt, and Renegades will be much better. Foxes and Lebo seem to be taking a step back.

Just an absurd amount of movement with the 09s this year.

Edited April 17, 2023 by RJUSHL

[No Politics]

RJ, I have NEVER seen movement like this year.  Teams from last year who were struggling to field a AA team now have over forty kids going out for them, and other teams are simply folding because they get ten kids coming out to tryouts.  I think parents' heads are just spinning from all the gamesmanship from the programs.

You already mentioned the AAA chaos, and I think a lot of that has to do with kids leaving AAA programs for AA programs.  There's a trickle-down effect.

There has to be a better system than what we have.  It's the kids who are hurt every year, and it's not always the fault of the parents trying to find that extra A.

I hope programs and parents use this board as a CONSTRUCTIVE way to find a home for these orphan kids.

[RJUSHL]

13 minutes ago, No Politics said:

RJ, I have NEVER seen movement like this year.

It’s wild. And I think it’s just going to get more insane at the end of the week as Preds, SHAHA, and Vengeance wrap up tryouts and each roster has a huge turnover. A couple of the AA teams (North Pitt, Rebellion, Renegades, Badgers) could legitimately be better than Esmark when all is said and done.

[aaaahockey]

58 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

AAA: Pens and Preds should be a lot better. Esmark is going to struggle. Vengeance should still be very good. Wouldn't surprise me if this is the last year of SHAHA 09s playing AAA. They should remain ranked at about 100. That's a very good AA team, not so sure it's AAA. Why not compete for Tier II nationals? They could win it.

I'm the #1 advocate for Tier 2.  I also cannot argue that SHAHA 09 might be 100.  That being said with a relative on the team they are looking to be a bit better with some pretty good pickups from vengeance and they are the only 09 team that I expect to not have turnover because they are actually happy with each other (parents, kids, coaches).   The Preds sound like an absolute mess in many ways, as they always do.   All that being said I told my relative they should go tier 2 and could win. I actually think the icemen could win a national championship this year but have also heard they joined the black bear league?   

[bender05]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:31 AM, Tendymom said:

Word is the two pens goalies are staying at Vengeance, but i guess we'll see next week at tryouts who shows up where....

didn’t one make pens?

[Carl Racki]

The funny thing is if you look at the 2009 rankings Preds, SHAHA, Esmark, and Icemen (I know hard to believe) were all relatively similar teams.  Theoretically if they play each other it should be about a one goal game.  I am sure they all have a few AAA players but not a whole roster full.  Looks like Preds will pick up some Esmark players and maybe a few others.  Sounds like SHAHA is getting a few players also.  Esmark is going to be a rough team as seems like they only lost players, and Vengeance is probably going to be dropping down in the rankings as they lost a lot of their top players and who knows who will be back.  To bad those teams wouldn't just have their own local league where they all would play each other two times this coming season.  That would make the most sense but sadly I doubt it would ever happen.  They will travel all over to play similar teams or often worse teams.  

[Duster19]

On 4/6/2023 at 4:01 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

na that's saved for the ICEMAN, but a close second 

Yeah the Icemen and the Preds battle for the final stop.  But give credit to the 09 Icemen.  They are pretty good.  Let’s see how they do on midams though.  

The 06 Icemen were awful in midams against the PAHL teams.  NP beat them 10-1 or something like that. The 08 Icemen team didn’t do well in midams either.  The 07 icemen were not good.

Money grab.

 

 

[RicoFata]

This 09 Icemen team is legit and I agree they could be National Championship contenders. Anyone know if they picked up some Esmark fallouts/other AAA talent? The core they already had was very talented and if they added anyone else I don’t see anyone stopping them at States. 

[Hky05]

3 minutes ago, RicoFata said:

This 09 Icemen team is legit and I agree they could be National Championship contenders. Anyone know if they picked up some Esmark fallouts/other AAA talent? The core they already had was very talented and if they added anyone else I don’t see anyone stopping them at States. 

Icemen tryouts aren’t until next week looks like only the goalie tryout so far…..rumor is last year esmark goalie going to icemen 

 

esmark has a supplemental tonight but vengeance starts tonight and preds and shaha aren’t done yet so who could they even pick up. Seems like a lot of players are going to preds tryouts but can’t take them all. 
 

[RJUSHL]

This was a year where some top AA PAHL players (that are really AAA players and have been for awhile) will make the jump to AAA. That, combined with Esmark having a hard time putting together a team means that the top players are more concentrated (Pens, Vengeance, Preds, SHAHA probably in that order) than has been the case in the past. And then most of Esmaark moving on to other AAA programs means that a lot of existing AAA kids that really would be better fits in AA will end up there. So some AA teams like North Pitt, South Pitt, and Renegades will pickup kids that got pushed out of AAA and will be much better because of it. Then other previously solid AA teams like Foxes, Lebo, Viper Stars who all will lose at least one player to AAA this year (or more) will look at other options and move laterally to AA teams like North Pitt, South Pitt, and Renegades. Just a wild game of musical chairs with a lot of good players who may end up without a seat.

[RJUSHL]

1 hour ago, RicoFata said:

This 09 Icemen team is legit and I agree they could be National Championship contenders. Anyone know if they picked up some Esmark fallouts/other AAA talent? The core they already had was very talented and if they added anyone else I don’t see anyone stopping them at States. 

Aren't the 09 Icemen trying to be Tier 1? They are playing in Black Bears THF league next season. 

[RicoFata]

2 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Aren't the 09 Icemen trying to be Tier 1? They are playing in Black Bears THF league next season. 

Yeah the progression plan on their website is National Bound Tier 2 this upcoming season, then THF Tier 1 the following season as a 15U AAA team. 

[YardSale]

12 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

This was a year where some top AA PAHL players (that are really AAA players and have been for awhile) will make the jump to AAA. That, combined with Esmark having a hard time putting together a team means that the top players are more concentrated (Pens, Vengeance, Preds, SHAHA probably in that order) than has been the case in the past. And then most of Esmaark moving on to other AAA programs means that a lot of existing AAA kids that really would be better fits in AA will end up there. So some AA teams like North Pitt, South Pitt, and Renegades will pickup kids that got pushed out of AAA and will be much better because of it. Then other previously solid AA teams like Foxes, Lebo, Viper Stars who all will lose at least one player to AAA this year (or more) will look at other options and move laterally to AA teams like North Pitt, South Pitt, and Renegades. Just a wild game of musical chairs with a lot of good players who may end up without a seat.

It has been discussed that the Vengeance players are scattering, where are their players coming from as you see them second in the pecking order?

[RJUSHL]

5 minutes ago, YardSale said:

It has been discussed that the Vengeance players are scattering, where are their players coming from as you see them second in the pecking order?

I guess we'll see after this week. They'll lose a few players but enough are staying and they are so deep that I still think they'll be better than Preds and SHAHA by a fairly large margin. They should pickup some AA kids that legitimately should've been playing AAA for the past few years. I don't think they are going to fall 40 or so spots in the rankings and be where Esmark, Preds, and SHAHA were last year. Just don't see that happening.

[Hockey00]

17 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

I guess we'll see after this week. They'll lose a few players but enough are staying and they are so deep that I still think they'll be better than Preds and SHAHA by a fairly large margin. They should pickup some AA kids that legitimately should've been playing AAA for the past few years. I don't think they are going to fall 40 or so spots in the rankings and be where Esmark, Preds, and SHAHA were last year. Just don't see that happening.

Tonight there are preds goalie ttryouts, Esmark supplemental, and vengeance tryouts all at once 

[YardSale]

4 minutes ago, Hockey00 said:

Tonight there are preds goalie ttryouts, Esmark supplemental, and vengeance tryouts all at once 

I'm still trying to figure out why Esmark didn't wait until post-vengeance/preds to have their supplemental.  But I'm sure they have their reasons. 

[RJUSHL]

5 minutes ago, YardSale said:

I'm still trying to figure out why Esmark didn't wait until post-vengeance/preds to have their supplemental.  But I'm sure they have their reasons. 

It makes no sense. I see a supplemental to the supplemental coming.

Edited April 17, 2023 by RJUSHL

[YardSale]

6 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

It makes no sense. I see a supplemental to the supplemental coming.

If you are committed there, I have to imagine you are shopping around a bit. I’m sure they can put a team together but the quality is going to be rough.

[zam]

2 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I guess we'll see after this week. They'll lose a few players but enough are staying and they are so deep that I still think they'll be better than Preds and SHAHA by a fairly large margin. They should pickup some AA kids that legitimately should've been playing AAA for the past few years. I don't think they are going to fall 40 or so spots in the rankings and be where Esmark, Preds, and SHAHA were last year. Just don't see that happening.

I think the saying is  "if you aren't getting better you're getting worse", or maybe its "if you ain't first you're last"? Lol

You can have a deep 09 team and replace a few people, but if you aren't picking up top line guys or a stud Goalie the team is likely going to take a step back.  I don't know any 09 players so I'm not familiar with the personnel, so I'm just speaking in generalities here.  But what I do know is there are going to be a dozen new teams that are going to pop up in the top 50 that didn't field teams below 14U, Shattuck and MN teams, North Dakota, Selects, Mount to name a few   And you can count on some Detroit teams consolidating players too. So dropping 40 spots isn't unlikely.

And let's be honest, most top youth teams are only as good as their top 5 or 6 players. The other players are interchangeable, they are just along for the ride. So a few AA players moving to AAA and vice versa isn't changing much.   Nobody ever won a national championship because they replaced their 9th forward. It's the same whether we are talking PIHL PAHL or AAA. 

[Carl Racki]

2 hours ago, zam said:

I think the saying is  "if you aren't getting better you're getting worse", or maybe its "if you ain't first you're last"? Lol

You can have a deep 09 team and replace a few people, but if you aren't picking up top line guys or a stud Goalie the team is likely going to take a step back.  I don't know any 09 players so I'm not familiar with the personnel, so I'm just speaking in generalities here.  But what I do know is there are going to be a dozen new teams that are going to pop up in the top 50 that didn't field teams below 14U, Shattuck and MN teams, North Dakota, Selects, Mount to name a few   And you can count on some Detroit teams consolidating players too. So dropping 40 spots isn't unlikely.

And let's be honest, most top youth teams are only as good as their top 5 or 6 players. The other players are interchangeable, they are just along for the ride. So a few AA players moving to AAA and vice versa isn't changing much.   Nobody ever won a national championship because they replaced their 9th forward. It's the same whether we are talking PIHL PAHL or AAA. 

Well said.  I think the 2009 Pens picked up four really good players from the 09 Vengeance and will be a better team.  I think the 09 Vengeance lost a lot of their top players but may retain some of their  players that tried out for Pens and got cut so guessing they will drop off a decent amount.  Esmark seems as though they lost a lot of their better players so that team will drop quite a bit if they even end up fielding a team.  The Preds seem like they are getting the most new players which will be an upgrade from their bottom players so they will get a little better.  Same with the 09 SHAHA team.  

In reality the rankings for these teams are a joke.  There is not much difference between the Vengeance 09 who were ranked 40ish and SHAHA 09 who was ranked 90ish.  If you look at the rankings math it is about a goal or goal and a half difference.  That is really nothing in my mind.  If fact toe 09 SHAHA beat the 09 Vengeance in a scrimmage late in this season.  It showed up briefly on MHR then disappeared.  My point is all these teams are very close in talent.  They all have some AAA players but not an entire team.  I think a lot of the movement is people tired of driving an hour to play on a team that would be similar 20 minutes away.  Its like a team ranked 300 vs 400.  It's 100 spots but probably a goal difference.  People get to caught up in the rankings. 90 and 40 are very close and depending on the day and goaltending  it will be a good game   Look at the Preds 09 team.  I guess people flocking there because they were the highest ranked but they lost to Esmark 09 and have a loosing record.  If you only play highly ranked teams it is EASY to hang in and look good!  Pens do it best.  Why do you think they won't play many games local or teams 30-60.  Worried about the rankings and looking good for prospects