2024 Pennsylvania High School Hockey Championships

[Pa Hockey]

19 hours ago, stickboy said:

If I was a TJ parent/fan/coach/player (which I’m not), I’d be disgruntled about the game misconduct call given to their leading scorer half way through the game.  Refs called it spearing and gave 5 and game for what looked like a love tap after being crosschecked.  Would be interesting to know where the ref is from. 

Now that I saw video this was a ludicrous call that ruined a great Championship game from a backside official from the blue line .............What a shame  

[JerryTime]

18 minutes ago, Pa Hockey said:

Now that I saw video this was a ludicrous call that ruined a great Championship game from a backside official from the blue line .............What a shame  

Looked like an attempted spear to the groin… meets the criteria in the rulebook so there isn’t really an argument

[Icebucket]

While it wasn't the most vicious spear, when the player makes the spearing motion especially after the whistle he opens himself up to a spearing call.  Downside here is if you call it spearing he has to get tossed.

Giving the player a 2 and 10 for unsportsmanlike conduct probably send the same message without putting the team shorthanded for 5 minutes and tossing the player from a big game.

[pickle]

This was a big call at a big moment in a Championship game when the game was still close.  I am surprised the refs made the call.  However, it was clearly a spearing motion and the penalty for spearing is a 5 minute major and game misconduct.     

The problem with the rules is that it was such a weak contact and the other player didn't even flinch or react further to it and can't even tell if the TJ player actually made contact.  So perhaps the "intent to injure" could be argued.  The TJ player could have cross checked him back, slashed his leg, started a bit of a scrum or many other more severe retaliation options and still got away with a lot less penalty time and be able to play the rest of the game. 

Hopefully this is a good learning opportunity and a good teaching example for other coaches to discuss with their players in the future.  I know I will include in future video sessions with my players as we discuss these topics.   

[nemesis8679]

3 hours ago, Pa Hockey said:

Now that I saw video this was a ludicrous call that ruined a great Championship game from a backside official from the blue line .............What a shame  

Perhaps the kid said or did something in the course of the game that pissed the ref off, so he called something that otherwise wouldn't have been called? 

I've seen it happen before.

[Pa Hockey]

50 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Perhaps the kid said or did something in the course of the game that pissed the ref off, so he called something that otherwise wouldn't have been called? 

I've seen it happen before.

 Pennsylvania High School Hockey Championships Should used seasoned officials who understand the game and control their emotions and make the calls to the best of their ability. What bothers me is that he didn't talk to his fellow officials that were closer to the play (he was  at blue line and backside official) and did not communicate with TJ bench, which normally better officials do. Player is A Captain and top scorer and I know him to be a very good kid. TJ got a bad deal IMO. Read Coach Zeiler's assessment .....it says it all !

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/hsother/2024/03/23/high-school-state-hockey-thomas-jefferson-chartiers-valley/stories/202403200158

[TheRightCall]

4 minutes ago, Pa Hockey said:

 Pennsylvania High School Hockey Championships Should used seasoned officials who understand the game and control their emotions and make the calls to the best of their ability. What bothers me is that he didn't talk to his fellow officials that were closer to the play (he was  at blue line and backside official) and did not communicate with TJ bench, which normally better officials do. Player is A Captain and top scorer and I know him to be a very good kid. TJ got a bad deal IMO. Read Coach Zeiler's assessment .....it says it all !

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/hsother/2024/03/23/high-school-state-hockey-thomas-jefferson-chartiers-valley/stories/202403200158

Just because you know him and he is a "good kid" doesn't preclude him from taking an unwise penalty. Are you implying that this official is not experienced? How do you know? Granted, for a critical call such as this, I would have consulted with my partner for sure; however, if an official sees a penalty, no matter where he or she is on the ice, he or she needs to make the call. Again, you are implying that since he was the back official that he could not effectively make this call, which is not a logical statement at all.

 

The point being that this player committed a spearing penalty in a big game; the rules are clear. There is not a different rulebook when playoffs come around; the key is for the officials to effectively communicate with everyone. But again, it was the player who committed the penalty; he only has himself to blame.

[Pa Hockey]

9 minutes ago, TheRightCall said:

Just because you know him and he is a "good kid" doesn't preclude him from taking an unwise penalty. Are you implying that this official is not experienced? How do you know? Granted, for a critical call such as this, I would have consulted with my partner for sure; however, if an official sees a penalty, no matter where he or she is on the ice, he or she needs to make the call. Again, you are implying that since he was the back official that he could not effectively make this call, which is not a logical statement at all.

in

The point being that this player committed a spearing penalty in a big game; the rules are clear. There is not a different rulebook when playoffs come around; the key is for the officials to effectively communicate with everyone. But again, it was the player who committed the penalty; he only has himself to blame.

he didn't talk to his fellow officials that were closer to the play (he was  at blue line and backside official) and did not communicate with TJ bench. He went and directly threw the player out of  the game. Watch the Video again and assess how dangerous the intent was.....love tap at best after he was clubbed in the back by the Pennridge player (No Penalty)!

Edited March 25 by Pa Hockey

[stickboy]

It was TheWrongCall!

[TheRightCall]

17 minutes ago, stickboy said:

It was TheWrongCall!

😂of course it was!

[carroll81]

2 hours ago, Pa Hockey said:

he didn't talk to his fellow officials that were closer to the play (he was  at blue line and backside official) and did not communicate with TJ bench. He went and directly threw the player out of  the game. Watch the Video again and assess how dangerous the intent was.....love tap at best after he was clubbed in the back by the Pennridge player (No Penalty)!

 

The back referee is the exact person to make that call.  That is why they are there.  There is no way the low official could have seen the spear through the crowd.

Again, doesn't matter what the intent was.  USA Hockey is very clear on it.  Any spearing motion is 5+GM at a minimum.

Not exactly sure who that official was, but I am familiar with the process for assigning those officials.  They are all very experienced.

[TheRightCall]

19 minutes ago, carroll81 said:

 

The back referee is the exact person to make that call.  That is why they are there.  There is no way the low official could have seen the spear through the crowd.

Again, doesn't matter what the intent was.  USA Hockey is very clear on it.  Any spearing motion is 5+GM at a minimum.

Not exactly sure who that official was, but I am familiar with the process for assigning those officials.  They are all very experienced.

Excellent points, that is what I was trying to convey. But logic doesnt override sour grapes.

[Pa Hockey]

11 hours ago, TheRightCall said:

Excellent points, that is what I was trying to convey. But logic doesnt override sour grapes.

I have nothing to do with TJ and the soft call ruined a very good hockey game between two very good championship teams. It happened in the past and the officials can do better. TJ was the benefactor of poor officiating in the 2022 Penguins Cup with Franklin, which was a disgraceful display of poor officiating.  

[JerryTime]

4 hours ago, Pa Hockey said:

I have nothing to do with TJ and the soft call ruined a very good hockey game between two very good championship teams. It happened in the past and the officials can do better. TJ was the benefactor of poor officiating in the 2022 Penguins Cup with Franklin, which was a disgraceful display of poor officiating.  

https://www.usahockey.com/officiatingprogramregistration

[TheRightCall]

23 minutes ago, JerryTime said:

https://www.usahockey.com/officiatingprogramregistration

This dude will never register to be an official, but he will stand outside the glass criticizing everything that he doesn't agree with. While the spear was "soft," it is still a spear, and thus, 5/game is correct call.

[stickboy]

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

[JerryTime]

4 minutes ago, stickboy said:

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

So the responsibility is on the officials and not the player.... got it. 

Here's the link, hope to see you out there soon: https://www.usahockey.com/officiatingprogramregistration

[Pa Hockey]

11 minutes ago, stickboy said:

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

Ive done officiating, umpiring and administration  , Bravo for the above post ! 

[TheRightCall]

5 minutes ago, Pa Hockey said:

Ive done officiating, umpiring and administration  , Bravo for the above post ! 

Haha--bottom line is the player speared the kid. Spearing is against the rules in a very clear and specific way. There is no "playoff" rulebook. Of course, with the modern society, the responsibility for one's actions has been eradicated by the "feel good" nature of people. No wonder our country is in such shambles.

[Pa Hockey]

29 minutes ago, stickboy said:

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

Excellent post 

[stickboy]

Make sure you don’t creep over that speed limit, take office supplies from work, or throw out someone else’s mail!

[Corsi]

29 minutes ago, stickboy said:

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

Really, "the ultimate consequence", actually that's incorrect.  The lowest consequence for a spear is the call which was made, a 5 minute major and a game misconduct.  The "ultimate consequence" escalates to a match penalty.  Yes, "everyone in attendance was dumbfounded" might be correct because they were watching the play up ice as opposed to away from the puck.  The rear official that made the call is 100% doing the job that he is out there for, which is to be especially vigilant for penalties which occur away from the play.  Regardless of if the spear was "violent" or "soft", a spear is a spear.

[ANKLEBENDER]

This is what creates such confusion with fans, parents, and newer officals for that matter.  There is a black and while rule book with clearly defined actions and options for penalties. However, there is "spirit & intent" of the rule that officials learn as they develop to higher levels.  Officials who apply this "grey area" aka "game management" effectivly are able to move on to upper levels and probably the ones most want on their games. 

Unfortuantely, when it comes to playoff time, some of the early developing officals try to make a name for themselves or overthink calls.  This is why you sometimes see off the wall penalties called in playoff rounds as opposed to the regular season.  Also, USAH High-School Nationals were last weekend at Ice-Line in West-Chester.  I suspect the officials working the games were in this mindset with national supervisors in the area.

With possible national supervisors in the building, the ref may have made the call to show they have the "courage" to make that call in a big game...or out of "fear" that if they didn't make the call or call a lesser penalty, they may lose an opportunity to move on to a higher level.  Again, the player opened the door and put the refs in the position to make a grey area call that 1/2 the people will always say was right and 1/2 will say was wrong no matter what reasoning is provided.

By rule was it a "spear" ? - Yes.  Did the action fall under "spirit & intent" of the rule? - No.  Many times officials call half ass spears and "cup-checks" as slashing during the regular season, why change in the playoffs/championship?  Could the ref have called slashing on this play (possible additional 10 min misconduct dependiing on how the game was going at that point), with high level coaches on each bench, in a close state championship game, knowing that GM's and Match penalties carry over to the teams after the player ages out, and nobody including supervisors would have been any the wiser? Probably, but they didn't, they went with 5+G (though I was told the call was a Match)

[TheRightCall]

3 hours ago, ANKLEBENDER said:

This is what creates such confusion with fans, parents, and newer officals for that matter.  There is a black and while rule book with clearly defined actions and options for penalties. However, there is "spirit & intent" of the rule that officials learn as they develop to higher levels.  Officials who apply this "grey area" aka "game management" effectivly are able to move on to upper levels and probably the ones most want on their games. 

Unfortuantely, when it comes to playoff time, some of the early developing officals try to make a name for themselves or overthink calls.  This is why you sometimes see off the wall penalties called in playoff rounds as opposed to the regular season.  Also, USAH High-School Nationals were last weekend at Ice-Line in West-Chester.  I suspect the officials working the games were in this mindset with national supervisors in the area.

With possible national supervisors in the building, the ref may have made the call to show they have the "courage" to make that call in a big game...or out of "fear" that if they didn't make the call or call a lesser penalty, they may lose an opportunity to move on to a higher level.  Again, the player opened the door and put the refs in the position to make a grey area call that 1/2 the people will always say was right and 1/2 will say was wrong no matter what reasoning is provided.

By rule was it a "spear" ? - Yes.  Did the action fall under "spirit & intent" of the rule? - No.  Many times officials call half ass spears and "cup-checks" as slashing during the regular season, why change in the playoffs/championship?  Could the ref have called slashing on this play (possible additional 10 min misconduct dependiing on how the game was going at that point), with high level coaches on each bench, in a close state championship game, knowing that GM's and Match penalties carry over to the teams after the player ages out, and nobody including supervisors would have been any the wiser? Probably, but they didn't, they went with 5+G (though I was told the call was a Match)

Very well said. As an official, even though it was (by rule) a spear, I assess a minor for slashing and explain to TJ coach (and other side if needed) what I was doing. And specificlly tell the "spearer," that he is very lucky.

[stickboy]

So we agree - it was a bad call 😂