Question for PIHL JV Coaches.

[Denis Lemiuex]

2 hours ago, Saucey said:

... we keep playing JV teams loaded with 04s and 05s for some reason. I will save my complaints about PIHL

I think a lot less kids came out for programs. COVID? My kids play for a big program where they wouldn't keep seniors/juniors normally, but the kids weren't there.

That was nice of you to share. I think high school hockey presents a unique challenge in that you can have a wide degree of disparity in age and talent on one team, particularly a small program. Some players are ready for system work and others really still need the basics.

 

And that is why HS hockey is the toughest to coach and involves a lot more talent and effort that coaching amateurs.

[HockeyHockey]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:19 PM, rkowallis said:

This is a great thread initiated by a great question.  I will offer a few opinions as I coach JV at McDowell and have been a coach for 20 some years.

First let me offer that JV hockey is absolutely developmental. You need to have effort for JV but you need to have effort AND execution for varsity. 

Practices AND games are treated much differently than varsity because they are not the same.

JV practices look like:

50% skill development (power skating, simple passing, stickhandling, shooting)

25% systems drills (breakouts, regroups, angling, cycling, etc)

25% competition drills (1v1s, 2v1s, net front battles, simple puck races, etc)

There is A LOT of teaching that goes into each of those components…

Skill development: we are trying to make them faster, stronger skaters, every year we have to teach kids how to pass and catch passes on their backhand, we have to get their shots quicker and stronger, stickhandle with their heads up…

Systems drills: they are broken down into much smaller components than varsity. We have to teach them how to use the dots, how to support the puck, how to create space for themselves, do they need to use a direct pass, area pass, indirect pass? We deal with a lot of the why you’re doing what you’re doing.  Hockey is such a fluid game that the why is VERY important.

Competition drills: we have to teach proper lanes to the puck, puck protection, self-protection, leverage, etc

JV coaches obviously teach their programs systems but most of that is done on the board in the locker room or thru video review AND in the way we structure the practice drills. Many of the drills varsity teams run are worthless to JV teams because there would be too many breakdowns in skill and execution.

Generally speaking the season is broken into 1/3s. In the first third, your practices are geared toward the skill level of the bottom third of your players, the middle to your average player and then the last third pushes even your most skilled players. Its 50/25/25 all season long though. By February, 75% of varsity practice is breakouts and special teams.  JV teams may work on special teams but its more the principles rather than structure (creating 2v1s with the advantage and eliminating them on the kill)

The goal is to have your players be able to step into varsity as upperclassmen as complete players.  Players that have effort and execution inside whatever drill or system they want to run.

As far as games, I will repeat that only effort is required at JV.  If you compete your hardest, you have EARNED the ice time.
Now the caveat here is that a big part of coaching is that you try to put kids in positions to succeed so everything is not exactly equal. JV coaches dont match lines like varsity teams. If a varsity coach has an off zone draw and he sees the other teams third D pair out, that coach is probably putting out his top line. At JV, the opposite is true much of the time. JV coaches will put out their third line to give them the opportunity to get some off zone pressure against the other teams weaker players. But conversely, the third line MAY get a shorter shift if there is a dzone draw and the other team has their top line on the ice.

I know this was a long response but I wanted to offer insights as to how JV teams are run. As for McDowell, we are down to about 10 healthy players because we keep playing JV teams loaded with 04s and 05s for some reason. I will save my complaints about PIHL JV team placement for another day, however.

I agree ice time is earned with effort.  Even at lower levels though, I have seen ice time not be equal for kids working just as hard or perhaps even harder, as the kids with "more" skill and not just in certain situations.  Interested in your  view on this  and if it differs for travel teams vs school teams?  

Edited February 13, 2022 by HockeyHockey

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 hour ago, HockeyHockey said:

JV hockey is Developmental? I'm sorry but if you don't have the developmental side down, you shouldn't be playing. 

It is developmental. That is what all JV sports are. Not all organizations have full rosters at the JV or even varsity levels. Therefore they have to…..wait for it……..develop players. 

[HockeyHockey]

7 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

It is developmental. That is what all JV sports are. Not all organizations have full rosters at the JV or even varsity levels. Therefore they have to…..wait for it……..develop players. 

Makes sense. Player development is key at every level. I think I was being too literal about development, like new to the sport players. 

[rkowallis]

16 hours ago, HockeyHockey said:

I agree ice time is earned with effort.  Even at lower levels though, I have seen ice time not be equal for kids working just as hard or perhaps even harder, as the kids with "more" skill and not just in certain situations.  Interested in your  view on this  and if it differs for travel teams vs school teams?  

Thank you for asking.  I do have some opinions on the matter(s)...

Regarding your comment about ice time not being equal for hard working kids...

That is tough for me to answer.  Obviously, at face, that is just an unfair situation.  However, a lot of the time, its nearly impossible to make that distinction with any part of the game save for maybe an odd-man advantage in transition defense and even then you never really know for sure.  What I mean by that is you can define effort in so far as kids busting their butts to get back underneath the puck to even the other team's advantage. Maybe you can make that distinction with F1 on the forecheck but then you really would need to know where they want F1 to push the puck or where to make contact.

I will offer a couple of examples:

Say your team employs a 2-1-2 backcheck where the D stay inside the dots, F1 back check is assigned to the puck side with direct pressure on the puck, free to make contact at any point in the defensive transition. F2's assignment to trail the play up the strong side dot line and take away a pass to the other teams 3rd player in (take away the high slot) and your F3 backchecker is assigned to play the opposite dot line and is assigned the WS of the offensive zone.  Now, say that F1 and F3 do their jobs but F2 looks like he is giving max effort to get to the puck but does not cover the high slot and the puck carrier turns back at the dot and centers the puck to unmarked player in high slot.  While F2 should be commended for the effort to get back, that is also a huge mistake to have 2 Fs + SS D on the puck, WS D on the center lane drive and nobody covering the delay.

Now, look at it from the team that just took that shot.  Say the player that took the shot tried to go high glove and the puck went just over the bar.  That team employs a 1-2-2 forecheck.  The player that was the center drive cant beat the D to the puck and becomes F1.  F1 pushes the puck toward the original puck carrier who assumes the F2 spot between the dot and the the wall waiting to pounce on a SS outlet pass.  The kid that took the shot is now your F3. Instead of staying above the C curl or at the very least controlling the center of the ice, they bust their butt to try to turn the puck over from the D man carrying the puck.  That is not really their job though and the other team pushes the puck behind him and ends up with a 4 on 2 going the other way. 

What I am saying is that top physical exertion is NOT always the best judge of effort.  A big part of effort is being mindful of being a team player and pushing the play toward your teammate.  Early in the season, even this season this season for me, players that will eventually become your best backcheckers and forecheckers look like they arent playing hard at all because they cant process what is happening quick enough.  You would be surprised how hard it is to teach some kids something so simple as getting your F3 to stay above the center in the offensive end.

Even if you have a pretty good idea of what your player's team is trying to do, coaches will often change strategy depending on the game.  From the examples above...Say you're down a goal in the third, a team might not give their F3 backchecker any defensive responsibility and have them float just above the dzone waiting to get an advantage in a counter-attack.  That player looks like a slacker.

OR

Despite your best efforts, you may keep getting beat back to your net.  You may tell F1 to back off and not push the puck but instead stay above the puck to keep the opposing team from generating speed early.  It looks like they aren't playing hard but they are serving a purpose.

All that said, sometimes it can be really hard to tell what is supposed to be happening.  And by no means am I saying the above should be happening on your teams.

I dont know if there would a difference between HS and travel.  Every team is different.  However, I think every team should outline their objectives up front.  

I hope this was helpful.

 

[twoboys]

Coaching JV has got to be difficult.  Sort of like middle school.  There can be a huge difference in talent and size.  I think this would be even worse if the JV or middle school team doesn't have cuts.  

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

17 minutes ago, twoboys said:

Coaching JV has got to be difficult.  Sort of like middle school.  There can be a huge difference in talent and size.  I think this would be even worse if the JV or middle school team doesn't have cuts.  

How many JV teams do have cuts?? I imagine not many.

[BeaverFalls]

I can’t believe we are having this discussion about JV hockey.  It’s truly meaningless. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by BeaverFalls

[Jack Handey]

yeah but it's kind of important for people especially those with upcoming 6th graders to know two things.

1. properly structured, MS & JV are prep for varsity.

2. PIHL hockey is not house/rec hockey and winning starts to matter.  

[rkowallis]

4 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

yeah but it's kind of important for people especially those with upcoming 6th graders to know two things.

1. properly structured, MS & JV are prep for varsity.

2. PIHL hockey is not house/rec hockey and winning starts to matter.  

Although there is a lot of focus on this board about some very unfortunate incidents, there is still a lot to appreciate about HS hockey in the area.
 

Regarding point #1- you’re absolutely correct. Successful programs have a structure in place that develops players and players within their systems….

There are many excellent coaches, players and teams. This is my first year with Varsity A level program so Im just getting familiar but I spent quite a few years at the AAA level so I am very familiar with the systems and coaches at AAA.
NA is obviously a big hockey program but they run pretty simple systems. I imagine they draw a lot of players from PAHL’s NP program. Its been a few years but my recollection is that those NP teams live and die by that high pressure 2-1-2 stack.  NA on the other hand runs a 1-2-2 but they are masters at it. They make you play on 1/2 the ice and you feel like there is nothing you can do about it because their F1 takes all D to D movement and the 4 behind F1 are so good at defending, even baiting anything even to the middle lane much less the weakside lane. I saw them run a hybrid umbrella/overload PP for years that you knew what what was coming and you still couldnt stop it (puck below endline to player at hashes on the wall to the point then to the WS and then the player on the wall cuts into the middle behind the shifting PK for a shot or if the D moves up to cover the cutter, they hit the backdoor with the low guy just sitting there. Again, simple but masters.  

The Peters program is a different story. That team is always different. The first game you play them everything will be a 2-1-2 spread. They will be extremely active down low and your D will just take a beating. The next game they will let you make the first pass and then just flood the SS outside lane daring you to try to come off the wall. If you have any kind of success against that, the next game you’ll see a 1-3-1 trap and so on. Also, its really hard to win at Peters because they are masters at matching lines and catching you in vulnerable spots. Its insane how good they are at it.

Im not sure they do it now but for a few years SV ran this weird 1-1-3 NZ thing. I studied it on film and still couldnt get a real good grasp of it but they were good at it. They had a kid that graduated a couple years ago at the front of that thing that was so damn smart. One of the best defensive Fs I have seen in my time coaching at any level.

Anyway, my point is there is great hockey being played ‘round these parts. Im still learning at A watching our varsity team play but there are good players and teams at A too. Just maybe not the depth.  Hopefully we can keep growing this game. 

I have seen a number of AA games this year but I dont know those teams well. What is obvious at AA is there are a few excellent goaltenders. I mean really good.
 

Regarding point #2- at varsity, you’re damn right it does. Many of these kids take a lot of pride in playing for their school.

[BeaverFalls]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:57 PM, Jack Handey said:

yeah but it's kind of important for people especially those with upcoming 6th graders to know two things.

1. properly structured, MS & JV are prep for varsity.

2. PIHL hockey is not house/rec hockey and winning starts to matter.  

PIHL is the definition of rec hockey. It’s a club sport league that is not acknowledged by their host schools with co-op teams and made up classifications. This isn’t Minnesota.  
 

I have no idea what the OP means by “running lines”.

Edited February 21, 2022 by BeaverFalls

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, BeaverFalls said:

PIHL is the definition of rec hockey. It’s a club sport league that is not acknowledged by their host schools with co-op teams and made up classifications. This isn’t Minnesota.  
 

I have no idea what the OP means by “running lines”.

Wow, so negative once again!  It's the best we have.  Move to Minnesota if you are not happy with what we have.  I see a lot of kids playing as hard as they can in this club sport and their championship means as much to them as the one that is won in Minnesota.

[BeaverFalls]

12 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow, so negative once again!  It's the best we have.  Move to Minnesota if you are not happy with what we have.  I see a lot of kids playing as hard as they can in this club sport and their championship means as much to them as the one that is won in Minnesota.

I’m not being negative. Just responding to the comment that “this is a serious game!” *cue slapshot forfeit victory*

Its totally fine for what we have in the area. People just try to make far too much out of it and turn it into win or die hockey. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by BeaverFalls

[Jack Handey]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:24 AM, BeaverFalls said:

I have no idea what the OP means by “running lines”.

I took it as rolling lines.

I'll caveat and qualify my original opinion: in PIHL MS and JV, winning starts to matter, based on my observations of my school district's teams and competing school districts' teams over the last decade as both a PIHL coach and PIHL parent. 

I guess my school has never played your school but school hockey is taken very seriously where I'm from.

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, Jack Handey said:

I took it as rolling lines.

I'll caveat and qualify my original opinion: in PIHL MS and JV, winning starts to matter, based on my observations of my school district's teams and competing school districts' teams over the last decade as both a PIHL coach and PIHL parent. 

I guess my school has never played your school but school hockey is taken very seriously where I'm from.

Why bother if you are not going to take it serious?  Sports by nature are competitive.  I have never played any sport that I didn't try to be my best.

[carroll81]

8 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

I took it as rolling lines.

I'll caveat and qualify my original opinion: in PIHL MS and JV, winning starts to matter, based on my observations of my school district's teams and competing school districts' teams over the last decade as both a PIHL coach and PIHL parent. 

I guess my school has never played your school but school hockey is taken very seriously where I'm from.

Curious, are there playoffs for JV and MS in the West?  What about other (PIAA) sports?

In the East, there are JV and MS playoffs in hockey, though they call them "Showcases".  No other scholastic sport has playoffs at any level other than Varsity.

[Jack Handey]

43 minutes ago, carroll81 said:

Curious, are there playoffs for JV and MS in the West?

Yes, MS and JV have an end of season single-elimination tournament that is regarded as a season ending playoff. 

Yes, there is a playoff system in other sports.  Most schools in Southwest PA roll up into a league called WPIAL (https://www.wpial.org/).  There are WPIAL playoffs which then feed into PIAA district playoffs.

[carroll81]

2 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

Yes, MS and JV have an end of season single-elimination tournament that is regarded as a season ending playoff. 

Yes, there is a playoff system in other sports.  Most schools in Southwest PA roll up into a league called WPIAL (https://www.wpial.org/).  There are WPIAL playoffs which then feed into PIAA district playoffs.

Jack, does WPIAL have JV and/or MS playoffs?  It doesn't look like it from the website.  There is no JV playoffs in District 1 (Central, ChesMont, PAC10).  Hockey seems to be the outlier.

[Jack Handey]

I'm not aware of any WPIAL playoffs for JV or MS.  I am admittedly a few years removed from that age, though.

[aaaahockey]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:25 PM, BeaverFalls said:

I can’t believe we are having this discussion about JV hockey.  It’s truly meaningless. 

We literally spill ink on this board about elite mites.  I'm pretty sure JV hockey is more meaningful than that at a minimum. 

[hockey57410]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:25 PM, BeaverFalls said:

I can’t believe we are having this discussion about JV hockey.  It’s truly meaningless. 

Don't tell that to the Montour Hockey board!  We saw how that ended for them!

[hockeyisgreat]

23 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

I'm not aware of any WPIAL playoffs for JV or MS.  I am admittedly a few years removed from that age, though.

I'm pretty sure you are right but not positive.  Seems that they may have Jr High wrestling tournaments but I'm not sure if they are sanctioned by the WPIAL or just teams getting together for an end of year tourney. 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 hour ago, hockey57410 said:

Don't tell that to the Montour Hockey board!  We saw how that ended for them!

It ended great for the Montour organization. Now they have a coach that actually coaches all of the kids. 

[HSFBLJ]

My original comment holds true, practice develops players.  Not games.

This is all program dependent.  Take a large AAA school like NA.  You can work your ass of but if you don't have the talent you are not going to play JV.  They have a full roster of kids that put in the effort and are talented.  If you play at a single A school effort may very well get you some ice time.  For the most part I'm not a fan of effort, everyone should be putting forth the effort to play the game.