USA Hockey player development camps

[RefHannah]

National camps start next week, with the U17s. Rosters are posted, I like that the teams are based on districts, But I'm guessing MidAm will struggle again. Do any local guys have a shot at making the Hlinka team? 

Younger rosters don't seem to be posted yet, although maybe they are hidden on the MidAm site somewhere. 

[aaaahockey]

25 minutes ago, RefHannah said:

National camps start next week, with the U17s. Rosters are posted, I like that the teams are based on districts, But I'm guessing MidAm will struggle again. Do any local guys have a shot at making the Hlinka team? 

Younger rosters don't seem to be posted yet, although maybe they are hidden on the MidAm site somewhere. 

Judging from some of the kids I saw were cut or taken by midam to attend the camp at a few different birthyears it is no wonder they struggle.   

[Rewster]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:34 AM, aaaahockey said:

Judging from some of the kids I saw were cut or taken by midam to attend the camp at a few different birthyears it is no wonder they struggle.   

Those who go to MidAm are based on their team / coaches nominating their players though, correct? At least that’s how I remembered it so many years ago.

If that’s the case, and if there’s a down year or two locally, I’m not sure that Ohio, WV, Kentucky and Indiana can cover the gaps adequately with their representatives over any extended period of time.

 

Also, how does it work if the kid’s billeting? Either a local kid going to MN, MI, or New England? Or, one from out of the area, but staying and playing here in Western PA?

[stickboy]

You try out in the district of your permanent residence. If you are from Pittsburgh, but billeting in say Michigan, you still go to Mid Ams. 

[aaaahockey]

10 hours ago, Rewster said:

Those who go to MidAm are based on their team / coaches nominating their players though, correct? At least that’s how I remembered it so many years ago.

If that’s the case, and if there’s a down year or two locally, I’m not sure that Ohio, WV, Kentucky and Indiana can cover the gaps adequately with their representatives over any extended period of time.

 

Also, how does it work if the kid’s billeting? Either a local kid going to MN, MI, or New England? Or, one from out of the area, but staying and playing here in Western PA?

Just to clarify I mean the ones who made it past the midam camp.  Some of the choices midam evaluators made were mind boggling.  There were obviously some snubs to make it to the midam camp to begin with but you would think they would be better at evaluating once you get in. 

[RefHannah]

15 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Just to clarify I mean the ones who made it past the midam camp.  Some of the choices midam evaluators made were mind boggling.  There were obviously some snubs to make it to the midam camp to begin with but you would think they would be better at evaluating once you get in. 

So the Mid Ams invite over 100 players to try out and send roughly 15 players to national camp.  My question when someone suggests there are snubs is this, was a "top ten" player left out of the tryout? Or not chosen for camp?

Because obviously these things are subjective, the 90th best kid might be "snubbed" for the 130th best kid.  Or the 18th best kid might get chosen over the 14th best kid. But I'm my experience the top kids still make it through. Am I wrong in this case?

[aaaahockey]

8 hours ago, RefHannah said:

So the Mid Ams invite over 100 players to try out and send roughly 15 players to national camp.  My question when someone suggests there are snubs is this, was a "top ten" player left out of the tryout? Or not chosen for camp?

Because obviously these things are subjective, the 90th best kid might be "snubbed" for the 130th best kid.  Or the 18th best kid might get chosen over the 14th best kid. But I'm my experience the top kids still make it through. Am I wrong in this case?

I know at least three kids across two birthyears who were in the top 10 of their birthyears and didn't make it out of the original midam camp let alone selected for us national development camp after the second tryout and that's based on both stats and general consensus.  

 

The process itself seems really vague.  Who are the evaluators?  What are the criteria they are looking for?  The website says they take into account season stats but that obviously isn't true based on the kids I'm talking about.  Those kids also scored in the top 10 of everyone at the first camp.  I also know kids who couldn't make aaa teams (even faux ones) made it past the first round. 

 

That being said I think it's all a moot point because, yes, if midam is lucky one kid might make it to the actual team, but the whole process seems shrouded in secrecy and silliness.  Seems like a giant money grab to me.  

[twoboys]

13 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I know at least three kids across two birthyears who were in the top 10 of their birthyears and didn't make it out of the original midam camp let alone selected for us national development camp after the second tryout and that's based on both stats and general consensus.  

 

The process itself seems really vague.  Who are the evaluators?  What are the criteria they are looking for?  The website says they take into account season stats but that obviously isn't true based on the kids I'm talking about.  Those kids also scored in the top 10 of everyone at the first camp.  I also know kids who couldn't make aaa teams (even faux ones) made it past the first round. 

 

That being said I think it's all a moot point because, yes, if midam is lucky one kid might make it to the actual team, but the whole process seems shrouded in secrecy and silliness.  Seems like a giant money grab to me.  

What birthyears?  Guessing it has to be 09 and 10.   

In my experience across two birth years, there is no way a top 10 player doesn't make the development camp.  Natty camp is a different story.  Being realistic, most top 10 players at the younger ages from Pittsburgh are with the Pens.  The 08 Vengeance from last year was the exception.  This will change as the kids get older.  And there is no way all of the Pens kids don't make the development camp.  I have heard about only one instance where this happened.

  

Edited June 25 by twoboys

[RefHannah]

In my experience the top 5 or 6 Pens Elite players on most of their teams are in their own level. Occasionally an exceptional player at another local organization could be in this group, a few years ago an 06 Shaha player, maybe a top Esmark player. These would be obvious choices for National Camp.

After this level there are probably another 30 local players that make up the next tier of players. These are the rest of the PPE team, the best players on other independent AAA teams, and maybe some exceptional AA players.  Any of these kids COULD make national camp, a couple will, but it wouldn't be expected.  

The next group of players and there are probably over a 100 of them are typical AA PAHL players. Very good players, successful high school players , they show glimpses of being a higher level, but aren't productive against higher level teams. Some get invited to MidAm tryouts, but many get left out. None are expected to advance to national camp, so it's hard to call them "snubs" But since they are similarly skilled, when some get invited to try out, the others feel they should also.

Just my humble option on the local landscape, each birth year differs a little. Agree or disagree?

[aaaahockey]

11 hours ago, RefHannah said:

In my experience the top 5 or 6 Pens Elite players on most of their teams are in their own level. 

Just my humble option on the local landscape, each birth year differs a little. Agree or disagree?

I guess I'm going to reframe this a bit because I really didn't mean it to be about specific players.  Yes - me and Joe Blow could go ahead and take the entire Pens team and send them on.  My complaint is that's what the evaluators seem to be doing without looking at season stats (even though they say they do) or even actual performance at the camp.  Anyone could do that.  If they can't sort through the next 25 or so kids without just doing what I could do without even showing up, that makes the camp a money grab.  

[dazedandconfused]

On 6/24/2024 at 10:03 PM, aaaahockey said:

least three kids across two birthyears who were in the top 10 of their birthyears

Where can one find these "Top 10 lists" of players, most of whom have barely reached puberty.

If these players are true top players, then they should take it as a slap in the face and make it impossible to be overlooked next time.

But this is where many players (because of the whiny parents) just sulk and complain.

Players who are driven will instead use this as motivation.

[twoboys]

15 hours ago, RefHannah said:

In my experience the top 5 or 6 Pens Elite players on most of their teams are in their own level. Occasionally an exceptional player at another local organization could be in this group, a few years ago an 06 Shaha player, maybe a top Esmark player. These would be obvious choices for National Camp.

After this level there are probably another 30 local players that make up the next tier of players. These are the rest of the PPE team, the best players on other independent AAA teams, and maybe some exceptional AA players.  Any of these kids COULD make national camp, a couple will, but it wouldn't be expected.  

The next group of players and there are probably over a 100 of them are typical AA PAHL players. Very good players, successful high school players , they show glimpses of being a higher level, but aren't productive against higher level teams. Some get invited to MidAm tryouts, but many get left out. None are expected to advance to national camp, so it's hard to call them "snubs" But since they are similarly skilled, when some get invited to try out, the others feel they should also.

Just my humble option on the local landscape, each birth year differs a little. Agree or disagree?

You also have to remember that Mid Am is more than Western Pennsylvania.  Columbus, Cleveland, Indy and Toledo all have talented players.  You may not even realize the Toledo kids are in the Mid Am pool since those kids are usually playing for Detroit area teams.  And by the time 15U rolls around you have probably forgot about some kids cause Indy only has a 16U team and some kids are playing 16U at Culver.

Zero chance a top 10 kid in Mid Am doesn't make the development camp.  Natty camp is a different story.  They tell you that basically half the kids that make natty camp one year don't make it the next.  In other words, they take different kids every year. 

And please don't cite stats.  We all know those are flawed.  A hattrick against a lousy team isn't as meaningful as a goal against a top 20 team.  Don't get me started on assists.  Those are the worst.   

[aaaahockey]

11 hours ago, twoboys said:

You also have to remember that Mid Am is more than Western Pennsylvania.  Columbus, Cleveland, Indy and Toledo all have talented players.  You may not even realize the Toledo kids are in the Mid Am pool since those kids are usually playing for Detroit area teams.  And by the time 15U rolls around you have probably forgot about some kids cause Indy only has a 16U team and some kids are playing 16U at Culver.

Zero chance a top 10 kid in Mid Am doesn't make the development camp.  Natty camp is a different story.  They tell you that basically half the kids that make natty camp one year don't make it the next.  In other words, they take different kids every year. 

And please don't cite stats.  We all know those are flawed.  A hattrick against a lousy team isn't as meaningful as a goal against a top 20 team.  Don't get me started on assists.  Those are the worst.   

Back to my question:  who is doing the evaluating?  What are they evaluating the players on?  

[zam]

I believe the evaluators are current and former coaches and other officials from USA hockey. 

They are evaluating talent, skill, performance, the same type criteria as any tryout for any team in any sport.  Looking to see who they think would form a competitive team for international competition. 

[aaaahockey]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:59 AM, zam said:

I believe the evaluators are current and former coaches and other officials from USA hockey. 

They are evaluating talent, skill, performance, the same type criteria as any tryout for any team in any sport.  Looking to see who they think would form a competitive team for international competition. 

Any documentation to back this up? 

[zam]

7 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Any documentation to back this up?

I'm not sure what you are looking for as documentation. It is basically what is stated on the USA Hockey and Midam websites.

I am interested in what your opposing viewpoint might be though. Are they people without a hockey background choosing the players with the fanciest gloves and helmets? 

 

 

[aaaahockey]

37 minutes ago, zam said:

I'm not sure what you are looking for as documentation. It is basically what is stated on the USA Hockey and Midam websites.

I am interested in what your opposing viewpoint might be though. Are they people without a hockey background choosing the players with the fanciest gloves and helmets? 

 

 

I didn't see anything on the midam website as to who the evaluators were.  I know the website is awful so that could be part of why I missed it but definitely didn't and still dont see it.  

[zam]

9 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

I didn't see anything on the midam website as to who the evaluators were.  I know the website is awful so that could be part of why I missed it but definitely didn't and still dont see it.  

You are correct I dont believe they list any evaluators by name.  I suppose for transparency they could list the guys who would be doing the evaluation, but might be for the best that they don't.  Id imagine there would be parents sending them stats, video clips, envelopes of money, etc. 

Maybe the system is corrupt, coaches choosing their own players and friends, that's why i was intersted in your opinion.

[aaaahockey]

3 hours ago, zam said:

You are correct I dont believe they list any evaluators by name.  I suppose for transparency they could list the guys who would be doing the evaluation, but might be for the best that they don't.  Id imagine there would be parents sending them stats, video clips, envelopes of money, etc. 

Maybe the system is corrupt, coaches choosing their own players and friends, that's why i was intersted in your opinion.

I don't think it's corrupt honestly.  If I had an opinion, and this is my opinion of midam in general, they have a bunch of old dinosaurs who always do things the way they have always been done.  If I had to guess at evaluators (since I have to) they are a bunch of old dinosaurs who do things the way they have always been done.  Again I don't want to make this about specific players but at one birthyear the consensus two best pens defensemen didn't make it.  That shocks me.  Some of the kids who did make it shocks me.  I could be totally wrong - maybe the consensus is wrong?  Maybe the evaluators are so good they see things other coaches and fans don't see.  Seriously.  

 

Transparency would help a lot.  If you say you are taking regular seasons into consideration, for instance, how do people in the top 10 scoring in the country get left out?  Maybe they are lazy defensively or there are other factors but it's very bizarre and without knowing what they are looking at, seems worthless.  

 

I would think evaluators at a USA hockey level they should have thick enough skins to ignore film or complaints  sent to them. Would be very curious who they are.  

[pickle]

Good topic and discussion so far.  The selection process for Select 14s and 15s camps/tryouts is notably distinct from that of the Select 16s and 17s due to the greater availability of data on older players.  Consequently, there are fewer opportunities at higher levels, such as 16s and 17s, where it is expected the top players have matriculated to the Tier I teams or prep teams or even junior teams compared to the lower levels of 14s and 15s, where a larger pool of players are invited to ensure a more thorough evaluation and get more looks at players who may not be as well known. This is particularly important for identifying standout Tier II players who might otherwise go unnoticed during the season.

Evaluators for the camps come from diverse backgrounds, including coaches from various Tier I programs across the district, regular Mid-Am district evaluators (I am guessing referred to here as the "dinosaurs"), and other representatives from other district affiliated hockey programs like high schools and colleges. These evaluators provide a mix of perspectives, though some may have more knowledge of the player base than others.

For the 14s and 15s, during the initial round of evaluations in Sylvania, typically 8-12 evaluators focus on skaters, with an additional 3 specifically dedicated to goalies. This ensures a comprehensive assessment of each player's skills and potential. In subsequent rounds, the number of evaluators is reduced as you don't have as much player base to cover and also to maintain more impartiality and try to avoid biases associated with specific programs as there is attempt for more independence and partiality.

Player selection for the initial tryout camps is primarily based on evaluations and rankings provided by their head coaches, which you would expect the coaches to take their regular season statistics into consideration, but that is all the further that statistics come into play.  I don't understand where people get this "taking regular season statistics into consideration".  You can't compare statistics across teams with varying levels of competition and skill.  Statistics of a Tier I player on a top Tier I program can't be compared to a Tier II team.  Teams do not play in competitive leagues and strength of schedules can vary significantly. 

In previous years, evaluators utilized detailed spreadsheets to rate players (+/-) on specific skills like skating, shooting, puck handling, hockey sense, and competitiveness among others.  The data was all fed into a computer and it spit out the top players, much like a bell curve.  However, recent changes have shifted towards a more subjective evaluation approach. Evaluators now focus on identifying players who consistently stand out and make an impact during the sessions/games, akin to selecting "three stars" in NHL matches. They identify the top 8-10 players from each session/game, regardless of team (can all be on same team or mix between the two).  This method prioritizes qualitative assessments over quantitative metrics, ensuring a more nuanced evaluation of each player's performance.  It also keeps evaluators focused on the play and looking across players rather than trying to pick out certain players and looking at a particular skill in effort to complete their spreadsheet and in process missing plays by other players along the way.  The data from all the evaluators is still fed into a computer and it spits out the top players to advance.  Some players stand out all sessions/games, some may only make it on three, others two and others one or even none.  Again, you still tend to get a bell curve and you are only going for the top half, so having a few good shifts or scoring a couple random goals may only get you so far.  Also to note, all evaluation forms have the evaluator name and contact information on them.  They are not anonymous.  Again, you expect to see consensus across multiple evaluators across multiple games.  Any evaluation that is suspect may have follow-up with an evaluator and any suspect rankings may get removed from process and evaluator may not be welcomed back, etc. So it is in their best interest to do their best.

Following the initial round, approximately 70 players, representing about 50% of the initial tryout invites, advance to the second round. There the focus narrows to selecting the Top 15 players - Mid-Am is allocated about about 8-9 forwards, 5-6 defense and only 1 goalie spot, which is about 20-25% of those who make it to this stage - a little bit harder for goalies with only the 1 spot.  Both the 14s and 15s get rated and ranked, even though the 14s don't advance to a national camp.  The 15s advance to the national "camp", which brings good exposure itself as this is an important year for the 15s, and where the scouts for major juniors (USHL), major prep teams and other scouts for even colleges start to identify and target players.  However, it is the older "festivals" at 16s and 17s is where players are working to earn spots on the national "select" teams to represent their country in the respective international tournaments.  This is not to be confused with the NTDP.  Players are not working for spots on the NTDP from these PDCs and Festivals - although not saying stand out performances in these events could come into play - just saying the NTDP is a different process.  Also, for those not familiar the "development camps" are more focused on development and include practice sessions and tend to focus on individual player skills and provide feedback on improvement.  The "festivals" are more about the competition and intend to serve more as a platform for showcasing talent in a more competitive environment.

As players progress through subsequent age groups, competition for selection becomes increasingly fierce. The evaluation process evolves accordingly, with an emphasis on identifying players who demonstrate consistent improvement and adaptability across multiple years.  While the system isn't perfect, I disagree that Mid-Am is not committed to sending their best players to advance and represent the district at national events.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to DM me.

[aaaahockey]

Thanks for the most detail I've been able to find to date in this.  Not sure I agree with your approach to change to something akin to a "3 stars" approach but at least you have specifics in how it's done.  I'd recommend putting the details on your website.  

Edited June 30 by aaaahockey

[RefHannah]

22 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Again I don't want to make this about specific players but at one birthyear the consensus two best pens defensemen didn't make it.  That shocks me.  Some of the kids who did make it shocks me.  I could be totally wrong - maybe the consensus is wrong?

In my experience the defensemen that show well in these type tryouts are the flashy selfish ones.  Pickle's post (THANK YOU!)  suggests they note the players that stand out like a "3 stars of the game". So a defenseman that does multiple escape moves in his own end and skates the puck up the ice and gets a goal or assist is going to look a lot more impressive than your "consensus top pens" that don't ever give up any scoring chances and just move the puck up to their teamates. That same flashy defenseman might be on the ice for every goal against but that isn't noticed as much as his skating around with the puck. That's just my guess not knowing the particular players or their style of play. 

 

Thanks again Pickles for the Comprehensive explanation of the process! And if my speculation about defenseman is wrong feel free to correct me. 

 

 

[RefHannah]

U17 camp is over and the MidAm team unfortunately finished near the bottom and doesn't appear that they had any players selected to move on to the Hlinka Camp. Was anybody there? Any surprises? They take nearly 40 guys, you would think atleast 1 would advance.

Next up the 16 camp, anybody have expectations for them?

[stickboy]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:18 AM, RefHannah said:

U17 camp is over and the MidAm team unfortunately finished near the bottom and doesn't appear that they had any players selected to move on to the Hlinka Camp. Was anybody there? Any surprises? They take nearly 40 guys, you would think atleast 1 would advance.

Next up the 16 camp, anybody have expectations for them?

Not surprised. Local 07 birth year not that strong.  08 should have a better showing. I think they had like 8 western pa players drafted to USHL. 

[RefHannah]

Looks like a better showing for the MidAm 16s at national camp. A few Pens made the final all star game. I would have thought a couple additional Pittsburgh kids might have been contenders also based on some of the social media posts through the week of course those aren't the most reliable. Did anybody watch any of the games. Has the final team been announced?