Rewster

The whole point about the Preds AA PAHL team being unquestionably better than their AAA team speaks volumes about their program as a whole. Not to mention that it indicates that the players and family’s “in the know” understand the price points and how the return on investment (or lack thereof) is a vacuum of spent money for nothing of significance in return. When the 18U AA team is receiving consideration and attention from higher level scouts, but their AAA team is not…well, there’s that “situation” and whatever label we would want to call it.

As HatTrick pointed out…Total Package Hockey I just looked at their site again and noticed how they have grown their “campuses” since I looked at it last year. Interestingly, TPH just established a Philadelphia campus this past November (technically, they’re located in Chester, PA): https://www.tphacademy.com/philadelphia/ Not only does that facility looks really nice, and by having 4 sheets of ice…they can become a destination for Tier 1 hockey and establish themselves as Philly’s preeminent T1 AAA organization. I say this because it is becoming apparent to me that the new shine is wearing off when it comes to PPE and their ability to attract the best hockey players in the region. The NHLs Penguins don’t have the same drawing power that it did just a few years ago; especially when coupled with UPMC Lemieux facility and North Catholic/Excel Academy. The price is beginning to lose its luster when the return on investment is dropping off. I could be wrong. I hope that I am. But, when I see the model used by PPE is pretty much in every major city now; I have to believe that the novelty is not going to resonate with the best players from across the country like it used to. Not when they can do something very similar and do it much closer to their own home.

Their summary just caught me up to speed in a couple of paragraphs… I think that’s what they call, “unintended consequences.” While attempting to point out problems without real solutions; the end result is actually galvanizing the topic at hand. Which doesn’t really make it go away…but only adds to its attention. In any event, I’d add to this by pointing out that other “developing hockey markets” in the states are trying to model their AAA programs similarly to PPE (or vice-versa). TPH has academy’s located in FLA, AZ, Tennessee, and several places in the Midwest (Michigan, Iowa, Ohio, etc) as well. I’m not sure if it’s sustainable. But, it is occurring in other regions in the country.

Does Tenband.tv cover/stream any of the north hills schools games (or anywhere else)? I honestly don’t know. I have to believe that there’s sponsorship & advertising dollars involved. Naturally, that would dictate what games/schools get covered through their online streaming platform. They had their own direct broadcast or an affiliate’s broadcast of all of the Penguins Cup games and Pennsylvania Cup games. In fact, they have been streaming PIHL games for several years. It’s just like any other live sporting events that I’ve seen broadcast or streamed. The primary games that are covered are the ones that receive the sponsorship & advertising dollars.

There are several great points that you made. Inevitably, everyone’s pursuit of playing at the highest level, with/against the best competition, and in the highest profile league possible (or school) gradually comes into focus. These are the same internal struggles that players, families, parents have to come to terms with at some point. I remember hearing Chuck Noll’s saying (with regards to athletic careers): “Maybe it’s now time to get on with you life’s work.” Meaning, competitive athletics is such a short period of time in one’s life. For better or worse, either try to get as much of it as you can, or cut it off when it’s apparent that you’re the at the best as you’ll ever get.

This ought to be good… I will start by answering part of the question: Pittsburgh Penguins Elite are usually 1 or 1A in the region and Esmark Stars are 1B or 2…historically speaking.

That’s a great question. It’s blurry anymore as I don’t think that there’s anymore Junior “B” leagues (or Junior C for that matter) here in the states. I’m sure that there are others on here that can explain it much better than I can. In fact, I’ve had to do research multiple times this year just to figure out what junior leagues/teams exist within the USA—and am still not totally clear. But, to answer your question (correct me if I’m wrong): In the USA, Junior A is basically now the umbrella term for 20U. It’s like, there was suddenly a stigma, and nobody wanted to be labeled as being affiliated with Junior B (or Jr C). So, they eliminated any misinterpretation that the teams/leagues would carry as being “sub-Jr A.” Junior A leagues/teams are all still separated by the customary Tier system…Tier 1: USHL; Tier 2: NAHL; Tier 3: EHL, NA3HL, USPHL. I don’t understand the nuts and bolts with qualifications that distinguish USA sanctioned Junior hockey leagues vs independent leagues. Don’t ask me about Canada as I need a road map just to begin to understand their seemingly endless onion layers of Junior leagues.

That is utterly insane. The market will not bear that kind of price hike for nothing more than a color scheme and name change. What are they getting that would justify that absurdity? A team bus? A new sauna and jacuzzi? It’s gotta be more than just 2-3 additional private locker rooms. “How about…for the low-low Tier 2 hockey fee price of $4,500…we will do the unthinkable…we will create, and implement, the plan for the formation of—‘A’ team within ‘THE’ team.’ This could be ground-breaking stuff, if true. This obviously ain’t your run-of-the-mill, grand-daddy inspired, hodgepodge of random equipment-wearing, players that we’re accustomed to seeing in the PAHL.

AAAA is correct…at least from my non-analytical scientific data & information extrapolation techniques (*patent pending) that knows (at least what it once required) to make a legitimate Top 20 ACHA D1 school’s roster compared to now. The résumé’s of prospective ACHA D1, D2, or even D3 that step on the ice for tryouts today are so much more competitive (at least on paper, which could be saying something too). There’s surely marginal AAA players on weak a** cheese teams that barely play on the 4th line on their midget team coming in with nothing more than the third “A” on their hockey bag and nothing else to back it up. Then again, it’s *mostly politics we’re talking about here anyways. It always is, and such is life… Everyone can’t be naive to believe that hockey is immune to that caveat. Case in point: You got a recognizable hockey family name (that played in the NHL)? Bingo, you’re on the team! Or, in some cases it just takes some extra dough to grease the head honcho’s palms “for that little extra look-see” during tryouts to make sure he sees Johnny’s number. Its simply not an even playing field with a tight, vacuum-sealed lid on top where everyone could see and tell who was the best of the best. The consistently Top ACHA coaches will tell you where they recruit from. It’s not mostly juniors and seniors in high school like we see in other sports. It’s mostly Jr A. The bottom line that I’ve heard is: If you could take that same player either straight outta high school; OR, 1-2 years removed from HS (still as a freshman with 4 years eligibility), who are you gonna take? Considering my maturity level when I was 17-18 years old vs when I was at age 20…it was huge gap just in personal responsibility. There’s always outliers…but from the limited number of ACHA coaches I’ve talked with… it’s trending where they’re primarily looking Junior A as their recruiting base. I think that it’s crazy as well. But, it’s the reality of the situation.

Yes, you’re exactly right…hockey is an entirely different animal. And it has only snowballed into this gigantic enigma that has (I’m guessing) mirrored Canadian U-Sports in terms of taking seasoned 20- year old Junior A players; instead of immediately recruiting 18-year old high school players. Even in this area, a lot the current ACHA schools have evolved from an “idea” of starting a program, to assembling a coaching staff and players in terms of without any recruiting or prior student athlete player knowledge. They would simply form a club team. Then roll the dice on finding already enrolled students that could pose as functional players that can skate and shoot. I remember when Pitt, and even Liberty University basically launched their programs from the ground up. Now, in order to seriously be considered as a player on a top 25 program, you have to pretty much play Junior A; or at least AAA and sit out a year or so. I was talking to an ACHA coach that was at the Pennsylvania Cup trilogy of games 2 years ago in Philadelphia. I remember asking him if he was scouting or actively talking to any players in the games. Surprisingly to me, he said no. He was there as a fan and to support a relative that was playing. He said that very same thing about only scouting Jr A players anymore. I didn’t realize how fast the competition and arms race that this sport has morphed into. It’s crazy to me.

This whole thread seems like it abruptly turned into Western Pennsylvania Youth Hockey’s version of “Grumpy old Men.” Frankly, it reminds me of a multi-generational commiseration of the “back-in-my-day” old farts sipping coffee and telling stories about how they should have listened to their mom & dad and played baseball (or football); instead wasting their childhood years and dreams by playing hockey in Pittsburgh…since, ya know…’nobody from Pittsburgh ever gets noticed, scouted, or goes anywhere.’ I can still picture so many people saying, “Sorry kid, you should have been born further north if you wanna play hockey…yeah, you gotta be from Canada, New England, Michigan, or Minnesota if you want to ever go anywhere in this sport.” It’s weird how there’s never any mention about how quickly this region has progressed from next to nothing as a legitimate hockey region—when discussed by all of the blue-blood and traditional North American hockey markets (i.e. Boston/New England, Buffalo/Western NY, Detroit/Michigan, Minnesota, Toronto/Ontario, Montreal/Quebec, even Western Canada). It’s truly included in those circles now and accepted as such when considering the talent pool of hockey players that come out of Pittsburgh…only not on par with their overall numbers, of course. Put it another way, it appears that Pittsburgh is way past the emerging hockey market problems. You don’t ever hear stories about people complaining about 5:00 AM available ice slots; only having 3-4 ice rinks available within an hour drive; or having generations of parents that never skated or played hockey and having to resort to being self-taught… or receive marginal hockey knowledge and coaching from guys that were only qualified because they were born in Canada or Maine.

Meh, now you could very well be right about the 16U AA PAHL hockey quality being terrible. I have not kept close tabs on the skill level disparity across the board, or the coaching levels, competition, recent history, etc. I know that this year’s PAHL 18U AA hockey was honestly some of the best Midget Major hockey that I have seen as a conglomerate in this region. Armstrong is obviously the best as they have gone toe-to-toe with just about every reputable Tier 2 18U AA league in the nation; and either won, or tied. Considering that Armstrong was this year’s PAHLs 18U AA measuring stick. There were 4 or sometimes 5 league teams in the PAHL that could have been legitimate players in Tier 2 18U Nationals. Maybe this is the culmination year for PAHL and the entirety of their divisions and organizations. It could be the brilliance of the bright flame going out in PAHL 18U AA…never to be rivaled again. I’d argue this season was …possibly/probably the best “ever” that came together in the history of the league’s apex age classification.

I believe that “crawl” that you are describing is also known as protecting one’s own self interest. Sometimes, it’s actually not the ones “standing proud” that win. As the Gambler once said…you’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, and know when to run. I’ve witnessed the “proud standing” ones that find themselves on a train bound to nowhere.

I would think that a lot (or most) of the teams would charter a bus. At least those based East of the Mississippi River. I’m only guessing based on showcase tournaments.

At the very least, Liberty appears to be the current incarnation of ACHA college hockey’s version of “how to build a hockey powerhouse program through the same principles that the USA military implements everywhere it goes…spend an absurd amount of dollars acquiring an absurdly excessive amount of superior assets that will simply overwhelm any competition.” It appears to be a sound strategy if money is not an object.

I don’t know Jeff Docking. I never met him. All I do know, is that he almost pulled off the exact same feat at W&J as he is currently doing at Adrian. Just didn’t quite get the overall push like he wanted from the school. As far as I know/remember, he was thee entire reason W&J had a brief, but illustrious ACHA college hockey flash in the pan. He was the reason why W&J acquired their own Iceoplex locker room, training room,, everything that comes with a traditional legitimate college hockey program during a time where it just didn’t happen (unless you were NCAA).

Does anyone remember Life University back in the 1990s early 2000s? They “were” (I honestly don’t know anymore) a chiropractic school in Georgia that somehow managed to lure in a team full of ringers from Canada that nobody knew anything about. They dominated out of nowhere for several seasons.

Are we talking about one game? You know (as well as I know) that it “could” be the #1 team in the nation playing #50 from EBF Wherever, Iowa. If the inferior team has a goalie standing on his/her head whilst making unconscious saves on multiple occasions…and team Numero Uno starts having internal struggles with who gets the puck and coach starts panicking by switching up linemates (only to hinder offensive production and impede defensive responsibilities) it can inevitably come down to who’s going to blink first. When you have that large of a disparity in rankings…and the longer the time goes where the margin on the scoreboard is negligible…the more likely that the higher ranked team implodes and the lower ranked team builds esteem and momentum.

I think that there’s two different understanding of the title “MidAms” on this thread. One is the MidAm tournament that leads directly into Nationals. Tier 1 and Tier 2. The other is individual tryouts for MidAms that lead to the National Developmental Team. While scrolling through this thread it’s challenging to follow along. Different interpretations by a lot of people. With that said. Armstrong 18U AA wins today against Mt Lebanon 18U AA 5-2 (empty net goal) to move on to nationals. The competition at by all of the representative PAHL teams was outstanding, in my opinion. This season was one of the best in terms of competitive balance by the top 5-6 teams in AA as I can recall. It’s a shame that only one PAHL team gets to go on to nationals. This league was probably as deep as its ever been. Best of luck to the PAHL 18U AA Champions— Armstrong Arrows as they move on to USA Nationals in Delmont, PA.

Yes, I remember when I first learned about the joint school in Indianapolis. But, it looks like they are about to abruptly end the school. They still can’t get along, I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️ https://fox59.com/news/indiana-university-and-purdue-officially-are-set-to-end-iupui-next-summer/#:~:text=IUPUI will officially end on,businesses and communities of Indianapolis.

I appreciate what you’re saying. I understand that there could potentially be a couple of unruly parents who complain. That’s true…but it’s already true. There’s already plenty of parents complaining to the coaches (and organizational board members) about playing time, line mates, position changes, defensive pairings, offensive attack schemes, breakouts, power play and PK theories, goaltending matchups, uniform color combinations, even injury severity scale and concussion evaluations, etc. There’s also people complaining about how some rinks have their own referees that prefer to dish out their home cooking differently to their guests. There’s always going to be complaints from parents. It’s always happened. The question I have: What happens when we’re at the crossroads where the parents start complaining about how Fair Play Points are tabulated and the evidence of their existence? Are we expecting everyone to accept the assumption that whomever is keeping track of the Fair Play Points number at every league game is going to be 100% accurate all season? How can you know that for certain? I’m not sure about everyone else, but, sometimes I like to count/add things up on my own. Without having someone tell me that it is what they say it is. All I’m saying is that there’s got to be some transparency here. I’m not talking about the 10U, or 12U, or even the 14U age groups and publishing all of their statistics. I’m only suggesting that the way that the PAHL has been reactionary in removing game sheets (which also include the individual player and team penalty minutes) is counterintuitive to even what “Fair” means. Remember, these become more important as the levels of play become more competitive and the talent pool of distinguishing characteristics thins out. It might be more difficult for a goal scorer to stand out during a AAA/Jr tryout that consists of 100 kids and only gets few shifts here and there with kids that he’s never played with. But, if he has the recent (and somewhat documented) history that shows he’s a goal-scorer (or playmaker, or whatever) from a competitive league…that will demonstrate more of an overall (and helpful picture) than the snapshot of a tryout where they’re trying to even figure out what position everyone is playing on their team. My bottom line is: I hope that the PAHL does an internal evaluation and compare it with best practices that other leagues have been using for a while.

Yeah, I know. The CHMA conference sucks. It was a rivalry joke between Purdue and Indiana. When you’re in western PA and say “Indiana” you have to preface that you’re talking about the state of Indiana, or Indiana University. Otherwise, most people assume that you’re referring to Indiana, PA. Which, was part of the obviously bad joke on my end. Purdue University (Branch Campus) vs Indiana University (of Pennsylvania). It would probably go over better in Indiana—I mean the state, not the town in PA.

Wait, wait a minute. Purdue has an oblique directional school?…that has a hockey team? Like, Purdue University…The Boilermakers, in Indiana…only with a twisted sub-directional name after it. I bet that when the locals heard that Indiana University of Pennsylvania was coming in, it really pissed off the Purdue alumni. They were probably thinking that Indiana University was able to conquer and establish a branch school in Pennsylvania. No wonder the lob sided score.

Right. Or just form a new team that’s in Pittsburgh and in the same league…only run it ethically and legitimately. I mean, how much can the franchise fee actually cost? $250?

I’d say that there’s probably a sizable disparity at 3A and 2A divisions as well. I mean, the coaching staffs at all of the 3A schools really have the ability (or at least a lot of leeway) in hand-picking the best players in Eastern Pennsylvania and New Jersey. They aren’t hemmed in by school district borders with nothing but the luck of the draw when they see who shows up at tryouts. I’m not seeing the even playing field when you have Flyers Cup 3A coach at Parochial Prep HS show up at a Bantam (or maybe younger than 14U) showcase with a bunch of enticing Parochial Prep merch, and freebies while sniffing out the top end hockey players and parents…telling them that he can assist with admissions, fundraising, sponsorships for their son and how it’s so much better playing hockey with him at Parochial Prep rather than playing at Hoboken HS. I don’t know what the solution is exactly; but you gotta believe that there’s the potential to have all kinds of corruption going on when you basically have a small college atmosphere and can recruit players under the guise of “Student-Athletes.” I could be way off base (I do not have any first hand knowledge—just stories I’ve heard from others). But, I think that it’s naive to think that there’s no in-season tampering, or maybe even under the table money exchanges going to some players for “X”, or for after school jobs that don’t exist. It really is something special when the occasional Pens Cup winner bests Eastern PAs Flyers Cup champion.