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Problems during the “battle of the suck”


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I would like to re-emphasize a point that has been made elsewhere here.  It really isn't about having dad coaches or not. It's more about how the dad coaches coach. If the coach only or over-focuses on their own kid (lines, play time, special teams, skill development) then it is a problem.  If they are able to see the whole team and develop them, it isn't. There are great dad coaches and terrible dad coaches out there.  There are great non-dad coaches and terrible non-dad coaches out there.  Also, AAA seems hit or miss on which ones have parent coaches and which ones don't (including PPE), not dissimilar to PAHL AA - so much so I'm not even sure it should be a part of the overall AAA conversation. 

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2 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

How long until there is a "West" division in the Atlantic Hockey Federation? https://atlantichockeyfederation.com

Lots and lots of teams. There are 21 teams in 12U AA just as an example.

PAHL AA can be pretty good hockey, but the problem is that the number of teams are limited so you end up playing the same 6-7 teams with roughly the same players year after year after year. It can feel like you're in some type of echo chamber. If you're in an A division there is so much more movement and you end up playing different teams and different clubs each year.

I just don't think there's any possible chance that Black Bear isn't already planning this. It's going to further weaken PAHL. I would guess the four organizations at Black Bear owned rinks would be the first to go. No chance Black Bear is going to leave this money on the table.

Anything appealing about AHF over PAHL?

Its only matter of time until AHF is in Pittsburgh and personally I see it as a good thing. Strong rumors that BB is looking at buying up a couple more rinks in Ohio and Buffalo area, so I could absolutely see an AHF West division happening. Maybe it will force PAHL to restructure a bit, or teams could probably play in both and get a nice variety of opponents and a hefty schedule. 

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38 minutes ago, forbin said:

Its only matter of time until AHF is in Pittsburgh and personally I see it as a good thing. Strong rumors that BB is looking at buying up a couple more rinks in Ohio and Buffalo area, so I could absolutely see an AHF West division happening. Maybe it will force PAHL to restructure a bit, or teams could probably play in both and get a nice variety of opponents and a hefty schedule. 

AHF "full season clubs" for squirt, peewee, bantam, and midget play a 40 game schedule. 28 home/away plus 12 showcase games. That's a lot of division games.

AHF "half season clubs" play a 16 game schedule. 8 home/away plus 8 showcase games.

Looks like "half season" clubs can remain in their normal league. Could be an interesting supplemental league while still letting PAHL teams remain. I like that option for AA teams that wan't extra games against other AA teams.

Mid season all star games are also kind of interesting. Also the periods are longer compared to PAHL at just about every age level. No ties either. They are defiantly thinking outside the box a little.

But they do advertise "full ice AAA mites" 😆

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/ahf-2022-2023/

 

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10 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

AHF "full season clubs" for squirt, peewee, bantam, and midget play a 40 game schedule. 28 home/away plus 12 showcase games. That's a lot of division games.

AHF "half season clubs" play a 16 game schedule. 8 home/away plus 8 showcase games.

Looks like "half season" clubs can remain in their normal league. Could be an interesting supplemental league while still letting PAHL teams remain. I like that option for AA teams that wan't extra games against other AA teams.

Mid season all star games are also kind of interesting. They are defiantly thinking outside the box a little.

But they do advertise "full ice AAA mites" 😆

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/ahf-2022-2023/

 

the half season sounds like it could work in PAHL’s favor. AA teams cut down tournament costs, travel etc. maybe develop rivalries with teams across the state or Ohio line. In theory it looks like a good thing. Time will tell how it’s executed. 

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3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

How long until there is a "West" division in the Atlantic Hockey Federation? https://atlantichockeyfederation.com

Lots and lots of teams. There are 21 teams in 12U AA just as an example.

PAHL AA can be pretty good hockey, but the problem is that the number of teams are limited so you end up playing the same 6-7 teams with roughly the same players year after year after year. It can feel like you're in some type of echo chamber. If you're in an A division there is so much more movement and you end up playing different teams and different clubs each year.

I just don't think there's any possible chance that Black Bear isn't already planning this. It's going to further weaken PAHL. I would guess the four organizations at Black Bear owned rinks would be the first to go. No chance Black Bear is going to leave this money on the table.

Anything appealing about AHF over PAHL?

Not appealing to me.  Just more travel/money to play the exact same caliber of competition. 

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3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Isn't it true that you develop more in practice than you ever would in a game?  Doesn't practicing against better level kids every day make you better?  If you are really committed shouldn't you be able to move up the lineup to get some quality minutes? When a kid is ultra competitive they will work to get better or decide it isn't worth it. No in between!

This is what all the FAKE AAA teams sell.  I have heard it for years yet I would say I typically see the opposite.  Usually the fake AAA teams have players playing above their level dumping and chasing, rimming pucks and firing pucks off the glass and out.  The kids don't develop well and become puck chuckers not play makers.  That is what they sell, yet I have seen almost as many or more kids move up to AAA levels from AA while a lot of the kids on the wanna be AAA (40 or above) end up getting cut, play AA,  and are below average there.

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44 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

AHF "full season clubs" for squirt, peewee, bantam, and midget play a 40 game schedule. 28 home/away plus 12 showcase games. That's a lot of division games.

AHF "half season clubs" play a 16 game schedule. 8 home/away plus 8 showcase games.

Looks like "half season" clubs can remain in their normal league. Could be an interesting supplemental league while still letting PAHL teams remain. I like that option for AA teams that wan't extra games against other AA teams.

Mid season all star games are also kind of interesting. Also the periods are longer compared to PAHL at just about every age level. No ties either. They are defiantly thinking outside the box a little.

But they do advertise "full ice AAA mites" 😆

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/ahf-2022-2023/

 

It's just another money grab but by black bear to make them more money and will and a lot more travel/expense.  They are in it to pad their pockets.  

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6 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

AHF "full season clubs" for squirt, peewee, bantam, and midget play a 40 game schedule. 28 home/away plus 12 showcase games. That's a lot of division games.

AHF "half season clubs" play a 16 game schedule. 8 home/away plus 8 showcase games.

Looks like "half season" clubs can remain in their normal league. Could be an interesting supplemental league while still letting PAHL teams remain. I like that option for AA teams that wan't extra games against other AA teams.

Mid season all star games are also kind of interesting. Also the periods are longer compared to PAHL at just about every age level. No ties either. They are defiantly thinking outside the box a little.

But they do advertise "full ice AAA mites" 😆

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/ahf-2022-2023/

 

This is basically a rebrand of the ejehl which was pretty low quality hockey. 

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On 4/20/2022 at 1:10 PM, howard1 said:

Meanwhile numbers at Esmark and Vengeance U18 where 40+

vengeancehad 15 forwards 10d and 11 goalies.   too they would cut 3f 4d and 9goalies.  Honestly its a good turnout goalie wise. but skater wise I would call that slim pickings. And thats 04 and 05 BY.  

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16 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

It's just another money grab but by black bear to make them more money and will and a lot more travel/expense.  They are in it to pad their pockets.  

Of course it's them trying to make more money! It's a business.

But you still have a good point, PAHL operates as a non-profit, Black Bear obviously does not.

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10 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Of course it's them trying to make more money! It's a business.

But you still have a good point, PAHL operates as a non-profit, Black Bear obviously does not.

All I have seen black bear do is come into town and buy as many rinks as they can to create a monopoly.  They seem to raise the cost of ice time as soon as they buy the rinks.   Once they control most of the ice rinks in the Pittsburgh market they will have a monopoly on ice time/rinks and continue to name there price.  That is never good for the consumer.  Most of what they do does not seem good for the sport including a league that requires more travel for a similar level of competition.   They seem a lot like our local mlb baseball teams owner.  Squeeze as much profit out of the consumer as possible.  Good business but not good for the sport locally as high costs pushes athletes out of the sport.

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17 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

This is what all the FAKE AAA teams sell.  I have heard it for years yet I would say I typically see the opposite.  Usually the fake AAA teams have players playing above their level dumping and chasing, rimming pucks and firing pucks off the glass and out.  The kids don't develop well and become puck chuckers not play makers.  That is what they sell, yet I have seen almost as many or more kids move up to AAA levels from AA while a lot of the kids on the wanna be AAA (40 or above) end up getting cut, play AA,  and are below average there.

At what point do we stop the argument that practice makes them better and they don't need games.  By U16/U18 they need to start focusing more on their game skills.  Sure practice is important to install new systems or work on special teams, but its not mites or squirts or pee-wees!  What is the point of always saying "practice, practice" when you never put it to use in a game situation.

And almost every PAHL team practice I've watched at rinks, the teams drills are not useful, there are always drill destroying kids.  

but it's funny that all these B, A, AA, AAA kids will all end up in beer league.  Maybe a handful at some low level Jr. hockey.

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And yet the NHL has a three week training camp. Practices on off days and morning skates. But hey they are only the best players in the world so they do not need to practice that much. It's about 2.5 practices per game. But our young amateurs can really grow with the 1:1 ratio.

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And another group - NCAA's have 4 practices a week (with off weeks and pre season practices about 2.5:1 ratio) but they are also horrible a record of developing players. Need to go to the 1.5:1 ratio since it is working so well with the WPA kids.

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2 hours ago, Denis Lemiuex said:
2 hours ago, Denis Lemiuex said:

And another group - NCAA's have 4 practices a week (with off weeks and pre season practices about 2.5:1 ratio) but they are also horrible a record of developing players. Need to go to the 1.5:1 ratio since it is working so well with the WPA kids.

 

Perfect. They'll be ready for beer league.

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2 hours ago, Saucey said:

Perfect. They'll be ready for beer league.

Did you ever hear of growth vs fixed mindset? Being the best that you can be at whatever you are doing at that particular time?

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So looking at all of this I've come to the conclusion that anything over PAHL Hockey is just a money grab!  All kids should play PAHL and be happy because they are going to wind up in the Beer League at 25.  That's if they even still want to play hockey!

Oh and the rinks shouldn't provide any extra programming or leagues because they only want to make money!  A novel concept in our society!  

Hockey00  Obviously most of the people on this board have never heard of growth vs fixed mindset!  They equate growth with a money grab by unscrupulous people who want to profit from you and your kids desire to improve and be the best they can be.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Hockey00 said:

Did you ever hear of growth vs fixed mindset? Being the best that you can be at whatever you are doing at that particular time?

Carol Dweck. Tremendous book. Saw Cale Maker give it a shoutout during an interview his rookie season.

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So looking at all of this I've come to the conclusion that anything over PAHL Hockey is just a money grab!  All kids should play PAHL and be happy because they are going to wind up in the Beer League at 25.  That's if they even still want to play hockey!

Oh and the rinks shouldn't provide any extra programming or leagues because they only want to make money!  A novel concept in our society!  

Hockey00  Obviously most of the people on this board have never heard of growth vs fixed mindset!  They equate growth with a money grab by unscrupulous people who want to profit from you and your kids desire to improve and be the best they can be.

I agree with you here. It is kind of crazy the amount of negativity on this board. Everyone is such a downer but they justify it because they've been around the block and think they have some special level of insight. They don't. Fortunately in real life it's fairly easy to avoid this type of negativity. It's contagious. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So looking at all of this I've come to the conclusion that anything over PAHL Hockey is just a money grab!  All kids should play PAHL and be happy because they are going to wind up in the Beer League at 25.  That's if they even still want to play hockey!

 

 

I’m not 100% sure that’s the complete message in this thread. You may want to head over to the junior hockey thread with the charts for some perspective. Go look over the few western pa kids currently playing real junior hockey from for 00-04 birth year. These kids mainly come from PPE with the odd esmark kid here and there. 

is your kid in the 1% ? If not, yes if they continue to play until they age out they will end up in beer league like everyone else. You have a better chance hitting the power ball vs your kid making it to ncaa d1 hockey. let’s just say your kid is that talented. Has the skills to get to the ncaa d1 level. Do you have the connections ? The money ?  Can your kid handle the mental part of playing in a league like the ushl ? Moving away their junior or senior year to live with a family in the middle of North Dakota ? The injuries ? That’s a lot for a 16-18 year old kid to handle - process. There is so much that goes into “making it” beyond having the ability, That’s why very few do. There are handful of kids at every birth year in western pa that have the talent but dont have the connections, money etc. 

a close friend of mine who worked in the OHL for 2 years once told me this - 75% of these guys playing in the “O” have the talent to make it to the NHL but they won’t because their families don’t have the lineage or connections. 
 

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Danner your words above prove my point 100% . You are telling me it is a waste of time and money to play anywhere but PAHL because my kid has a 1% chance of making it.  Until he gives up I will give him every chance I can. I would never tell a kid they can't do it!  The problem I have is people like you who are so negative (realistic) and maybe bitter that yours wasn't in the 1% after  you paid all that money that you tell everyone that they are wasting their time. I saw all the charts and understand the long odds. Does that mean just give up and play PAHL?  What are you trying to say? 

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2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Danner your words above prove my point 100% . You are telling me it is a waste of time and money to play anywhere but PAHL because my kid has a 1% chance of making it.  Until he gives up I will give him every chance I can. I would never tell a kid they can't do it!  The problem I have is people like you who are so negative (realistic) and maybe bitter that yours wasn't in the 1% after  you paid all that money that you tell everyone that they are wasting their time. I saw all the charts and understand the long odds. Does that mean just give up and play PAHL?  What are you trying to say? 

He is just trying to give you some realistic insight.  I would never tell a kid not to try but I sadly see parents chasing an "A" wasting money and have no idea where it will end.  Not saying don't try but be smart about it.  Is it what the kid really wants?  Are they really willing to put in the time and effort?  It is not just time at the rinks, it is additional workouts, eating properly, .....  When you are putting up 4 or more points a game at AA then go for it.  Even most of the legit AAA players average less than 2 pts per game at the AA and AAA Varsity highschool level.

Danner  is just trying to give some insight I believe.  There is nothing wrong playing with the fake AAA teams (teams that claim to be AAA but are not in the top 40).  Just take into account the money you may be wasting traveling all over to play PAHL talent and it will not take you to the next level most likely.

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