mrfreeze

This was probably a smart move. I do believe esmark and Yuri are much better card players than the guys at vengeance. This will defiantly strengthen esmark and give them the team they wanted, how ever that team is going to pretty much be the vengeance team of last year that now have increased fees, new uniforms and doing there part to help the local Ukrainian. Is he any better of a coach then they had, I really don't see much changing as for most of these kids hockey will be over sooner than they think or they will be streching the dream of playing tier 3 hockey some where if they choose so. I don't see this team qualifying for mid ams. 2 of them will eventually get nahl tenders in a another year or 2 that are required by the NAHL of all NAPHL teams and those kids will go to the NAHL camps and be cut. I think Allgheny, maybe SCIR may score a kid or 2 out of this group or kids that get pushed down and looks like Iceman may get some push down also and be able to field an ok Tier 2 team. Lots still in play. I heard 07 ppe tryouts filled with esmark, vengeance and local kids, wonder if we will see an increase in Pittsburgh kids at PPE this season or not, I heard the 06 ppe was the opposite and they lost a couple Pittsburgh kids and some of the kids they brought in last year left. Over under on the PPE 06 is 3 kids from Pittsburgh, feel free to put your money where you feel is right. I'll give 7 Pittsburgh kids as the line on the 07 ppe given what I heard tonight.

I would say Pens will still be a top 20 program at u16, SHAHA top 30, Vengeance and Esmark will struggle to get to the 50s. The rest really don't matter. I do think Vengeance was a AAA team last year and would have easily beat the top u15aa team like Allegheny and SCIR by 3 or more goals, they where a much bigger, stronger and faster on average per player then those 2 teams had on their roster, but now that you split them over Esmark and ,make 4 teams, even with Russian imports and PPE Pittsburgh cast offs, that those 2 teams will be on the lower end of the tier 1 AAA scale. I don't think any will even make Mid ams with Cleveland, Columbus, Culver, Gilmore, Indy and Tri State also at the U16 tier 1 level. I also keep hearing these kids are leaving town and going to Cleveland and Columbus tryouts this weekend also.

I was wondering who would pick up on that.

Here is my take what will happen at the 06 level, feel free to take the over or under. PPE will add an 07 Pittsburgh kid and will loose/cut 2-3 more Pittsburgh kids, Some of their current imports will go home or greener pastures. SHAHA will retain it's core, maybe pick up a player or 2 from Vengeance. Esmark will keep telling everyone that they have all these kids coming and basically take a bunch of disgruntle vengeance players and parents, maybe sprinkle in a couple Russian/Ukrain kid or 2, but with the current issues over there, I think this will be harder and not easier, but that is my own opinion and I am not an expert on Geo Politics and how they relate to youth hockey recruiting. I think they will enviably add some AA or A major kids to fill out the roster and so Yurri gets paid, and those kids will not play and at least 1 will quit before the year ends and go back to AA or Highschool. Vengeance will retain a couple players and will be similar to what happen with the 07 team last year. They may not fair as well during the season, but i think most of those players will be happy to be there and will develop and get better but will defiantly drop in the rankings, if that really matters. It's a shame, cause the Vengeance Hockey Director just does not see what is going on. He is so worried about Esmark and kids going there he had a meeting with the current parents basically telling them Esmark Bad, if you tryout or say the word Esmakr or Yurri, then don't come back. EGO's kill programs and his will be the death of that program. That is why they moved their tryouts up to run with and finish before Esmark. Preds = Are they even a AAA team, maybe they should just play tier 2 Iceman - i give them a 50% chance of fielding a team, but there is only a 10% chance of that. They have a lot of kids that left North Pitt, will they be welcomed back? Maybe some of them should tryout at the other spots if they want a place to play. I don't think the AA will reap that many players to be honest. SCIR and Allegheny will return most of its players and those 2 coaches will jump on any talent that falls through the cracks. NP still has a pretty deep group of 06 and might get a 07 or 2 to fill out it roster but does not have a solid goalie to compete with the other 2 at this point, maybe one will appear, but that program is geared more towards kids that play high school and will likely not play a schedule like SCIR or Allegheny, that would be appealing to entice a goalie to travel to them, but they will have one of the better coaching staffs in the area. I think they could be fighting for players with the Iceman and the NP tryout system does not far well when the other teams can quickly make players offers and secure them before tryouts end and not many want to wait around to find out if they made a team and some of these kids could be going through their 3rd or 4th tryouts. So in the end Tier 1 PPE SHAHA ESMARK VENGENACE Tier 2 SCIR ALLEGHENY NP PRED ICEMAN

Maybe all the bad press lately has the higher ups rethinking what they are pushing. I wonder if a change in ownership with the big club will have any effects or change in directions that they put on the local youth club. I guess time will tell and we will see if these imported players and skill instructors stay in town in the future. I'm sure u14 -u18 tryouts will be interesting this week at UPMC.

The guy in charge of the Vengeance does not have his finger on the pulse and often lacks communication. The u16 and U18 teams last year where new and the result of a parent that left years ago coming back with his kids after he wrecked all the other organizations he was at, the u15 had a coaching change and that team basicly split up and some went to shaha either by choice or cut, the goalie left for Cleveland. The u14 pretty much went to esmark because they also had a coaching change and did not get their way. Vengeance had a chance to really become a better program, but missed the boat. They still have good teams at the 08 and lower levels, but my guess is that will continue to fall apart as Esmark recruits those kids pretty heavy along with pens cuts and adds some imports to the mix. In the end you just swap players and sometimes you get slightly better, but these teams still fill their rosters and certain people profit heavily while selling the dream. Tryouts suck, people jumping all around, lying and playing games as well as coaches and organizations. Good luck, do what is best for your kid and family and make informed decisions. I always feel bad watching some of these kids go through 2-5 tryouts trying to get a spot, wish there was a better way.

I couldn't remember if it was 08 or 09. I stand corrected that it is the 08 group.

Ha, I called this one. Just watch what happens to the 07 ppe next week at tryouts.

I've been involved in hockey a long time at many different levels and positions and from what I have seen this happens at all organizations. I know of a few that do stay long term in one organization, but on average a player will play on 3 different organizations by the time he moves out of the armature ranks. Most of the reasons are development and moving to an organization that offers a higher level. For example a kid may start at his local rink for ADM, say Vipers then move to renegades for squirt or peewee cause they typically have a AA team, then onto a AAA team like the vengeance or the other options. I will say this the birth year teams have the most movement, typically when you have a group of people together like everyone brags about the benefits of being part of a BY team, they tend to pick each other apart and get on each others nerves and end up parting ways, and you can have entire teams or groups move if they don't get their way or a certain coach. 05 Vengeance was Preds, 06 Shaha was south pointe, 07 Huskies was Butler Valley, 08 or 09 Lebo soon to Shaha? I'm sure we can make a long list.

Wow, this statement could not be more true. The BK kid left, he was not cut. Don't worry they will pump the 07 that will make the program next year, that they developed him when in reality it was all his dad's hard work and dedication. He would have left this year and probably bailed because of having to do excel and NC, but they gave him a free pass and his daughter a job. If he would have said no to excel and NC, it would have been a disaster and a huge blow to what they are selling. I will say it now, that 07 PPE will blow up next year, turn over at least 8-10 kids, maybe more, lot of kids will leave including a long time board members kid that does not want to do excel/nc. The best kid will go to the 16u team, which will probably also blow up after loosing to the Cleveland Barons 3 times this year with all the cast offs, they cut. That 06 group will probably loose a couple more of the few Pittsburgh kids that are left as I think people are starting to realize having to do excel/NC and midget hockey costing $35,000 to $60.000 a year to play there, is not worth it and have other options. I'll be curious at what point will this change, if ever. New Pens ownership, will it eventually look at what is going on and get out of youth hockey or keep messing with it, will we see a new hockey director at UPMC in next year or 2? Sad part is the Academy programs are here to stay. Unfortunately if you kid is not a top ten kid in the country that gets a free pass, and you don't have lots of money, you kid will not be a PPE player past bantam. PPE does not care about the local kids. If your kid has the talent, it is best to leave Pittsburgh if you want to play at the higher levels. Looks at the 06 group, The best forward, defenseman and goalie that are from Pittsburgh, don't play in Pittsburgh. Can't wait to see the fall out this year at PPE tryouts and what happens at the bantam and midget levels.

Don't worry. I am sure PPE is bringing a whole new u14 team next year. Any Pittsburgh kid will likley get cut and either go out of town to play or end up with this group. The top kid on that team will probably go play u16 next year, if that current 06/u15 doesn't impload, but I am sure they have a line of out of town kid willing to donate to the king and his castle.

Why not just eliminat tier 2 all together? Make it all one group. So then the teams that are ranked in the 100's and higher stop bitching about how they are relivent. If the Vengenance 07 teams was allowed to play tier 2 or esmarks or any faux aaa team and won it, everyone here would be outraged saying they are a tier 1 team and don't belong. How many of you played on a spring league team and a team has a couple AAA players and people are mad. Everyone wants to control the party and you can only play if your kids are not better than mine. Also the comment about why do we have to drive and fly all over the country to play the same talent? Are you on one of these teams that play faux AAA, why are you bitching, you signed up, if your not on one of these teams, then why do you care. To be honest tier 2 makes no sense, it just a line drawn, some teams that are aaa are below the line, some are above the line, but they are far from the top. When I was choosing where my kids could play, i looked at more than just aa or aaa. Coaching, ice time, number of games, cost, how the kids got along, how the families got along, development, travel and other factors. Taking all this into account we made informed choise on where to tryout and what routes to take. Some worked out great, some we didn't make. Everyone needs to do what they think is best. Traveling is not a bad thing, kids get a better sense of the world, some are mini get aways, does it cost money, yep. But I get to choose how I spend my money. Do you see or hear of anyone on these traveling, independent teams saying look at those pahl teams, they stay home and save so much money and are so smart. wished I was them and didn't get to spend a couple extend weekends with my family and friend making memories that will remeber forever. Go sit in your house and turn the heat down and lights off to save money and don't come out in the world, please disconnect your internet and stop bitching about what is best for others, worry about yourself.

Is Esmark really an option? They have no u15 team right now, what are they going to do at u16 team next year. Lot of people say esmark develops it players when in reality they only worry about 16 and 18. The last 20 years all they do is go around and take PPE cuts and pick off other teams. The current 07 esmark team is 80% vengeance players that left cause they did not get what they wanted. It really came down to 2 players. Yurri is now trying to poach all the vengeance u16 team and telling everyone he is getting kids from Cleveland and all over. Lets see what happens. Now the Vengance have some good young teams, but after being together long enough, those teams will blow up by the time they get to bantam/midget. Then you have SHAHA and Pred who have had some success. It's the same thing every year just change the names and teams. So how many tryouts will your kid be in this tryout season. I'll be here with the popcorn watching the heards go from one tryout to another and saying I did not want to play for x team or coach anyway or how they should not play for the faux AAA team and should just play with my PAHL AA that also got cut from those other teams.

The statement of "creating a birth year team to keep kids together" is not reality. Take any BY team over the last 10 years and the turn over from formation to end is usally 50% per year. At 07 the huskies and shaha probably have the largest core of players, but that will change as they hit the midget high school years. If you argue birth year team are good for development, i would also disagree. Kids need adversity and the top kids of the minor BY would be better suited playing up and the lower kids would be better suited playing with kids closer to their own skill level where they can compete and be contributers. The talent level top to bottom on BY teams is greater than on your typical mix teams. Ask yourself if you have been on one or any teams, how they pick off the kids at the bottom and how they cost the team. Same is with the kids at the top, they wan to be at the next level up. Mix this over years and parents and players end up tearing each other up. I think 3 years is the max any group can really stay together when not factoring in skill. I still say, do whats best for your family and kids, no need to trash anyone or team you move on from and ignore the haters if you are lucky enough and work hard enough to climb the ladder to a higher team. Trust me around tryout time, people that bashed you for leaving for a higher team, even if it was a faux aaa team will be asking you, about getting their kids on these teams.

Thinking PAHL could be a powerhouse league is a bold statement. Maybe ask why those teams are leaving? PAHL has so many issues, it's a surprise its still around. You have 3 different types of Org that make up PAHL. Your Renagades, Alegheny, North Pitt and others that have 15 plus teams, then your Mid size like Beaver Yetis and your small like Wheeling, Huskies etc. All get the same vote. Go ask each what they think, they all complain about loosing player to bigger orgs, then the big one complain about loosing to AAA or independent.. Over the last 10 years 12u AA, 14u AA and 16u AA usally have 4 competive teams, the other 6 suck. What is the real benifit of staying in PAHL to play 2/3 of your games against crap. They can still get local games against the 3 or 4 simular teams and then find other simular games. My Hockey raning makes this easy and possible to search out simular teams. The higher you go and older you get the less likley of finding good competition. PPE does not play many teams in the area, maybe 1 or 2 depending on the area, They want to play team that are ranked in the top 25 in tier 1, Vengance, shaha, esmark depending on BY are ranked 30-60 and play teams close to them, they can play each other and work together to bring teams in. Then you get into your top tier 2 teams, typicall 4-5 local ones that can play each other and also work to bring teams in. This is like this in most cities. Problem is Darcy and PAHL will not change. This was brought up years ago about creating an expanded league, but was met with resistance from the mid to smaller orgs. The pens tried with the east west classic. But some couldn't handle the hockey ladder and allowing players to progress up and try to control everything. Well surprise, the market has adjusted and no we have independent teams. Guess what, pahl is in for a wake up call as Black Bear brings in another option. It happened at ADM, Why do you think PPE, RMU and NP have inhouse program and do a better job developping kids then the other do, not to mention the money to be made. You want to see PAHL become the powerhouse league, get rid of the director and stop making decision that are best for you and your kid and what is best for hockey and development. Have you ever talked to the kids or parents on those independent teams, ever here them say they miss PAHL or it was a mistake leaving. The only ones saying it suck are the ones that got left behind. It is the same parent that says bring back the AAA kids to PAHL AA, what they don't relize is if that was the case, their AA kid is now an A major or A Minor player. It's all a pryamid, the lower you go, the more people there are and the more that bitch.

I am sure someone is going to post that these kids should have just played PAHL. Then will come the stats about the likely hood of ever playing in the NHL. I get the odds, but always hated hearing this and people telling me or others how to spend your money and where to play. I am not rich and have been wise about how much I have spent on my kids and their sports an activities. No matter how far they have or will go, I can say, I have enjoyed the ride, the people we have met and friendships that will go far beyond their youth sports playing days. I enjoy the games and enjoy watching kids I have coached and their kids play and be involved. I does blow my mind how much PPE cost as well as the other simular programs across the country, but I can tell you if I had the money or hit the lottery, I would spend it on making my kids experience like he was in the nhl. Buy them a bus, private loker rooms, nice uniforms and whatever else to make the experience remarkable. Maybe even start my own program with reduced cost and less BS.

I think the bigger question should be why did those kids leave or get cut. Was it simply they are not good enough or other reasons. I'm sure they would have rather stayed in Pittsburgh. Pens Elite has definatly become one of the most expensive program in the country and seems to attrack/recruit kids from all over the world. Their teams do well overall. It does seem if you don't fit their mold you are better off leaving town. The best 06 forward left to play for BK, the D kid that went to the Barrons was probably the best at his age in Pittsburgh but was cut this season. I was told the 06 pens have only 5 kids that are actually from Pittsburgh while Cleveland has 6 on it's 06 team. I would say if the pens cut them, then they should really not make much of the difference going to the barons, but I guess time will tell. Let's see what happens after tryouts and see if this trend continues and watch the ones that leave and get cut. It does look like barrons are a lot cheaper and not requiring excel might make the drive worth it.

I would like to know how some of you would run a rink or if you would invest in rinks with the same thoughts, statements or ideas that are being made here? Would you not raise rates and reinvest back into the facility, or would you keep it a shit hole and do nothing and be called a rink slum lord. Would you create programing that would increase revenue or would you just rent the ice by hour to others and allow them to profit. Not to long ago rinks where a bad investment and where being sold off and closing. Now some have figured out how to make it work and create alternative revenue streams or ways to become profitable. A rink not making a profit is soon not to be a rink, so if you are against it, are you prepared to go somewhere else. In the end it is upto them to deliver on the programing and good programs can make or break a rink. If you look at Baierl Ice rink, they did the same as what is being said on here, they pushed out a lot of the private instruction and slowy limited a few back in, they raised the hourly rates as contracts expired, they introduced their own programing. That rink is booked morning to late night all season and all spring and summer. They do a great job and have reinvested back into the facility including new compersors, additional locker rooms and other upgrades, while I don't know they are currently profitabil at the moment with sut downs, I can sure say that rink is run top notch and is one of the nicer rinks in the area and compares with many of the new rinks that have been built much more recently. As far as the private instructors, I don't feel bad, I see them make $50 to $100 a kid and having 8 to 20 kids on the ice, good for them, I'm sure they are smart enough to work something out or find a better deal elsewhere, they are not going away and if they are really good, they will evolve into other buisness oppertuinties. I say this, the more rinks in the area, the better for the game and the people. I hope to see the current rinks able to expand, add sheets, add workout areas or things like roller hockey and keep the game growing, I don't want to see rinks closing and becoming warehouse or churches, it was not long ago that this happen to airport ice rink, almost happen to the blade runners "Baierl and Alpha" Mt.Lebo did not want to spend the money to fix it facilaty, Hess was a shit hole, Beaver County was looking to shut down, look what happen to southside rink, you want to talk about shitholes, does anyone remeber the rave parties it was hosting to stay a float and the mess after? I'll take paying a couple bucs extra fro ice, I'll spend my money on a coffee at the snack bar that I know is twice as much as it should be in order to make sure the rink stays a rink. I think I ranted enough for today.

Don't forget every kid that played last year and I think the year before now have 5 years of eligability. I think there was over 300 kids in the NCAA Transfer pool this year before RMU killed the program and they wave sitting out a year to transfer for this season, not sure about next. Lot of kids in the pipeline, now scholarship money will be interesting, but I am sure they can find some kids looking for post grad and work something out, the program will bounce back quicker than you think, just like new programs starting up usally have good sucsess. early, then dip then stabalize. I'm sure RMU will find some good players, and loose a couple good players, but lets face it, if you where really good, whats the draw to go to RMU when you could go to a Big Ten teams, North Dakota, BC or BU to name a few. Rumor was RMU was going to be the main teneant at UPMC if they build the 3rd rink and finally get the facility and locker room it wanted, but not being on campus probably does not help. This is why Hunt Armory could be a good thing being close to Chattam, Pitt and CMU, maybe Duquense could work out a deal with them and Pens also and grow college hockey in Pittsburgh. It would be exciting to see a City game at the ncaa hockey level or a back yard brawl. I'm sure it will never happen as long as I am alive, but one can wish.

The original plans and the plans the second developer submitted had them building a second level in the building and parking on the ground floor for aroung 150 paid spots. That alone was going to make that development money if the redevelopment authority sold the building at a decent price and gave some tax breaks. The ice rink just needed to break even along with the parking each plan had some additional developments like office space or apartments. I think I even said on here that this project may move along now that Peduto is on his way out. Lot of people trying to get rich off this project. I hope it goes through, another rink is good for all. We will see how it used and managed.

Update, found the roster, I knew the team had been picked. https://www.usahockeyntdp.com/news_article/show/1164869

I thought they picked this team already, they have a camp in May for a smaller group of players and the selection comes from this camp, I know they canceled it last year and just picked the team from their scouting reports. USA hockey and it's district suck at sharing this info, I found the camp roster, but not the team. I think the fesitival that starts today or tomorrow is just like the other ages and has no real end game other than exposing these kids to college and junior level coaches and giving them an overview on some options they may have in the future. I would agree with Danner comments about what did and still happens. It's funny cause they tell you it is all legit and even the speakers they have that are pros or semi pros will say they got passed over for the district, multi district or national camps. It's no different then any other tryout. Talking to some guys thar evaluated in the past, it was stated there is a lot of confussion on wether they are to select the best kids at the time of the tryout or the kids they think have the most potential. Overall Pittsburgh is starting to produce some good high level players. The cuurent 04 on the ntdp team from West Mifflin will probably be a top 10 pick in 2022 draft if he continues on the path he is on. I'm wondering if he will even go to college or straight to pro hockey. https://www.usahockeyntdp.com/news_article/show/1160303-2021-ntdp-evaluation-camp-roster-announced

If Iceman keep declaring Tier 2, but advertising as Tier 1, at what point will they no longer be able to declear Tier 1, I thought there are requirments and you need to have in order to be able to declear Tier 1 teams that are tournament bound. I thought they need to have current or past Tier 1 teams to meet these requirements.

My statement was only in hope of a school in that area would step up in the next couple years. I know the state of all the programs mentioned and over the last 20 years I have seen these as well as other programs at different levels. To make it work you have to get an AD willing to make it work and a school willing to take a chance, you could have outside influence and investors. It is highly unlikey, but you never know. Years ago W and J was on that path, I would have never thought that school would be a canidate for NCAA or even Robert Morris before they built Island Sports, but it did happen, atleast for RMU. They had a motivated AD, willing school and Hillman Corp as well as some others push and completed the rink. Again highly unlikley it will happen, but you never know. As far as Hunt Armory, it has been 6 plus years and many changes and stahls. It is also unlikley it will happen, but with an upcoming change to local Administration could find this project getting over the political hurdles it has faced. Why do you really think it has not gone through. It all comes down to money and who is making out in the deal. The ones in control want paid or their friends paid to make this happen. I can guarentee you that the people in charge of this project will require the use of certain contrators or firms at elevated prices in order to move forward.

It would seem strange that NCAA would be pushing this right now, starnge thing is RMU had plans to move the mens program to UPMC with the third rink, I don't think seating was to much better, but they would get an amazing locker room and access to the Pens workout facility. Being so far off campus did not make sense to me, but I do think it would have helped them recruit kids. I know when kids are looking at schools and junior programs the main thing they really look at is the facilities, sometime more than the education factor. Penn State has really taken over in this area as the go to and I think the rink and locker rooms has lots to do with it. The USHL facilities are also amazing, These programs are really spending money in this area. I think now would be an excelent time to push the Hunt Armory project, with Peduto on his way out we may see this actually happening and you could get the Pens and one of the local schools to step up and make this a home rink with a path to Division 1 hockey, Chattam could move in, Pitt and CMU are right there, Duquesne is not far. This could really be a good option for these college, add some diversity programing to make the current Karens happy. You could also work with PIHL and make this a netrual site location for games of the week. That location has plenty of space to build mutiple locker rooms for these programs, Central Catholic would also be a great option and could really grow it's program to another level. If they do the mini rinks, you could offer a great ADM option and use those for training and lessons. Just takes the right people to get behind it.