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On 9/20/2022 at 7:34 PM, Danner27 said:

Nahl is a tier 2 junior league - not pay to play. On average the top 3 players on each nahl team have a legitimate chance. 

Nah, many more players than an average of the top 3.   This is just last year - during covid rules and a transfer portal. 

http://nahl.com/player-advancement/college/index.cfm?season=2021

 

 

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On 9/20/2022 at 11:27 PM, Happy Hockey Fan said:

If someone wants the experience of playing juniors and is willing to pay why shouldn’t they? I know a couple of kids that did it for a year or two and then moved on to their life. I know kids that are willing to do it, and parents willing to pay for it, in order to earn a chance to play at higher levels of club hockey. Why does it bother you so much. I bet 95% of kids that play tier 3 are realistic about where it will take them. 

Right! God forbid a kid (er, young man) still have the drive to play for a National championship, or want to compete or continue to stay active, represent his school in a sport he loves.  So now we've moved from the faux AAA argument to Div 3 is a waste as well.  For Pete's sake.....let the kids play without dismissing their dreams. Every one of them works hard to make a roster spot on a div. 3 team as well.  Clearly some of you only played or had kids play for the status - if they couldn't be the top it was all a waste.   pffff .....it all leads to bear league even for Sid Crosby. ! Holy heck...

 

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16 minutes ago, whatever said:

Right! God forbid a kid (er, young man) still have the drive to play for a National championship, or want to compete or continue to stay active, represent his school in a sport he loves.  So now we've moved from the faux AAA argument to Div 3 is a waste as well.  For Pete's sake.....let the kids play without dismissing their dreams. Every one of them works hard to make a roster spot on a div. 3 team as well.  Clearly some of you only played or had kids play for the status - if they couldn't be the top it was all a waste.   pffff .....it all leads to bear league even for Sid Crosby. ! Holy heck...

 

Tier 3 juniors not Div 3 NCAA. Just making sure everyone is on the same page. 

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22 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

     I don't care how people waste their money.  I just try to educate the ones that don't want to waste their money and are on here for that reason.

      Telling people they have to play tier 3 juniors to play ACHA hockey is REALLY bad information and promoting uneducated people to waste money. I would love to know what local ACHA teams are telling kids to go play tier 3 juniors to be considered for the team????  Very bad information in my opinion.  

I have heard of top ACHA teams wanting their players to experience juniors before they will talk to them. Ohio Bobcats for example, have some kids from Western , Pa. Only a handful didn't play juniors. Again, it comes down to whether your kid wants to continue to grind and your willingness as a parent to fund that if you have to pay to play .  There have been alot of highly skilled kids playing tier 3 juniors because covid screwed things up for a while and changed all the rules. Heck, there are kids that are div. 1 players playing div. 3 because covid changed the rules.   Things are still sorting themselves out because of the pandemic.   

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In the spirit of making a knowledgeable consumer, this can all be summed up to Buyer Beware. 
 

No one can say a kid or a team should or shouldn’t compete at a certain level. Maybe for some reasons it’s the best fit for them. 
 

…but people also need to be realists and know what they’re getting into and know what they’re actually getting. 
 

If you’re going solely off MHR and National wins, that’s going to give you one answer. If you have a borderline AAA/AA kid that would benefit more from actually getting into a team and facing AAA competition than they would being a top 1-5 on a AA team, it’ll give you an another answer. 
 

There are some teams, organizations and parents who just want the ego stroke of saying your AAA. There are some that truly are national powerhouses. Then there are others that do develop kids but just aren’t national competitors. And yes there are some that are pure money grabs. 
 

Idk any organization well enough to pigeon-hole any of them. But I’m sure they all fit somewhere around that continuum.  Unfortunately or fortunately the free market will dictate the number of teams. 
 

Personally I do think there are too many AAA teams, AA teams etc. I think there should be more in-house and cost effective programs and less travel and have travel reserved more for truly the top 50 percent of an areas players divided up from AAA to B because the output of time, money, and travel for travel hockey doesn’t give a reasonable return on investment. 
 

That being said, that will never happen. Just my two cents. 

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10 hours ago, Puck01 said:

I was just reviewing the USHL tournament in Pittsburgh for the 16UAAA. Noticed there are 26 teams but no SHAHA anyone know why they are not included? I would assume the Pens would want revenge? Does PPE organize this or have any say in what teams are invited? At least the Barons are included.

I replied earlier, not sure why it didn’t take. 
 

if nothing has changed, ppe is just the host. The ushl puts on this promotion showcase for their leauge. They do a few of these a year in different cities. They only invite the “top” youth programs. The ushl coaches and scouts will be there. This is another reason in a long list why PPE is where your kid needs to play in western pa if you or your kid think they have a chance at anything after youth hockey. I don’t really like saying it, it’s just the truth. 

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2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

I replied earlier, not sure why it didn’t take. 
 

if nothing has changed, ppe is just the host. The ushl puts on this promotion showcase for their leauge. They do a few of these a year in different cities. They only invite the “top” youth programs. The ushl coaches and scouts will be there. This is another reason in a long list why PPE is where your kid needs to play in western pa if you or your kid think they have a chance at anything after youth hockey. I don’t really like saying it, it’s just the truth. 

I posted this today under one of the other comments. This might be a good follow through to your comment. I’m sure I’m missing a few players.   A majority have Pens Elite in common whether it be a stepping stone or a longer stay :

There are quit a few local kids playing Div. 1 and Div. 3 hockey right now.  

NCAA Div. 1

Dalton Hunter – Hornets, Pens Elite, NAHL, USHL,  Mercyhurst

Austen Swankler - Pens Elite, Oakland Junior Grizzlies, USHL, Erie Otters, Bowling Green

Alex Savagno – Pens Elite, USHL, Penn State

Matthew Sutton – Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, USHL, Brown University

Dominic Schimizzi – Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, NAHL, Robert Morris

Christian Gorschak – Esmark, NAHL, Niagara

Brian Kramer – Pens Elite, NAHL, USHL, Robert Morris, AIC

Dustin Geragach –  Esmark, NAHL, Mercyhurst

 

NCAA Div. 3

Jackson Krock – Pens Elite, NCDC, NAHL, Hamilton

Jared Gerger – Predators, OJHL, NAHL, Lake Forest

Tyler Love – Pens Elite, Nahl, Robert Morris, Univ. of Wisconsin-Eau Claire

Dawson Sciarrino - Esmark, Pens Elite, NAHL, Steven's Point

 

Female:

Serena Slursarcyk – Pens Elite, Robert Morris

Kaitlyn Schooley - Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, Robert Morris

 

Jordan Timmons – Esmark, Pens Elite, USHL, Robert Morris , LIU, Echl

 

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9 hours ago, whatever said:

I have heard of top ACHA teams wanting their players to experience juniors before they will talk to them. Ohio Bobcats for example, have some kids from Western , Pa. Only a handful didn't play juniors. Again, it comes down to whether your kid wants to continue to grind and your willingness as a parent to fund that if you have to pay to play .  There have been alot of highly skilled kids playing tier 3 juniors because covid screwed things up for a while and changed all the rules. Heck, there are kids that are div. 1 players playing div. 3 because covid changed the rules.   Things are still sorting themselves out because of the pandemic.   

Again, please tell me what local ACHA teams are telling kids to go play Mickey mouse, pay to play juniors, before coming to their programs????   None.  Not Duquesne, RMU, Pitt, Slippery Rock, IUP, ......  All local ACHA teams.   I can't believe people actually think this.  Sadly I have heard parents say that they are playing on these faux AAA teams so hopefully they make a faux (tier 3) junior team and then can play ACHA.  That is absolutely hilarious!  Again, if you are in the top half they don't care if you only played highschool.

 

     By the way I have never heard of the Ohio Bobcats.  They are actually ACHA ELITE not just ACHA.  

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18 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

Again, please tell me what local ACHA teams are telling kids to go play Mickey mouse, pay to play juniors, before coming to their programs????   None.  Not Duquesne, RMU, Pitt, Slippery Rock, IUP, ......  All local ACHA teams.   I can't believe people actually think this.  Sadly I have heard parents say that they are playing on these faux AAA teams so hopefully they make a faux (tier 3) junior team and then can play ACHA.  That is absolutely hilarious!  Again, if you are in the top half they don't care if you only played highschool.

 

     By the way I have never heard of the Ohio Bobcats.  They are actually ACHA ELITE not just ACHA.  

In the opinions of this discussion I assumed we all realize you don’t need juniors to play at IUP, Pitt etc . It’s the equivalent of playing club.  I’ve known a lot of kids that have enjoyed those programs.  I assumed you all were referring to ACHA programs like Liberty or Ohio Bobcats.  Those ACHA programs are built with mostly former junior players.  

I like the context of buyer beware.  Clearly from the list above not many make it to div 1 and only a handful more to NCAA div 3 schools. If you don’t mind your kid NOT being a top player and aren’t in a hurry to push him out the door, can afford to give him the opportunity, and he wants to experience  juniors - then so be it. It’s a unique , one of a kind experience. No other sport replicates it. 

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45 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

Again, please tell me what local ACHA teams are telling kids to go play Mickey mouse, pay to play juniors, before coming to their programs????   None.  Not Duquesne, RMU, Pitt, Slippery Rock, IUP, ......  All local ACHA teams.   I can't believe people actually think this.  Sadly I have heard parents say that they are playing on these faux AAA teams so hopefully they make a faux (tier 3) junior team and then can play ACHA.  That is absolutely hilarious!  Again, if you are in the top half they don't care if you only played highschool.

 

     By the way I have never heard of the Ohio Bobcats.  They are actually ACHA ELITE not just ACHA.  

If acha junior teams are telling your player they have to play juniors to make the team, the hypothesis is easy to come to...they are currently just not going to make the team as all of the players who drank the Kool aid and payed to play juniors are now going to acha teams for an education....it's a vicious money making circle....

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2 hours ago, whatever said:

In the opinions of this discussion I assumed we all realize you don’t need juniors to play at IUP, Pitt etc . It’s the equivalent of playing club.  I’ve known a lot of kids that have enjoyed those programs.  I assumed you all were referring to ACHA programs like Liberty or Ohio Bobcats.  Those ACHA programs are built with mostly former junior players.  

I like the context of buyer beware.  Clearly from the list above not many make it to div 1 and only a handful more to NCAA div 3 schools. If you don’t mind your kid NOT being a top player and aren’t in a hurry to push him out the door, can afford to give him the opportunity, and he wants to experience  juniors - then so be it. It’s a unique , one of a kind experience. No other sport replicates it. 

Whatever, do you have a hockey background?  Look on the web. Duquesne, Pitt, IUP, RMU are all ACHA D1 teams.  When you say ACHA it is basically club hockey.  You keep posting on here you need to play juniors to play ACHA hockey.  Maybe I don't know about the ACHA D1 elite league that you must be talking about.  Again, all those teams I believe still play ACHA D1 and you don't need to play Juniors to play.  Holy cow.

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5 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

Whatever, do you have a hockey background?  Look on the web. Duquesne, Pitt, IUP, RMU are all ACHA D1 teams.  When you say ACHA it is basically club hockey.  You keep posting on here you need to play juniors to play ACHA hockey.  Maybe I don't know about the ACHA D1 elite league that you must be talking about.  Again, all those teams I believe still play ACHA D1 and you don't need to play Juniors to play.  Holy cow.

Holy Cow is right.  I literally just said in my response to you that the ACHA you were referring to doesn’t require Junior Hockey experience. ex… IUP.    The higher level - ACHA - does.  

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7 minutes ago, whatever said:

Holy Cow is right.  I literally just said in my response to you that the ACHA you were referring to doesn’t require Junior Hockey experience. ex… IUP.    The higher level - ACHA - does.  

Holy Cow again, they all play in the same league!!!!!!!   Ohio plays Pitt, WVU,....   The same league!!!!!   

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Never mind, everyone send your kid to tier 3 pay to play juniors if they are to have a shot at playing ACHA D1 elite!!!   (Obviously this is sarcasm).  Who knows they may get drafted into the NHL from the ACHA D1 ELITE team!  Money well spent then!!

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3 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Again, please tell me what local ACHA teams are telling kids to go play Mickey mouse, pay to play juniors, before coming to their programs????   None.  Not Duquesne, RMU, Pitt, Slippery Rock, IUP, ......  All local ACHA teams.   I can't believe people actually think this.  Sadly I have heard parents say that they are playing on these faux AAA teams so hopefully they make a faux (tier 3) junior team and then can play ACHA.  That is absolutely hilarious!  Again, if you are in the top half they don't care if you only played highschool.

 

     By the way I have never heard of the Ohio Bobcats.  They are actually ACHA ELITE not just ACHA.  

While I know those local clubs do not require junior hockey, I talk to a few of the head coaches of those teams fairly regularly and the consensus between them is that the kids who play tier 3 juniors are significantly more prepared. It's nothing to do with the talent and completely based on maturity, responsibility, accountability and the ability to play a more physical game. The ones only play midgets typically take at least a full season to adjust.

I could care less where people decide to play, just passing along what I have been told by a few of the local coaches.

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3 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

While I know those local clubs do not require junior hockey, I talk to a few of the head coaches of those teams fairly regularly and the consensus between them is that the kids who play tier 3 juniors are significantly more prepared. It's nothing to do with the talent and completely based on maturity, responsibility, accountability and the ability to play a more physical game. The ones only play midgets typically take at least a full season to adjust.

I could care less where people decide to play, just passing along what I have been told by a few of the local coaches.

I played!  I know how it works.  I also know several of the local coaches.  Again, if you have the talent to be in the top half of the team it doesn't matter.  I have also played against MANY guys that have played tier 3 juniors over the years and no difference between them and good AA players.  They usually make pretty solid upper c men's league players.  Sure, their crazy parents will try to brag that they played "juniors".  THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD I WOULD TELL SOMEONE TO WASTE THERE MONEY ON TIER 3 JUNIORS SO THEY CAN PLAY ACHA HOCKEY (even ACHA ELITE).  I FORFIET.  THIS IS INSANE!!  If you have money to waste and would enjoy it then fine.  To do it to further your hockey career is insane unless you can't crack tier one or tier two and you would be a top tier 3 play hoping to later crack tier two.  Not to go play ACHA ELITE (Hahahaha)

 

Sorry won't beat this dead horse anymore.  This has been painful.

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36 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

I played!  I know how it works.  I also know several of the local coaches.  Again, if you have the talent to be in the top half of the team it doesn't matter.  I have also played against MANY guys that have played tier 3 juniors over the years and no difference between them and good AA players.  They usually make pretty solid upper c men's league players.  Sure, their crazy parents will try to brag that they played "juniors".  THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD I WOULD TELL SOMEONE TO WASTE THERE MONEY ON TIER 3 JUNIORS SO THEY CAN PLAY ACHA HOCKEY (even ACHA ELITE).  I FORFIET.  THIS IS INSANE!!  If you have money to waste and would enjoy it then fine.  To do it to further your hockey career is insane unless you can't crack tier one or tier two and you would be a top tier 3 play hoping to later crack tier two.  Not to go play ACHA ELITE (Hahahaha)

 

Sorry won't beat this dead horse anymore.  This has been painful.

I may not be as connected. But from what I see...I agree. Players who are in the "top" of their teams. Be it pihl or AAA (regardless of how you idiots define faux or not) can make an ACHA team in college). The ones who don't think they can head to juniors for the extra year in hopes of making that happen. If they want to spend the extra $15k+ to make an acha team. Let them make that decision. To each their own.

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14 hours ago, whatever said:

I posted this today under one of the other comments. This might be a good follow through to your comment. I’m sure I’m missing a few players.   A majority have Pens Elite in common whether it be a stepping stone or a longer stay :

There are quit a few local kids playing Div. 1 and Div. 3 hockey right now.  

NCAA Div. 1

Dalton Hunter – Hornets, Pens Elite, NAHL, USHL,  Mercyhurst

Austen Swankler - Pens Elite, Oakland Junior Grizzlies, USHL, Erie Otters, Bowling Green

Alex Savagno – Pens Elite, USHL, Penn State

Matthew Sutton – Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, USHL, Brown University

Dominic Schimizzi – Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, NAHL, Robert Morris

Christian Gorschak – Esmark, NAHL, Niagara

Brian Kramer – Pens Elite, NAHL, USHL, Robert Morris, AIC

Dustin Geragach –  Esmark, NAHL, Mercyhurst

 

NCAA Div. 3

Jackson Krock – Pens Elite, NCDC, NAHL, Hamilton

Jared Gerger – Predators, OJHL, NAHL, Lake Forest

Tyler Love – Pens Elite, Nahl, Robert Morris, Univ. of Wisconsin-Eau Claire

Dawson Sciarrino - Esmark, Pens Elite, NAHL, Steven's Point

 

Female:

Serena Slursarcyk – Pens Elite, Robert Morris

Kaitlyn Schooley - Pens Elite, Gilmour Academy, Robert Morris

 

Jordan Timmons – Esmark, Pens Elite, USHL, Robert Morris , LIU, Echl

 

Just to add to this list (and I am sure I am missing others from the 00, 01 birth years):

NCAA Div. 1 

Cade Webber - The Rivers School, BCHL, Boston University (drafted Hurricanes) 

Cameron Recchi - Cushing Academy, BCHL, Univ. of St. Thomas 

 

NCAA Div. 3 

Richard Boysen – Skipjacks, NAHL, Trinity College 

Ryan Brown – Predators, NCDC, Hamilton College 

Wyatt George – Predators, OJHL, Babson College 

Sawyer Smith – Shady Side, EHL, Arcadia University 

Tanner Daniels – Pens Elite, NAHL, Hobart College 

Michael Heller – Barons, USPHL Premier, New England College 

Branwen Pollett – Predators, NA3HL, Nichols College 

Jordan Rosenbaum – Pens Elite, USPHL Premier, SUNY-Brockport 

Christian Colantonio - Trinity-Pawling School, EHL, Hamilton College

 

(FYI 01 Players from Pittsburgh area that used to play PAHL – 1 NHL draft, 5 D1, 6 D3) 

 

I agree almost all of these kids played PPE at some point. However, many also played your "faux" AAA and even played Tier 3 Jr's. Regardless what the people on here keep stating it is not about ego (or the parents ego), it is about the kids and their desire to play the game and take it as far as they can. If you want real info on Jr's do not listen to the trolls on here, but go to the leagues websites, follow players and see their progression, or even talk to the kids themselves about their journey.

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10 minutes ago, DieHardLeafs said:

Just to add to this list (and I am sure I am missing others from the 00, 01 birth years):

NCAA Div. 1 

Cade Webber - The Rivers School, BCHL, Boston University (drafted Hurricanes) 

Cameron Recchi - Cushing Academy, BCHL, Univ. of St. Thomas 

 

NCAA Div. 3 

Richard Boysen – Skipjacks, NAHL, Trinity College 

Ryan Brown – Predators, NCDC, Hamilton College 

Wyatt George – Predators, OJHL, Babson College 

Sawyer Smith – Shady Side, EHL, Arcadia University 

Tanner Daniels – Pens Elite, NAHL, Hobart College 

Michael Heller – Barons, USPHL Premier, New England College 

Branwen Pollett – Predators, NA3HL, Nichols College 

Jordan Rosenbaum – Pens Elite, USPHL Premier, SUNY-Brockport 

Christian Colantonio - Trinity-Pawling School, EHL, Hamilton College

 

(FYI 01 Players from Pittsburgh area that used to play PAHL – 1 NHL draft, 5 D1, 6 D3) 

 

I agree almost all of these kids played PPE at some point. However, many also played your "faux" AAA and even played Tier 3 Jr's. Regardless what the people on here keep stating it is not about ego (or the parents ego), it is about the kids and their desire to play the game and take it as far as they can. If you want real info on Jr's do not listen to the trolls on here, but go to the leagues websites, follow players and see their progression, or even talk to the kids themselves about their journey.

Thanks for reminding me of these others.   What a great ‘01 representation from the area.  

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9 hours ago, Icebucket said:

While I know those local clubs do not require junior hockey, I talk to a few of the head coaches of those teams fairly regularly and the consensus between them is that the kids who play tier 3 juniors are significantly more prepared. It's nothing to do with the talent and completely based on maturity, responsibility, accountability and the ability to play a more physical game. The ones only play midgets typically take at least a full season to adjust.

I could care less where people decide to play, just passing along what I have been told by a few of the local coaches.

Look at iup‘s team one this year, 6 or so freshman right out of HS made the team. 2 esmark, a few faux aaa programs along with Pahl aa. 
 

Unless your kid is trying to make team 1 at schools like Adrian, unlv, Arizona, Ohio, liberty etc - it doesn’t matter much. 

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30 minutes ago, DieHardLeafs said:

Just to add to this list (and I am sure I am missing others from the 00, 01 birth years):

NCAA Div. 1 

Cade Webber - The Rivers School, BCHL, Boston University (drafted Hurricanes) 

Cameron Recchi - Cushing Academy, BCHL, Univ. of St. Thomas 

 

NCAA Div. 3 

Richard Boysen – Skipjacks, NAHL, Trinity College 

Ryan Brown – Predators, NCDC, Hamilton College 

Wyatt George – Predators, OJHL, Babson College 

Sawyer Smith – Shady Side, EHL, Arcadia University 

Tanner Daniels – Pens Elite, NAHL, Hobart College 

Michael Heller – Barons, USPHL Premier, New England College 

Branwen Pollett – Predators, NA3HL, Nichols College 

Jordan Rosenbaum – Pens Elite, USPHL Premier, SUNY-Brockport 

Christian Colantonio - Trinity-Pawling School, EHL, Hamilton College

 

(FYI 01 Players from Pittsburgh area that used to play PAHL – 1 NHL draft, 5 D1, 6 D3) 

 

I agree almost all of these kids played PPE at some point. However, many also played your "faux" AAA and even played Tier 3 Jr's. Regardless what the people on here keep stating it is not about ego (or the parents ego), it is about the kids and their desire to play the game and take it as far as they can. If you want real info on Jr's do not listen to the trolls on here, but go to the leagues websites, follow players and see their progression, or even talk to the kids themselves about their journey.

Remove ncca d3 and the numbers change dramatically. If you have the money it’s not hard to make ncaa d3. The “elite” acha teams would pound on those ncaa d3 teams. Iup club almost beat Chattam ncaa d3 last year.  I’ll add most of the ncaa d3 schools are stupid expensive, sports are bait to lure families to pay. 

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I should add - don’t let your kid pick a college based on the hockey program. College should be picked based on the fit for the kid, acedmics,  cost for your family etc. 

acha 1,2 & 3 are not all that much different once you get passed the top acha programs - none reside in western pa. There are good and bad teams in all the classes. 

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41 minutes ago, whatever said:

Thanks for reminding me of these others.   What a great ‘01 representation from the area.  

Thinking back on these '01 players.  It is interesting to look at their paths. The d1 committed kids - 1 was cut his 16 u year and a year and half later was on the NHL watch list.  Another got barely any game time his 16 U year. 2 of them were very very small until maybe 18 or even juniors.  I believe each on of them had a stepping stone between Pens Elite and Juniors/D1.   Almost every one had some type of adversity.

The same goes for the D3 kids - some were cut from their AAA and needed to move to other programs.  

Yet, here we are - they are the ones going NCAA D1and D3

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27 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Remove ncca d3 and the numbers change dramatically. If you have the money it’s not hard to make ncaa d3. The “elite” acha teams would pound on those ncaa d3 teams. Iup club almost beat Chattam ncaa d3 last year.  I’ll add most of the ncaa d3 schools are stupid expensive, sports are bait to lure families to pay. 

As making a D3 roster is HARD, unless as you say (though you never offer or show any proof) you are independently wealthy enough to pay for a spot. Ask any kid who does it, it is not easy (but apparently Danner knows all). The coaches are usually highly selective, most D3 rosters are ex Tier 1 and 2 players with the top of Tier 3 to round out the teams.

Yes you are correct the top ACHA teams usually are better, but if you actually knew hockey you would also point out the usual process of going D1 comes from ACHA, look at ASU and the current teams going through the process. Hence THOSE ACHA teams are even more selective to get into. Furthermore, up until I believe two years ago some ACHA teams even gave out sports scholarships to further entice kids to play for them.

Lastly, though many people talk about the costs. If a D3 team wants you, you almost always get merit scholarships so you get to go to a small private college for about 5K a year.

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