AAA Teams

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

17 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

That's interesting. I'm curious about something, though. At 16u in Michigan, no teams are labeled AA- only A or AAA. And there's less than half the amount of total teams than there are in PA. I never paid attention before, but just seems odd. 

We're not that far from having only A or AAA here too. Back in the 90s, when they started using the AA designation, there were a lot more AA teams. Now there are 6-8 different designations within A, some of which would have been AA back in the 90s. I have friends in Columbus who say the same thing, that there is almost no one in AA there anymore either.

Might end up being a bit of a re-categorization like Junior hockey. In the early 2000s/late 90s, there were Jr A, Jr B, and Jr C designations, and it was all over the place. I think (and I could be wrong) that only the USHL and NAHL called themselves Jr A. Most of the Jr teams were Jr B. Jr C was mostly younger kids. At the same time, there was a push in the rust belt and mid west to have "split season" midget hockey, and the response was to have more Jr teams, who were not bound by the split season agreement. Anyhow, the point of the rambling is that I would not be surprised if USA Hockey says there is only "tier 1" and "tier 2" and renders the AAA/AA/A labels meaningless, like it did with Jr A/B/C.

Edited March 28 by Spear and Magic Helmet
typo

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

USA Hockey says there is only "tier 1" and "tier 2" and renders the AAA/AA/A labels meaningless, like it did with Jr A/B/C.

I thought that was already the case? All the As, divisions, etc are what the local areas do to help organize competitive divisions.

[McCartyMonster]

22 hours ago, Hockey247 said:

I’m new to this forum, but I’m hoping to get some information.  Although I know not everyone is in favor of the AAA teams, I am looking to get some sort of comparison between the teams.  There seems to be more discussions that include Esmark, but I haven’t seen too much said about Vengeance.  Can anyone throw out some pros/cons?  Thoughts or knowledge about the new Aviators AAA?

 

Since many have chosen to look down on the Aviators, I figured I would post a little upside (truth) for you about the Aviators.  Full disclosure, I'm a parent.   Yes, a few years ago they were down to only a small handful of teams.  Two, maybe three teams left including their 19u ladies team.  They secured a home at Alpha and since then have grown to 8 teams, with 4 this past season competing in PAHL AA division.  Two of those teams competed in the PAHL 14u AA minor(2010) division and both were playoff teams.  A bounce either way could have had both teams playing for the championship.   One of those teams won the regular season and playoff championship.  It was actually their second consecutive championship in that division.  In fact, over the past 2 seasons that team has compiled a record of 86-15-4 with a goal differential of 518-201.   They played everyone who would play them.  The record alone should show they need to be playing higher level competition. 

The problem is, without the 3rd "A", they can't get those games.  The only local AAA organization that would agree to play them was Vengeance.  Yes, the Vengeance won the game 5-1 (for those who wish to find out what the final was) however, it was a tight game (2-1) through two periods.  The Aviators wore down, plain and simple.  It was their second game of the day vs. the Vengeance only game of the day.  So for those to say can't even field a decent AA team, or it’s one “Dad Coach” who is recruiting, well those are just ignorant statements.  They had 4 this past season with 2 fantastic teams in the 2010 group alone. 

 Next, to say it's a money grab, again that's simply just ignorant. The kids earned their rights to play higher competition and as I stated before, they can't get those games without the 3rd "A".   I was happy to see someone explain Tier 1 for those unaware, and I just learned the true difference this year.  No, you can't simply declare Tier 1 AAA.  Doesn't work that way, and as far as Tier 1 or Tier 2 goes, there are tons of 2010 Tier 1 AAA teams out there ranked well below the lowly 2010AA 14U 1 Aviators.  Many teams ranked above them are there simply because of strength of schedule.  Because they are "AAA", they can get those games and benefit greatly from it when it comes to MHR, which drives everything in youth hockey. 

Not gonna argue what “true AAA” is and what is not.  Is PPE the top team? Yep. Quite honestly it doesn’t matter. It’s nothing more than a snap-shot in time.  Where they are today.  None of the A’s indicative of their collective hockey futures or futures in general.  There are kids playing at that “top level” today who may trade it all in next year and play something else, or simply never develop beyond where they are today and there are “A” kids today who may develop into a highly recruited kid in 4 years.  None of us know what will happen.

As I disclosed earlier, I am an Aviator parent, and proud to be one.  We drive an extremely long distance, not to “chase a third A” but to be with an organization that we are happy with. A place we have fun. A place where our kid is happy and healthy.  The organization is an extended family for us.  We have relationships with families from just about every team in the organization.  It’s those types of things that attract people to the organization, which is why it has grown so much in the past 3 years.  At the end of the day, we as parents make huge commitments and sacrifices for our kids, shouldn’t it be fun for all of us?  So I would say, don’t bash an organization you really don’t know anything about, or at least preface your statements with, “I really don’t know anything about the Aviators today, but……”.   This is really a great organization to be part of.  Great kids, great families, great coaches.   Let’s Fly Boys!!!

[Happy Hockey Fan]

38 minutes ago, McCartyMonster said:

No, you can't simply declare Tier 1 AAA.

You can definitely just declare that you are “AAA”.  Not sure about the tier 1 designation. But any team can claim to be AAA. And the Aviators have a long history of doing just that. I know. I have been part of the Aviators organization in the past and they have had a number of teams declare AAA. And it was always a reach and the teams struggled dearly. Somehow one of those teams got a game with Pens Elite, got blown out and it was ugly. 
 

I am not saying your new AAA team will be as bad. I hope that they are competitive. I saw the AA teams play last year and they were good. Not sure if they have enough kids that are AAA fast. But they were good. Good luck with your season, I hope they are competitive and I look forward to seeing them play. 

[McCartyMonster]

54 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

You can definitely just declare that you are “AAA”.  Not sure about the tier 1 designation. But any team can claim to be AAA. And the Aviators have a long history of doing just that. I know. I have been part of the Aviators organization in the past and they have had a number of teams declare AAA. And it was always a reach and the teams struggled dearly. Somehow one of those teams got a game with Pens Elite, got blown out and it was ugly. 
 

I am not saying your new AAA team will be as bad. I hope that they are competitive. I saw the AA teams play last year and they were good. Not sure if they have enough kids that are AAA fast. But they were good. Good luck with your season, I hope they are competitive and I look forward to seeing them play. 

Certainly you can declare AAA anytime you want.  Hell, you can declare AAAA for that matter(jokingly), but you cannot declare Tier 1.  Bunch of hoops and requirements in order to do so.  As I mentioned, the Aviators of old had dwindled down to only 3 teams when they lost their home.  That's been a while now.   A lot of great people put their hearts into rebuilding this organization and are continuing to work to build it even bigger.  I appreciate your well wishes toward our future, I am excited too.  They can certainly compete right now, but you are correct, speed is king.  The fortunate and unfortunate side of tryouts will ensure an increase in speed.  These boys/girls will do great moving forward.  All of the teams will do nothing more but continue to get better and better.  Again, I appreciate the well wishes.  

[nemesis8679]

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Edited March 28 by nemesis8679
To edit

[hockeyisgreat]

Some good discussions going on here.  Glad to see we have some new folks to add their perspective to this site.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 hour ago, McCartyMonster said:

As I mentioned, the Aviators of old had dwindled down to only 3 teams when they lost their home.

If you are referring to the Airport, there were more than 3 teams when they closed down. And they could have had more if the owners weren’t  such idiots. 

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

9 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

If you are referring to the Airport, there were more than 3 teams when they closed down. And they could have had more if the owners weren’t  such idiots. 

Agreed. They even had some AAA teams in the early 2000s. I believe George Ferguson coached one of them. The owner might be out of jail now, but he's probably not going back into the rink business.

[McCartyMonster]

17 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

If you are referring to the Airport, there were more than 3 teams when they closed down. And they could have had more if the owners weren’t  such idiots. 

Semantics at this point.  I'm referring to the point they signed a new contract with Alpha around 2020ish.  I should have said "After" vs. "When".  Regardless, I'm referring to the point in time we were fortunate to be asked to come aboard. 

[Rewster]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:11 PM, pickle said:

 Would these Tier I teams been better served playing Tier II and competing for the National Championship?  What about getting to play local high school as well?

Another factor everyone brings up is that it is about getting to and advancing to higher levels, particularly junior teams and college teams.  A lot of the problem comes down to, and has already been addressed on this board, is that Tier II just doesn't get same level of recognition regardless of team strength, individual skill, etc.

There are several great points that you made. Inevitably, everyone’s pursuit of playing at the highest level, with/against the best competition, and in the highest profile league possible (or school) gradually comes into focus. These are the same internal struggles that players, families, parents have to come to terms with at some point.
I remember hearing Chuck Noll’s saying (with regards to athletic careers): “Maybe it’s now time to get on with you life’s work.”  Meaning, competitive athletics is such a short period of time in one’s life. For better or worse, either try to get as much of it as you can, or cut it off when it’s apparent that you’re the at the best as you’ll ever get.

[CranjisMcBasketball]

I’m sure this will be an unpopular opinion but there is too much travel hockey. All these organizations with 4 to 15283847372 sub A major teams would be better suited along with their families having a robust house program and only having 3-4 traveling teams per age group max.  
 

[James Gatz]

4 minutes ago, CranjisMcBasketball said:

I’m sure this will be an unpopular opinion but there is too much travel hockey. All these organizations with 4 to 15283847372 sub A major teams would be better suited along with their families having a robust house program and only having 3-4 traveling teams per age group max.  
 

I am having a hard time thinking of any organization around here with more than 3-4 travel teams per age group. The deepest programs can, and should, field multiple 10U teams. The numbers thin as in the upper age groups through attrition.  
 

very few programs are big enough to have a robust house program. I don’t see that many problems with local travel.  The trend towards AHF/non-local travel at the youngest age groups is worth discussing, but even those organizations doing this have no more than one team per birth year. 

[Carl Racki]

22 hours ago, CranjisMcBasketball said:

I’m sure this will be an unpopular opinion but there is too much travel hockey. All these organizations with 4 to 15283847372 sub A major teams would be better suited along with their families having a robust house program and only having 3-4 traveling teams per age group max.  
 

I think the lower level travel teams are great as long as the play PAHL and only do 2-3 tournaments that are 2-5 hours max away.  Then maybe one to two local tournaments.  The kids really enjoy doing those trips and it is great bonding for the players and families.  No reason to take that experience away from the kids.  It's not like they are charging $7000 plus team fees and selling a bs product like some other programs.  As long as people truly know what they are getting and enjoy it I think it is great.  It is when orgs. try to make people believe it is a "PATH" to the NHL or D1 college yet they send very few players to play tier one or tier two juniors, (I don't count tier 3 pay to play as there are over 100 teams and literally anyone can play) that is a far bigger problem.  I think players of the lower level travel teams all just enjoy playing the game.  I don't think anyone is telling them it is a path to anywhere and do all these extras/spend more money.  They just enjoy the game and the families they play with.  I think that is great.

[Corsi]

43 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

I think the lower level travel teams are great as long as the play PAHL and only do 2-3 tournaments that are 2-5 hours max away.  Then maybe one to two local tournaments.  The kids really enjoy doing those trips and it is great bonding for the players and families.  No reason to take that experience away from the kids.  It's not like they are charging $7000 plus team fees and selling a bs product like some other programs.  As long as people truly know what they are getting and enjoy it I think it is great.  It is when orgs. try to make people believe it is a "PATH" to the NHL or D1 college yet they send very few players to play tier one or tier two juniors, (I don't count tier 3 pay to play as there are over 100 teams and literally anyone can play) that is a far bigger problem.  I think players of the lower level travel teams all just enjoy playing the game.  I don't think anyone is telling them it is a path to anywhere and do all these extras/spend more money.  They just enjoy the game and the families they play with.  I think that is great.

The key, is having a parent/player education program in place when players are just beginning to enter into playing hockey.  In my opinion, there is no harm in sharing with parents at the 8U and 10U levels information about what the hockey "path" is and what the odds are of their player reaching Junior, D1, etc.  It is the organizations and coaches that do not do this that are doing a disservice to people.  For better or worse, hockey is not structured like baseball, football, or basketball which are what most parents think of when it comes to youth sports.  

As far as the "too much travel hockey", there is no choice, but to travel.  There are not rinks in every neighborhood like baseball fields or basketball courts.  Hockey has always required more travel than "traditional" sports because of a smaller population and the scarcity of facilities.  I would think if this was a different region of the country or Canada there would be more options to "stay local", that being said I feel like the issue isn't the travel, but the shear number of games some teams play.  Some travel teams are playing 50-60 games and then the same players are also playing 20 PIHL games, so these are 14-19 year old's playing somewhere in the ballpark of 70-80 games and that does not include 2/3 practices per week for each team. 

[CranjisMcBasketball]

On 3/27/2024 at 3:34 PM, hockeydadx3 said:

Looks like parents in Detroit are burning their money as well. Glad @fafafohi and the crew have it figured out or what would we all do??

It goes to show it’s not an isolated occurrence. 

[hockeydadx3]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:08 PM, CranjisMcBasketball said:

It goes to show it’s not an isolated occurrence. 

CranjisMcBasketball, I agree 100%. The challenge is it seems this board completely agrees that Pens does things unfairly and it’s a waste of money and all the other AAA organizations in the region are fake AAA teams full of parents in search of an additional A.  What is one to do?? Play basketball? It seems like the only option left. 

[Carl Racki]

47 minutes ago, hockeydadx3 said:

 

CranjisMcBasketball, I agree 100%. The challenge is it seems this board completely agrees that Pens does things unfairly and it’s a waste of money and all the other AAA organizations in the region are fake AAA teams full of parents in search of an additional A.  What is one to do?? Play basketball? It seems like the only option left. 

I disagree, play pickle ball 

[hockeydadx3]

3 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

I disagree, play pickle ball 

Oh wow. Didn’t think about that. aaaahockey, is that the best option for these kids!?!

[hockey55]

Did pens have any shake ups on their teams that will affect the other aaa teams gaining people?

[No Politics]

On 3/28/2024 at 11:53 AM, McCartyMonster said:

So I would say, don’t bash an organization you really don’t know anything about

I can appreciate what you are saying MCM.  However, when did your player start at the Aviators?  

Would you say that it is unfair to tell someone who left the Aviators organization that they don't know anything about the Aviators because they weren't there this past season?

I know numerous families who were at the Aviators -- from all locations -- and left.  And I know why.  Some had legitimate reasons, and some didn't.

The 2010 teams are rocking.  There is no doubt about that.  But just a couple years ago the Aviators had their 16U team implode and go 0-20 on the season.  If I recall correctly only two of those 16U 2007s returned, and ALL the 2008s from the 14U team left.  And just this year I had a parent from the 14U A Major Black team tell me they were angry because that team was sold as a AA Major team.

None of that sounds like happiness to me.

I know some of the folks heading up the Aviators now, and I know they are good people.  I sincerely hope that even better days are ahead.  I'm also happy that your player and your family are happy there.  What is better than that, right?  I would just caution that if you feel you can praise the organization -- or ANY organization -- because of your positive experiences, then you need to respect the fact that some people have the right to "look down" on an organization because of their own, personal negative experiences.

[hockeydadx3]

8 hours ago, hockey55 said:

Did pens have any shake ups on their teams that will affect the other aaa teams gaining people?

Sounds like you know something hockey55. Share. 

[YardSale]

1 minute ago, hockeydadx3 said:

Sounds like you know something hockey55. Share. 

I think he is asking in the context of the low numbers at other tryouts.  Are there Pens cuts coming to the rescue?

[zam]

35 minutes ago, YardSale said:

I think he is asking in the context of the low numbers at other tryouts.  Are there Pens cuts coming to the rescue?

Other than the birthyear when the Pens drop the black team and only field one team, is there ever a large enough cut of players to "Come to the rescue??" At least historically maybe 2 or 3 players get cut from a team, they either go to prep school, Barons, or Esmark. Has that changed?

[hockeydadx3]

36 minutes ago, zam said:

Other than the birthyear when the Pens drop the black team and only field one team, is there ever a large enough cut of players to "Come to the rescue??" At least historically maybe 2 or 3 players get cut from a team, they either go to prep school, Barons, or Esmark. Has that changed?

Sounds pretty accurate