What will happen to the good 2009 AA PAHL teams?

[Happy Hockey Fan]

24 minutes ago, Corsi said:

The problem with that is the level of play on travel hockey teams is higher than local HS, especially when you move away from the higher PIHL divisions.  Also, if the player has any kind of goal of playing at a higher level, junior and college coaches are not sending their people to watch a PIHL game on a Thursday night, but will have people in Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh for a weekend to watch "AAA" tournament games.  I understand the desire to play with and in front of your friends from school, but the decision should be based on what an individual player's future goals are.

I know two kids that played both amateur and high school, didn’t stop them from going D1. Only missed one or two high school games because of amateur travel. For a coach to deny a kid an opportunity to play a game they love with friends is absolutely atrocious. Deal with any conflicts as they come up and playing for both teams is not an issue. The EGO of these coaches that say you can’t play both is the problem. A high school coach suggesting a kid not play for that kind of coach is not a problem. Missing an amateur practice occasionally for a high school game should not be a problem. The kids are on the ice. They are not going to a movie. The coaches that think missing a couple practices for other ice time need to move on to another career. Go coach adults, kids are kids and should be treated as such. Because no matter how good of a coach you are, a couple missed practices are NOT going to change the trajectory of a player or hurt their amateur team. 

[RJUSHL]

On 3/20/2024 at 11:34 AM, hockey07 said:

Any truth to preds u15 2009 not allowing kids to play PIHL hockey?

As has been the case in the past, they're not permitted to miss practice for JV games or practices. They can miss practice for a Varsity game unless it happens to be a practice that has been made mandatory leading up to a tournament or a big game for instance.  I wouldn't say it's PIHL unfriendly, but it's certainly not the most friendly.

[Corsi]

4 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

As has been the case in the past, they're not permitted to miss practice for JV games or practices. They can miss practice for a Varsity game unless it happens to be a practice that has been made mandatory leading up to a tournament or a big game for instance.  I wouldn't say it's PIHL unfriendly, but it's certainly not the most friendly.

Thank you, that is similar to what I heard about both Preds and SHAHA.  Not sure about SHAHA's policy with JV, but that seems correct as far as varsity goes.

[RJUSHL]

3 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

The Preds AAA level teams are a joke anyhow - did any of them make MidAms?

09s made MidAms. They beat Blue Jackets and Vengeance, lost to Pens. 

[Corsi]

33 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

I know two kids that played both amateur and high school, didn’t stop them from going D1. Only missed one or two high school games because of amateur travel. For a coach to deny a kid an opportunity to play a game they love with friends is absolutely atrocious. Deal with any conflicts as they come up and playing for both teams is not an issue. The EGO of these coaches that say you can’t play both is the problem. A high school coach suggesting a kid not play for that kind of coach is not a problem. Missing an amateur practice occasionally for a high school game should not be a problem. The kids are on the ice. They are not going to a movie. The coaches that think missing a couple practices for other ice time need to move on to another career. Go coach adults, kids are kids and should be treated as such. Because no matter how good of a coach you are, a couple missed practices are NOT going to change the trajectory of a player or hurt their amateur team. 

My response was to this "I feel like it should be the other way around. Any responsible HS coach should advise his players to avoid that train wreck A chase."

The "I feel like it should be the other way around." is what my post was trying to point out.  Players and families, for the most part put their priority on the travel/amateur team over their PIHL team, because of the difference in level of play.  I agree with you that there is value in having players participate in both.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

3 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

The Preds AAA level teams are a joke anyhow - did any of them make MidAms?

The U18 and U-16 are definitely struggling. The U14 and U13 teams were decent teams. I agree the Preds program hasn’t been the best, but those 2 teams proved to be competitive this year.

[aaaahockey]

2 hours ago, Corsi said:

The problem with that is the level of play on travel hockey teams is higher than local HS, especially when you move away from the higher PIHL divisions.  Also, if the player has any kind of goal of playing at a higher level, junior and college coaches are not sending their people to watch a PIHL game on a Thursday night, but will have people in Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh for a weekend to watch "AAA" tournament games.  I understand the desire to play with and in front of your friends from school, but the decision should be based on what an individual player's future goals are.

The few kids who are that good will be found one way or another. And they aren't playing on the low level AAA teams around here with very few exceptions.  

[e72923]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:43 PM, Icebucket said:

Maybe I just don't buy the "all the best tier 2 first year midgets play 15U". Even just using this year as an example, Armstrong and NP had about 15 08s on their 16AA teams. You think those players weren't capable of making a tier 2 15U team?

North Pitt had 5 total including 2 goalies and as for Armstrong they had about 6 I believe

[RJUSHL]

21 minutes ago, e72923 said:

North Pitt had 5 total including 2 goalies and as for Armstrong they had about 6 I believe

Yep. Mixed teams will have 70%-80% of the older birth year.

I get the arguments for AA mixed teams. Some are valid. Organizations can stay "principled" all they want but those organizations will lose players to other organizations that offer BY AA teams. It's just the way it is. 

[e72923]

On 3/16/2024 at 9:07 AM, aaaahockey said:

Hard question because it also depends on if any other 08s show up that would knock them out of spots. Maybe this is where the Esmark team gets their 09s

very rare that any new 08s show up at badgers they're the same team they've been (other than few they've lost) since squirt pretty much

[HockeyFan6687]

Well if new kids don’t get a fair shake and they keep hanging on to kids from squirt until now then why would most even consider going there?  You’re either there to place kids appropriately or run a good ole boys club.  Can’t do both.  It seems the latter will take priority in some places. 

[e72923]

1 minute ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

Well if new kids don’t get a fair shake and they keep hanging on to kids from squirt until now then why would most even consider going there?  You’re either there to place kids appropriately or run a good ole boys club.  Can’t do both.  It seems the latter will take priority in some places. 

one of the big problems right now with aa teams is that they don't seem to be very open to changing there teams even for better players. this is probably what leads to so many of the aaa teams around here honestly 

[Corsi]

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

The few kids who are that good will be found one way or another. And they aren't playing on the low level AAA teams around here with very few exceptions.  

I agree with the premise that good players are found one way or another, but I would argue that each of the "low level AAA teams" you are referencing have a few players (2-4) that could play for a 30 "AAA" team and contribute (not sure where your cut off is for "low level").  Those kids that are playing at the "AAA" level have a better chance of "being found" than players at "AA" simply because the events they attend are usually attended by other "AAA" programs which lend themselves to being watched by more eyes than a "AA" or "A" event.  

[aaaahockey]

52 minutes ago, Corsi said:

I agree with the premise that good players are found one way or another, but I would argue that each of the "low level AAA teams" you are referencing have a few players (2-4) that could play for a 30 "AAA" team and contribute (not sure where your cut off is for "low level").  Those kids that are playing at the "AAA" level have a better chance of "being found" than players at "AA" simply because the events they attend are usually attended by other "AAA" programs which lend themselves to being watched by more eyes than a "AA" or "A" event.  

If 2-4 players from every aaa team in pittsburgh except Pens elite (any birthyear) play free to play juniors or division 3 or 1 hockey I will salt my hat and eat it.  Doesn't happen these days.  If we are talking pay to play juniors whatever.  I'd be absolutely shocked if it wasn't a couple pens elite, maybe 1-2 Esmark and 1-2 other kids across all the other programs. 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

19 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

If 2-4 players from every aaa team in pittsburgh except Pens elite (any birthyear) play free to play juniors or division 3 or 1 hockey I will salt my hat and eat it.  Doesn't happen these days.  If we are talking pay to play juniors whatever.  I'd be absolutely shocked if it wasn't a couple pens elite, maybe 1-2 Esmark and 1-2 other kids across all the other programs. 

There is more than one path to tier 2 juniors and D1. I have seen it. One of the kids I know didn’t even play AAA until 18U. And he didn’t play for the Pens. He is D1. Another kid played for Preds AAA until U18 then went to Esmark. Also going D1. Not everybody wants or can afford to spend 400,000 over 4 years of High school. The good ones find a way without the Pens. 

[aaaahockey]

13 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

There is more than one path to tier 2 juniors and D1. I have seen it. One of the kids I know didn’t even play AAA until 18U. And he didn’t play for the Pens. He is D1. Another kid played for Preds AAA until U18 then went to Esmark. Also going D1. Not everybody wants or can afford to spend 400,000 over 4 years of High school. The good ones find a way without the Pens. 

I don't disagree with you that's why I said the best kids will rise to the top.  My point was more about the few number of players from our region who make it.   And even many of the pens who do were brought in for u16.  

[CranjisMcBasketball]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:14 AM, Corsi said:

The problem with that is the level of play on travel hockey teams is higher than local HS, especially when you move away from the higher PIHL divisions.  Also, if the player has any kind of goal of playing at a higher level, junior and college coaches are not sending their people to watch a PIHL game on a Thursday night, but will have people in Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh for a weekend to watch "AAA" tournament games.  I understand the desire to play with and in front of your friends from school, but the decision should be based on what an individual player's future goals are.

The amount of people moving on are maybe 1 percent. 

[aaaahockey]

2 hours ago, CranjisMcBasketball said:

The amount of people moving on are maybe 1 percent. 

0.01% maybe. 

[nemesis8679]

3 hours ago, CranjisMcBasketball said:

The amount of people moving on are maybe 1 percent. 

Not even close.

[hockeydadx3]

On 3/21/2024 at 3:08 PM, Corsi said:

I agree with the premise that good players are found one way or another, but I would argue that each of the "low level AAA teams" you are referencing have a few players (2-4) that could play for a 30 "AAA" team and contribute (not sure where your cut off is for "low level").  Those kids that are playing at the "AAA" level have a better chance of "being found" than players at "AA" simply because the events they attend are usually attended by other "AAA" programs which lend themselves to being watched by more eyes than a "AA" or "A" event.  

Be careful stating such a thing on this forum. Unless you have your kid play AA hockey within 15 minutes from your home until they head to college you are an irresponsible parent. 

[Corsi]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:46 PM, hockeydadx3 said:

Be careful stating such a thing on this forum. Unless you have your kid play AA hockey within 15 minutes from your home until they head to college you are an irresponsible parent. 

You forgot wasting your money and "drinking the Kool-Aid"!

[Rewster]

This whole thread seems like it abruptly turned into Western Pennsylvania Youth Hockey’s version of “Grumpy old Men.”

Frankly, it reminds me of a multi-generational commiseration of the “back-in-my-day” old farts sipping coffee and telling stories about how they should have listened to their mom & dad and played baseball (or football); instead wasting their childhood years and dreams by playing hockey in Pittsburgh…since, ya know…’nobody from Pittsburgh ever gets noticed, scouted, or goes anywhere.’
 

I can still picture so many people saying, “Sorry kid, you should have been born further north if you wanna play hockey…yeah, you gotta be from Canada, New England, Michigan, or Minnesota if you want to ever go anywhere in this sport.”

It’s weird how there’s never any mention about how quickly this region has progressed from next to nothing as a legitimate hockey region—when discussed by all of the blue-blood and traditional North American hockey markets (i.e. Boston/New England, Buffalo/Western NY, Detroit/Michigan, Minnesota, Toronto/Ontario, Montreal/Quebec, even Western Canada). It’s truly included in those circles now and accepted as such when considering the talent pool of hockey players that come out of Pittsburgh…only not on par with their overall numbers, of course.

Put it another way, it appears that Pittsburgh is way past the emerging hockey market problems. You don’t ever hear stories about people complaining about 5:00 AM available ice slots; only having 3-4 ice rinks available within an hour drive; or having generations of parents that never skated or played hockey and having to resort to being self-taught… or receive marginal hockey knowledge and coaching from guys that were only qualified because they were born in Canada or Maine.

[aaaahockey]

1 hour ago, Rewster said:

This whole thread seems like it abruptly turned into Western Pennsylvania Youth Hockey’s version of “Grumpy old Men.”

Frankly, it reminds me of a multi-generational commiseration of the “back-in-my-day” old farts sipping coffee and telling stories about how they should have listened to their mom & dad and played baseball (or football); instead wasting their childhood years and dreams by playing hockey in Pittsburgh…since, ya know…’nobody from Pittsburgh ever gets noticed, scouted, or goes anywhere.’
 

I can still picture so many people saying, “Sorry kid, you should have been born further north if you wanna play hockey…yeah, you gotta be from Canada, New England, Michigan, or Minnesota if you want to ever go anywhere in this sport.”

It’s weird how there’s never any mention about how quickly this region has progressed from next to nothing as a legitimate hockey region—when discussed by all of the blue-blood and traditional North American hockey markets (i.e. Boston/New England, Buffalo/Western NY, Detroit/Michigan, Minnesota, Toronto/Ontario, Montreal/Quebec, even Western Canada). It’s truly included in those circles now and accepted as such when considering the talent pool of hockey players that come out of Pittsburgh…only not on par with their overall numbers, of course.

Put it another way, it appears that Pittsburgh is way past the emerging hockey market problems. You don’t ever hear stories about people complaining about 5:00 AM available ice slots; only having 3-4 ice rinks available within an hour drive; or having generations of parents that never skated or played hockey and having to resort to being self-taught… or receive marginal hockey knowledge and coaching from guys that were only qualified because they were born in Canada or Maine.

You make a lot of really good points.  I also think Pittsburgh is a great place to live for hockey (youth and professional).  My issues are with the sport as a whole.  There aren't enough NCAA hockey teams.  Compare it to almost any other sport as mainstream as hockey.  Spots are very very limited.  That creates this terrible system where kids move away to pay to play juniors at 15-16 years old and don't start college til 22 or 23.  The whole thing is broken and a$$-backwards.  The amount of money, time and commitment are insane.  I also understand other sports are getting there as well.  It's still not the same though.  Jimmy from South Park playing football for his varsity team can still get recruited to play NCAA football way easier than little johnny and his aaa hockey team.  The whole thing has become a money making racket and a game where you are really just funding people above you in the food chain.  My remaining boy has no shot at all at an NCAA scholarship for hockey.  I'm guessing he will end up playing club hockey at a high level.  He is half the baseball player he is a hockey  player and based on recruiting to date will probably at least play division III baseball.  I find that insane. 

Edited March 26 by aaaahockey
Grammar

[Rewster]

26 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

You make a lot of really good points.  I also think Pittsburgh is a great place to live for hockey (youth and professional).  My issues are with the sport as a whole.  There aren't enough NCAA hockey teams.  Compare it to almost any other sport as mainstream as hockey.  Spots are very very limited.  That creates this terrible system where kids move away to pay to play juniors at 15-16 years old and don't start college til 22 or 23.  The whole thing is broken and a$$-backwards.  The amount of money, time and commitment are insane.  I also understand other sports are getting there as well.  It's still not the same though.  Jimmy from South Park playing football for his varsity team can still get recruited to play NCAA football way easier than little johnny and his aaa hockey team.  The whole thing has become a money making racket and a game where you are really just funding people above you in the food chain.  My remaining boy has no shot at all at an NCAA scholarship for hockey.  I'm guessing he will end up playing club hockey at a high level.  He is half the baseball player he is a hockey  player and based on recruiting to date will probably at least play division III baseball.  I find that insane. 

Yes, you’re exactly right…hockey is an entirely different animal. And it has only snowballed into this gigantic enigma that has (I’m guessing) mirrored Canadian U-Sports in terms of taking seasoned 20- year old Junior A players; instead of immediately recruiting 18-year old high school players.
 

Even in this area, a lot the current ACHA schools have evolved from an “idea” of starting a program, to assembling a coaching staff and players in terms of without any recruiting or prior student athlete player knowledge. They would simply form a club team. Then roll the dice on finding already enrolled students that could pose as functional players that can skate and shoot. I remember when Pitt, and even Liberty University basically launched their programs from the ground up. 

Now, in order to seriously be considered as a player on a top 25 program, you have to pretty much play Junior A; or at least AAA and sit out a year or so.

I was talking to an ACHA coach that was at the Pennsylvania Cup trilogy of games 2 years ago in Philadelphia. I remember asking him if he was scouting or actively talking to any players in the games. Surprisingly to me, he said no. He was there as a fan and to support a relative that was playing. He said that very same thing about only scouting Jr A players anymore. I didn’t realize how fast the competition and arms race that this sport has morphed into. 
It’s crazy to me.

[aaaahockey]

It's absolutely crazy.   And I'm going to speak my own opinion here but it hurts the sport from top to bottom.  Ever wonder why after pick 5 or so of the NHL draft it's a total crapshoot?