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Preds birth year teams all playing independent schedule


RJUSHL
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11 hours ago, muckerandgrinder said:

I want PAHL to be successful and a place where all skill levels are nurtured. The landscape has changed and it won’t happen when they keep running out the same old model year after year for AA all the way down to B.
This is another contributing factor as to why some teams, right or not, leave.

Interesting thoughts in your post. Do you think having AA Minor divisions (with verified rosters) would be a good thing for PAHL?

I do agree that things need to change in the AA divisions. That's where we're losing teams.

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1 hour ago, hockey57410 said:

Vengance are like the aviators in that if you pay enough money, dad can bring all his kids, relatives, and their friends and even be the "coach" I'm sure that team will move somewhere next year with a different jersey. 

I don't think this is true across the board. Like most organizations, some birth years have strong teams, and others don't. Vengeance certainly has some good teams at other birth years.

But Vengeance are a completely different discussion. I'm more worried about PAHL organizations that are pulling their top BY teams and going independent. 

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On 9/13/2021 at 10:28 AM, aaaahockey said:

I don't know anyone to ask but I saw that and thought it was very strange.  

Preds 09 played up in the 08 AA PAHL last year and indeed did get pounded....the size difference between 09 and 08 was a huge factor.  As such, they decided to go independent this year in an effort to play an 09 AAA schedule....

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One thing I might be able to get behind is having BY divisions in addition to A&B. I think having AA major and minor makes it too open ended. That being said, that will almost certainly make it impossible for a small program to field a AA team.  I’m not overly hip on the AA landscape so maybe this is a non-issue. 
 

But a possible compromise that might make sense is:

BY older year

BY younger year

Open A

Open B

 

If there needs to be more dividing from there then so be it. 

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53 minutes ago, BACKCHECKING said:

Pittsburgh hockey divisions – ( REALITY )

PPE – AAA

( FAUX / INDEPENDENT TEAMS ) – AA

PAHL – A Major and below

There are at least three or four teams in PAHL that are legit AA each year. That's too simplistic.

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2 hours ago, BACKCHECKING said:

Pittsburgh hockey divisions – ( REALITY )

PPE – AAA

( FAUX / INDEPENDENT TEAMS ) – AA

PAHL – A Major and below

Why do you care how different regions handle the letters?

I'm sure you're correct if you compare Western PA to GTA, Chicago, Minnesota, Detroit, etc. But we have PAHL AA teams constantly beating up on Western NY, Ohio, MD, DC, and Virginia AAA teams. And we constantly have PAHL A teams doing the same against many AA teams from those same areas.

What I don't want is half of the good teams just completely ditching PAHL.

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1 hour ago, Tendymom said:

Preds 09 played up in the 08 AA PAHL last year and indeed did get pounded....the size difference between 09 and 08 was a huge factor.  As such, they decided to go independent this year in an effort to play an 09 AAA schedule....

I can somewhat see the rationale, but wouldn't last year have been the year to play an independent schedule?

If the Preds 09 would've stayed in PAHL AA this year they would've had one of the better teams, but it's not like they would breeze through the competition. SHAHA, North Pgh, and maybe Allegheny would've been good competition. The Preds 09 would've been right in that mix. Lebo, Foxes, and Rebellion 09 teams would've been a notch below but certainly not blowouts. It would've been a fun division with good competition. Having one of the better (prob not the best) 09 team leave PAHL AA hurts the whole division and can have a ripple effect.

If there was an AA Minor division last year with verified 09 rosters, do you think that would've changed the mind of the Preds to leave PAHL?

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3 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

One thing I might be able to get behind is having BY divisions in addition to A&B. I think having AA major and minor makes it too open ended. That being said, that will almost certainly make it impossible for a small program to field a AA team.  I’m not overly hip on the AA landscape so maybe this is a non-issue. 
 

But a possible compromise that might make sense is:

BY older year

BY younger year

Open A

Open B

I think AA Major and AA Minor would solve the exact problem you mention of small programs not being able to field a AA BY team. Why do you think it's too open ended?

If there is a smaller organization that doesn't want a BY team, they could put together a team of primarily kids in their major year with a few minor year kids sprinkled in. Those teams (depending on placements) would have the opportunity to play AA Major. But the AA Minor division is truly protected with no major year kids. This solves the problem of good minor year teams having to make the decision of 1) Play PAHL AA and get smoked because of size, not skill, 2) Play Major Black, but still against mostly older kids, or 3) Go independent and only play other BY teams. Unfortunately option 3 seems to be becoming more common.

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3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I think AA Major and AA Minor would solve the exact problem you mention of small programs not being able to field a AA BY team. Why do you think it's too open ended?

If there is a smaller organization that doesn't want a BY team, they could put together a team of primarily kids in their major year with a few minor year kids sprinkled in. Those teams (depending on placements) would have the opportunity to play AA Major. But the AA Minor division is truly protected with no major year kids. This solves the problem of good minor year teams having to make the decision of 1) Play PAHL AA and get smoked because of size, not skill, 2) Play Major Black, but still against mostly older kids, or 3) Go independent and only play other BY teams. Unfortunately option 3 seems to be becoming more common.

I just think it opens to door to mixed BY teams that aren’t really the quality of team you’re trying to help develop to sneak in as AA minor when they could just as easily be A Major. 
 

Id rather go with the BY model which would be each programs top team in that BY. The more I think about it, maybe if a mixed BY team really wanted to and we’re able to they could qualify for the upper BY division. 

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12 minutes ago, dazedandconfused said:

I'm sure once the new owners get in there, they'll have all their rink teams playing in their own league. Beware the Bear.

I agree and honestly I don’t see it as a negative thing... maybe it will shake things up a bit around here.

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8 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I don't think this is true across the board. Like most organizations, some birth years have strong teams, and others don't. Vengeance certainly has some good teams at other birth years.

But Vengeance are a completely different discussion. I'm more worried about PAHL organizations that are pulling their top BY teams and going independent. 

not all organizations let full teams join their association, but there are some that are known to let coachs/dads bring in a almost full team.  I think people on here probably know which ones do and which ones dont

the problem that poses is some of those pahl teams who want to be independent or AA/a teams get mad when organization won't let them, so they jump to these other organizations that will let them.  also, if you ever look at schedules, the independent and AA/a teams rarely play any PAHL teams.  they are afraid of losing.  they have no problem driving to Columbus or buffalo and going 0-3 over the weekend with a 4-30 goal differential as long as it isn't a PAHL team.

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3 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

I just think it opens to door to mixed BY teams that aren’t really the quality of team you’re trying to help develop to sneak in as AA minor when they could just as easily be A Major. 
 

Id rather go with the BY model which would be each programs top team in that BY. The more I think about it, maybe if a mixed BY team really wanted to and we’re able to they could qualify for the upper BY division. 

I like it. I know it's petty, but parents and teams don't like the big swing of playing AA in their major year, then back down to an A division the following year. Pendulum swinging back and forth.  One year they play against kids the same age, the next year they play against bigger, older, but less skilled kids. This solves that issue and I think this would keep more of the better teams in PAHL.

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There are approximately 8 organizations that I can see supporting BY teams. 

Hornets / N. Pitt / SHAHA / Preds / SCIR / S. Pitt /  Allegheny / Foxes

That said, it would be really hard to have  8 organizations with BY teams without wondering how it compromises the rest of the organizations and also teams within their divisions. I think it would be great for the organizations involved but also cause a massive competitive imbalance throughout the rest of the league that would be playing mixed BY. You would have teams like Cambria and Westmoreland fielding teams with their top players playing against the essential “team 3”s from the larger orgs. As I stated before, many of the teams on the outer regions of the PAHL jurisdiction already have 3-4 players per team playing a few divisions below their talent level. 

On the other hand, the better “known quantity” tournaments in the country (CCM, Superseries etc…) are all trending toward birth year divisions. The mixed BY tournaments like MYHockey etc. are such a crap shoot with lopsided and mismatched divisions way too often.

it’s a tough call in a day and age where even everyone A Major and above are supplementing their PAHL schedule with teams from Ohio, NY etc.. and birth year being a factor in scheduling those games. 

I only have ideas but can’t form a perfect solution as of yet. 

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On 9/14/2021 at 7:08 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

the 2005 Vengeance team got smacked around all weekend not to mention being out shot 2-1,  and one game 4-1.... One daddy put both teams together.....

 

I remember a few years ago, the vengeance tried a U18 AAA team. They literally finished just a few spots above dead last in the rankings. Losing games consistently by double digits. 
 

I was under the impression that a very good skills guy is coaching one of the real young teams now, maybe he can turn the place around. 

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On 9/14/2021 at 7:08 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

the 2005 Vengeance team got smacked around all weekend not to mention being out shot 2-1,  and one game 4-1.... One daddy put both teams together.....

 

One of my boys just pointed out to me “dad you know the parent he’s talking about” I do ? after a small conversion I do! I guess he’s not calling games anymore ? Looks like things haven’t changed much, this is his second run with vengeance. My son just told me in the past three years one of his kids went vengeance-Lebo-predators now back to the vengeance. 

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27 minutes ago, muckerandgrinder said:

There are approximately 8 organizations that I can see supporting BY teams. 

Hornets / N. Pitt / SHAHA / Preds / SCIR / S. Pitt /  Allegheny / Foxes

That said, it would be really hard to have  8 organizations with BY teams without wondering how it compromises the rest of the organizations and also teams within their divisions. I think it would be great for the organizations involved but also cause a massive competitive imbalance throughout the rest of the league that would be playing mixed BY. You would have teams like Cambria and Westmoreland fielding teams with their top players playing against the essential “team 3”s from the larger orgs. As I stated before, many of the teams on the outer regions of the PAHL jurisdiction already have 3-4 players per team playing a few divisions below their talent level. 

On the other hand, the better “known quantity” tournaments in the country (CCM, Superseries etc…) are all trending toward birth year divisions. The mixed BY tournaments like MYHockey etc. are such a crap shoot with lopsided and mismatched divisions way too often.

it’s a tough call in a day and age where even everyone A Major and above are supplementing their PAHL schedule with teams from Ohio, NY etc.. and birth year being a factor in scheduling those games. 

I only have ideas but can’t form a perfect solution as of yet. 

Really good thoughts. That's a good point about BY helps in scheduling those independent supplemental games that most AA teams do. Huge factor actually.

I think you're right that it would create some imbalance, but it's not like organizations like Cambria or Westmoreland are fielding AA teams anyways. I think there are more organizations than not in this category so I don't think much would change for them. Their top teams would be one of the higher A Major divisions just like before. 

But even mid-size organizations like Rebellion (former Rats) are now doing BY teams and have attracted a surprising number of good new kids because of that and have some really good BY teams now. That trend is going to continue I would think (teams advertising BY teams attracting more kids). And I have no idea if BY teams are good in this area or not, but it's going to spread out the talent a bit. A kid that doesn't make a BY team playing AA at North PGH for example, will most likely try out for some other BY teams nearby like maybe the Foxes. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.

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28 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

I was under the impression that a very good skills guy is coaching one of the real young teams now, maybe he can turn the place around. 

You may be thinking of Marc Voit? I believe he's coaching the 2010 Vengeance team this year. His older son was just drafted by the Maple Leafs this summer. I've heard good things about Marc.

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Is PAHL going to be the "get off my lawn" guy or they going to adapt to national trends that they have no control over and start offering AA birth year or AA major/minor divisions at all age groups?

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8 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I can somewhat see the rationale, but wouldn't last year have been the year to play an independent schedule?

If the Preds 09 would've stayed in PAHL AA this year they would've had one of the better teams, but it's not like they would breeze through the competition. SHAHA, North Pgh, and maybe Allegheny would've been good competition. The Preds 09 would've been right in that mix. Lebo, Foxes, and Rebellion 09 teams would've been a notch below but certainly not blowouts. It would've been a fun division with good competition. Having one of the better (prob not the best) 09 team leave PAHL AA hurts the whole division and can have a ripple effect.

If there was an AA Minor division last year with verified 09 rosters, do you think that would've changed the mind of the Preds to leave PAHL?

Exactly true. Two years ago in u10 when 09s were top of the age group-Allegheny won AA followed by State College then Mt Lebo. Preds may have changed some kids on the team but they weren’t even top 3 when 2009s were oldest for u10

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