The Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Discussion

[Saucey]

Does anyone really care about the PPE anymore? Maybe after try outs.

[ChiefKeef]

They can claim a significant hand in roughly 17 kids getting D1 commitments between 2012 and 2023.  ‘Significant hand’ meaning the kid played there for more than 2 years.  They have a player advancement page that is beefed up beyond belief with hornets players,  kids who spent a year or two at PPE,  and kids who flat out left the program and spent teenage years elsewhere. 

The majority of D1 commitments from the Penguins Elite___ per their own website___ are not kids who played squirt and peewee hockey there nor are they players who spent significant time in the program.  This can all be verified by viewing these players Elite prospects pages.

2012-2023, 11 years, 17 kids. 1.5 player commitment a season average. Compared to the amount of time and money required to partake in that program__ that’s a joke. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

It also isn’t reflective of the talent pool in Pittsburgh or ‘kids who won’t work hard’ as one their coach’s  mentioned here prior.  It’s a direct reflection of how inefficient they are at developing athletes for the next level.  So when someone asks if anyone cares___ we should. People need to speak up.  The pro team is either complicit in or ignorant of how poorly that program operates. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

On the other hand, The Pittsburgh Vengeance have a completely viable program with names like Jon Zeiler, Nate Guinen, Gene Spadaro, Dave Dorsey, Marc Voit and others involved.  You will have to forfeit the jerseys,  and the shiny rink.  That’s it.  With those forfeiters you will receive proper development for your child from great coaches. And a hell of a lot better odds than 1.5 college commitment average. Coach’s who aren’t holding camps in Sweden to recruit players to come replace your kid.  
 

https://pphockey.com

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

The key is to stop enabling them.  Talking to you elite mite  parents.  Get the crew together,  forget the pressure from the coaches,  peer pressure from parent sycophants.  A few consecutive years of 9 year old hockey parents taking the ‘good kids’  anywhere but Cranberry will force Cranberry to align with their original purpose they were ‘founded on’.   Helping local hockey players succeed and such.  
 

They’re going to tell you everything they have to to get you to sign up because they need your money until bantam major. So just smile and nod in those one on one meetings___ so they don’t ostracize you.  Don’t let them know your intent.  Then when tryouts come,  just tell them you don’t have them money for it.  Better yet,  don’t say anything.  Just make sure you are coordinating with the other good kids parents behind the scenes.  You might lose one or two of the studs whose mom and dad are horny for the logo.  They belong to the streets though,  you don’t have to.  
 

The parents hold all the power___If they can manage not to fall for the manipulation as to why their kid needs to play there.  The parents decide who the ‘best program’ is by way of deciding which program gets the bulk of good kids.  If you look at the acumen of the Vegeance Staff compared to that of their employees__ anyone with an eye on getting their kid in good hands long term would be choosing Vengeance.  Not even a debate there. 
 

I have no affiliation with Vengeance.   I am just keenly aware of the landscape. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

One last educational piece for now.  All of what I am saying is based in fact and can be verified with simple google searches or by visiting the their website. 
 

I have not had experience with this in a while so I can only go off of what I hear from some friends with younger kids and siblings at the program.  Let’s talk about the Brick.  Team PA’s record at the brick is easily accessed.  It’s not good.  The 06 team was about as loaded as it gets with one current NTDP player,  a future NTDP player,  and a lot of stud players if we are being honest. They did not do anything there. Most say it was a cool experience but they would never do it again.  You stay in a mall in Edmonton for a week and a half where the biggest thrill for Team PA players usually ends up being the mall itself.  It also costs a lot of money to do it, the trip, the travel and such. 
 

The reason I bring this up and I’ve been told the brick is now being used as leverage to try to reel players into staying at the program.  and also to entice players to come to Cranberry.  I can’t verify it at all.  I’ve just heard this. The only people who can verify it are the ones who sit in these meetings and get a sense that that’s what’s being insinuated to them.  I understand parents desires to take part in things like the brick.  What gets lost is that,  especially for teams like team PA,  nobody cares next year who was on the brick team.  It comes and goes like everything else so don’t place that above your child’s every day development.  Especially if most of the good kids are playing at Harmarville or anywhere else___ then your brothers in arms with not doing the brick anyway.   I was told they have pre brick teams now. So all these strawmans have the potential to be used as bargaining chips for your child’s choice in hockey programs.  I’ll say it one more tome__ the record for team PA speaks for itself and there is no spring or summer hockey venture that will ever have a long term positive or negative effect on your child’s future.  No USHL scout, no D1 , heck  no club hockey coach gives the slightest shit if your kid played in the brick tournament.  Lastly, you will see over the years that some of kids that do the brick,  end up falling off from where they were as a 9 year old.  Some stay great.  But doing the brick meant nothing long term for either of those players.   You will see all the bravado with the brick,  or Cranberry in general and find the astonishing lack of substance behind both. 
 

You will hear any and everything to get your kid playing there.  Do the research.  Listen to people who care enough to try to help you see through the smoke and mirrors that younger hockey parents are susceptible to.  Or you will be on here writing tell all after tell all in 5 years as well. 
 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Carl Racki]

The only problem is that it is often hard to find good coaching at the squirt and peewee level in western PA.  The 2008 and 2009 Vengeance teams are pretty good but they have some pretty rough teams like the 2007 team, the 2013 team,...  I guess if you are playing somewhere other than Pens at those ages you should be doing skill development with a good skills coach.

  My other concern with a lot of programs at the squirt and peewee level is will they actually develop/teach the forwards to be puck possession playmakers and the defense to be skilled quarterbacks or will they teach dump and chase, box and one, rim the puck, off the glass and out, never through the middle,....  I see a lot of kids ruined and passed because of poor coaching or playing at to high of a level.

[ChiefKeef]

These other programs don’t have much to work with in terms of having a lot of players.  If you can get some of these younger parents to see what’s behind the scenes___ they end up putting two and two together and all of the sudden the Vengeance or whoever else has kids that form superior teams.  Pittsburgh Vengeance would be a top 10 program squirts through peewee __ if people said to hell with the Cranberry circus.  No offense but no shit that the other programs aren’t running the table in squirts and peewees. The kids are mainly all up in Cranberry.  Most will be back around eventually when they are 14 and jaded. 
 

Some teams may have had to allocate resources because they are being starved out of players.  However, which is why I bring the Vengeance up___ they have a shit load of Uber qualified individuals.  I’m sure if a shit load of Uber qualified players showed up, they are going to put their best foot forward for every birthyear that does. 
 

Im not talking 2006’s and 07’s.  Those people are way past the point of making any difference.  It’s about getting through to the younger crowd.  There’s a whole lot that the prospective squirt parent isn’t aware of.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Carl Racki]

17 minutes ago, ChiefKeef said:

These other programs don’t have much to work with.  Everyone is fooled and enamored with the Pens jersey.  If you can get some of these younger parents to see what’s behind the scenes___ they end up putting two and two together and all of the sudden the Vengeance or whoever else has kids that form superior teams.  Pittsburgh Vengeance would be a top 10 program squirts through peewee __ if people said to hell with the Pens circus.  No offense but no shit that the other programs aren’t running the table in squirts and peewees. The kids are mainly all up in Cranberry.  Most will be back around eventually when they are 14 and jaded. 
 

Some teams may have had to allocate resources because they are being starved out of players.  However, which is why I bring the Vengeance up___ they have a shit load of Uber qualified individuals.  I’m sure if a shit load of Uber qualified players showed up, they are going to put their best foot forward for every birthyear that does. 
 

Im not talking 2006’s and 07’s.  Those people are way past the point of making any difference.  It’s about getting through to the younger crowd.  You can have the pens jersey and some real shitty prospects or you can have real development and a potential future past amateur hockey.  

     I agree except the Vengeance have only done well with a couple birth years.  Yes, almost any organization could have a top 20 team if they got the players that the Pens have.  I don't know that they would develop them any better but they would be the top team. 

     If the parents get most of the top players to go to a certain organization and get a truly good coach I am sure it could be as good or possibly better than the Pens.  The 2006 SHAHA team is a great example.  It is extremely easy when you get all the top talent and can recruit.  It is a lot harder when you have to actually coach and develop the talent vs recruit it.  That is why I always find it entertaining to hear organizations claim to be developing players yet they constantly get rid of their players and recruit new ones that were developed elsewhere.  The Vengeance also recruit and roll through players just like the Pens.

[Carl Racki]

Not anti Vengeance or Pens, just pointing out that both tend to get the top talent and both have a lot of turn over/recruiting.  

[ChiefKeef]

The Vengeance recruit local players.  There is a big difference in trying to get the Stud 13 year old from Esmark… and having your coaching staff fly to Sweden for two weeks to recruit. 

 

I know some of the Vengeance people to an extent, there is ZERO chance they recruit outside players if all the good local players are showing up there. That program is ready and willing to focus on local players. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

Big shout out to the Shaha coaches and the other guys around town who are doing it the honest way. 

Local hockey in Pittsburgh has been dealt a real shitty hand.  So many good qualified people around who wouldn’t be exploiting local families. 
 

The name of the game is to keep locals there until bantam major.  It is hard to bring in billet and out of town kids up until bantam major.  So locals are essential to funding the program until then.  Then it turns into a circus. Look at the older age rosters and see how many Pittsburgh kids are on them. Look at the amount turnover year over year.   It’s all available information.  The crazy part is,  outside kids come here,  and often leave after a year because they don’t like it or there parents see the glaring reasons why they have so little success at moving kids on to higher levels of hockey. The current format there is a failure for the players in terms of development and general happiness.  Their results suck.  
 

At this point you just have to assume that the current leadership there has a free pass to do as they please.  The results for their program are piss poor,  and unfortunately they have a line out the door of mite parents who don’t know any better. Their demise is clear to anyone who’s been paying attention. They’re in critical condition at the older birthyears.  They’re too arrogant to realize that people are second guessing the value of their program,  and hearing the stories of how they treat people.  I imagine this will all blow up in their faces sooner rather than later.  Heard most of the kids on the midget teams are leaving again this year,  after all the kids the left last year. So they will attempt to bring in a new batch unassuming families.  Rinse repeat.  Not for too much longer though. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[nemesis8679]

With hockey advancement being so convoluted and confusing to most people, they have the rink and the logo. That's all they need to get the money. Unfortunately. Do you think a parent with the funds would want to go watch games at the Lemieux Center, or at shitty, dirty PIA? What sounds better to a kid- you can play for Pittsburgh Penguins ELITE, or you can play for Esmark Stars? Do you think even HALF of the parents or kids know what teams are ranked where, against their local choices of teams? I doubt it. 

The fancy, comfortable rink and the beautiful, well-known logo are formidable opponents for the competition. 

[forbin]

All it will take is an organization to offer full ice “AAA” mites and the numbers at the 66ers will diminish. I wonder if there’s a company that could facilitate that here. Oh wait…..there is. AHF offers it. 

 

[hockeyisgreat]

7 hours ago, ChiefKeef said:

 I imagine this will all blow up in their faces sooner rather than later.  Heard most of the kids on the midget teams are leaving again this year,  after all the kids the left last year. So they will attempt to bring in a new batch unassuming families.  Rinse repeat.  Not for too much longer though. 

Not sure why you think it will all blow up?  They will just go out and recruit more out of town kids to play under the Pens logo.  I bet there is an endless supply and they will always remain competitive.  The Lil 66ers up through Bantam will continue to pay for it all. The prestige of saying my kid plays for PPE is just too enticing.  There will always be enough families willing to fund the program.

Just the way it is no matter how much you try to educate us.  But you did a great job of spelling it out for those who want to listen.

[hockeyisgreat]

9 minutes ago, forbin said:

All it will take is an organization to offer full ice “AAA” mites and the numbers at the 66ers will diminish. I wonder if there’s a company that could facilitate that here. Oh wait…..there is. AHF offers it. 

 

Yep they need to advertise it better!  But it will come to PPE soon. Like someone said, where would you rather have your mite play?

Lemieux or PIA?   No Brainer! or no braines!

[HSFBLJ]

Ifs and buts, candy and nuts. The market in Pittsburgh doesn't support a competitor to PPE.  06 SHAHA is a great team but do you consider SHAHA a great organization?  Go back and read the mid am thread.  Move to Chicago or Minnesota, Pittsburgh seems to be a strange place in the hockey world.  

[stickboy]

Some interesting points brought up in posts above regarding PPE at younger levels.  But what about Bantam Major and Midget?  Stay away from them at those levels even if your player is good enough and has potential to play at the next level? Like it or not, they have the track record of kids moving on to the highest junior levels, and none of the other local options mentioned do.  That's putting a lot of faith in something unproven, to go all in with a start up!  It was mentioned that PPE midget teams are going bad, and people are leaving.  Looking them up on MHR, their midget teams are all basically Top 10.  Are people leaving on their own or are they getting pushed out in attempt to bolster rosters in order to compete nationally?   

[Danner27]

13 hours ago, ChiefKeef said:

On the other hand, The Pittsburgh Vengeance have a completely viable program with names like Jon Zeiler, Nate Guinen, Gene Spadaro, Dave Dorsey, Marc Voit and others involved.  You will have to forfeit the Pens jerseys,  and the UPMC rink.  That’s it.  With those forfeiters you will receive proper development for your child from great coaches. And a hell of a lot better odds than 1.5 college commitment average. Coach’s who aren’t holding camps in Sweden to recruit players to come replace your kid.  As do the PPE staff. 
 

https://pphockey.com

I always agree with a lot of what you say, but Dave Dorsey ? Come on man! Building a dek hockey team ? 

[ChiefKeef]

The rankings  are fool proof most of the time.  This isn’t exclusive to them and it’s one of those things most organizations strive for.  They play in leagues that,  unless they are getting blown out 8-0 every game,  the competition alone will keep them ‘top 15’ by proxy of playing those teams.  They also have good players there.  Whether they are locals or outside kids,  they can play.  
 

The better question is this ___ for a program with the resources they have. The facilities. The self described ‘best coaches in the country’. The rink. The academy that gives you a leg up on the competition. Why are they going to Sweden to recruit?  Why are they bringing in so many Canadian players? 
 

Someone else asked how I know it won’t last much longer. The answer to that and the last paragraph is that the word is out.  The hockey community is aware of and largely wants nothing to do with them. They’ve been recruiting in western states the last few years,  and word is getting around out there now too.  A California kid on either 06 or 07 just up and left in early January.  
 

Do you think they’re trying to recruit European players to become a dominant program?  Shattuck, BK, Mount, if these teams went to Europe it would be understandable___ they attract the high end kids in the first place.  They can’t even get good kids from Ohio to come play. They will always have malcontent rich parents to keep the dollars coming in,  but those teams being competitive are a different story. 
 

It’s a giant grift.  It’s below average. The amount of resources they bring in should have them competing with likes of of the very best programs in the country in both the rankings and player recruiting.  I don’t mean being ranked number 14 and thinking it’s good enough.  Most importantly with all the resources they require from families,  they should be producing a return on investment that’s a fuck ton better than 17 kids getting D1 commitments over 11 years.  
 

The proof is all available on their site.  The rosters for the last 5-6 years are available.  Anybody can see the turnover on the teams at the older ages.  They have a player advancement page,  anyone can take the time to look at the elite prospects of the players and see how much time they spent with them.  There’s a ‘real story’ and there’s the story the people in charge there would like you to believe so everyone keeps mindlessly spending money there.   I don’t need to argue it,  the info and results are readily available. 

Take your squirts and peewees elsewhere and then the grift in Cranberry ends. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Carl Racki]

1 hour ago, ChiefKeef said:

The rankings regarding PPE are fool proof most of the time.  This isn’t exclusive to them and it’s one of those things most organizations strive for.  They play in leagues that,  unless they are getting blown out 8-0 every game,  the competition alone will keep them ‘top 15’ by proxy of playing those teams.  They also have good players there.  Whether they are locals or outside kids,  they can play.  
 

The better question is this ___ for a program with the resources they have. The facilities. The self described ‘best coaches in the country’. The rink. The academy that gives you a leg up on the competition. Why are they going to Sweden to recruit?  Why are they bringing in so many Canadian players? 
 

Someone else asked how I know it won’t last much longer. The answer to that and the last paragraph is that the word is out.  The hockey community is aware of and largely wants nothing to do with PPE.  They’ve been recruiting in western states the last few years,  and word is getting around out there now too.  A California kid on either 06 or 07 just up and left in early January.  
 

Do you think they’re trying to recruit European players to become a dominant program?  Shattuck, BK, Mount, if these teams went to Europe it would be understandable___ they attract the high end kids in the first place.  The Pens can’t even get good kids from Ohio to come play. They will always have malcontent rich parents to keep the dollars coming in,  but those teams being competitive are a different story. 
 

It’s a giant grift.  It’s below average. The amount of resources PPE brings in should have them competing with likes of of the very best programs in the country in both the rankings and player recruiting.  I don’t mean being ranked number 14 and thinking it’s good enough.  Most importantly with all the resources PPE requires from families,  PPE should be producing a return on investment that’s a fuck ton better than 17 kids getting D1 commitments over 11 years.  
 

The proof is all available on their site.  The rosters for the last 5-6 years are available.  Anybody can see the turnover on the teams at the older ages.  They have a player advancement page,  anyone can take the time to look at the elite prospects of the players and see how much time they spent with the Pens.  There’s a ‘real story’ and there’s the story the people in charge at PPE would like you to believe so everyone keeps mindlessly spending money there.   I don’t need to argue it,  the info and results are readily available. 

Take your squirts and peewees elsewhere and then the grift in Cranberry ends. 

 

 

A lot of it is because kids/parents that have been at PPE through squirts and peewee start to wise up.  If they are still in the bottom half they intelligently decide to go play somewhere else where they will get an opportunity on the top line, power play, ..... 

  Other people decide they do not want their kids going to North Catholic and doing excel.  It is SOOOOO much money to play for PPE, do excel, and go to North Catholic.  They have to find new people that are willing to pay all that money and a lot of those people do not live in this area.  

  If the goal is to make as much money as possible at the Pens rink, they have done a good job maximizing profits.  Hard to argue that.  If the goal was to have a local top 30 team that is affordable then they certainly failed.  The sad reality of hockey is it is getting insanely expensive pushing more and more people out of the sport.  Look at how many less teams there are at the midget age levels.  Just my thoughts 

[Jkersman01]

Lots of good points. I agree with most. But are we considering that PPE only ‘started’ in 2012? That’s 10 years ago. If we’re going form an opinion on development of local kids from squirts through 18, that’s a 10 year period. Arguably, PPE only has maybe 2 recruiting years worth of opportunity for D1 commits (ignoring a stint in juniors first with an eye to being a freshman at age 20ish). In 2012, if you started as a first year squirt (ignore 66ers for now), you’d only be 19 now. 
To counter that, you can look at the older teams now, identify the local kids left, and narrow down that there are perhaps only a handful left, so those numbers won’t increase much as it relates to local talent. That would be valid. 

[forbin]

Does anyone know any player that started with PPE in 2012 and has since played exclusively with them until aging out? There has to be a few right?

[ChiefKeef]

The data is all there on the their player advancement page.  What the data largely implies is that they take credit for a lot of kids who spent one or so years in the program. Quite a few who joined at 18u for one season.  

I counted roughly 17 kids that spent significant time with the program and ended up with D1 commitments.  Some of those players didn’t even play squirts or peewees there,  I’m just giving them credit because the player was there from say 13 to 16. You can counter with available recruiting years all you want.  You people recruit everyone with a cell phone and you still only managed to have 44 kids get a D1 commitment in your 11 year existence.  

You know what I know that whoever is creating your advancement page is grasping at every straw possible and even with all the smoke and mirrors the results are still terrible.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

Didn’t somebody just make a thread with a link about how the mid am district is severely behind in player advancement or something?  I wonder who the big cheese program is in the mid am District.