THF and AHF

[Duster19]

Legitimate AAA, yes.  The only true and consistently legitimate AAA is PPE across all of the birth years.  Depending on which birth year, maybe esmark or vengeance.  The rest are just posers and money grabbers.

For 16U (2007 by) in western PA:

PPE - AAA, Esmark - AAA/AA, Vengenace - AA, preds - AA/A Major and Icemen - AA/ A Major/ A Minor

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aaaahockey]

33 minutes ago, Duster19 said:

Legitimate AAA, yes.  The only true and consistently legitimate AAA is PPE across all of the birth years.  Depending on which birth year, maybe esmark or vengeance.  The rest are just posers and money grabbers.

For 16U (2007 by) in western PA:

PPE - AAA, Esmark - AAA/AA, Vengenace - AA, preds - AA/A Major and Icemen - AA/ A Major/ A Minor

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't think PPE are money grabbers you live in a different reality.  Regardless of what they are ranked, their entire model is built around money grabbing. 

[RJUSHL]

44 minutes ago, Duster19 said:

PPE - AAA, Esmark - AAA/AA, Vengenace - AA, preds - AA/A Major and Icemen - AA/ A Major/ A Minor

I started a thread on this at the beginning of last season. More often than not Esmark has been passed up by Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA according to the rankings. That will probably accelerate as they continue to play out of PIA.

And in terms of what constitutes a legit AAA team, I think it's more helpful to look at the rankings of recent teams that have won Tier II national championships. Where were they ranked? SCIR 16U won a Tier 2 national championship as the 178th ranked 16U team in the country. Yes that's low, but you have to be a ridiculously good AA team, borderline AAA team to win a Tier 2 national championship.

And there are also countless examples of teams ranked in the 75 range that do very well at Tier 1 nationals. 

So for all the AAA gatekeepers that say you have to be a top 40 team to consider yourself AAA, you're just wrong. And it's kind of gross how you take pride in delegitimizing teams. (Not speaking to this particular comment, just in general.)

Edited September 7, 2023 by RJUSHL

[hockeyisgreat]

2 hours ago, Duster19 said:

Legitimate AAA, yes.  The only true and consistently legitimate AAA is PPE across all of the birth years.  Depending on which birth year, maybe esmark or vengeance.  The rest are just posers and money grabbers.

For 16U (2007 by) in western PA:

PPE - AAA, Esmark - AAA/AA, Vengenace - AA, preds - AA/A Major and Icemen - AA/ A Major/ A Minor

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess we don't need My Hockey Rankings!  We will just take your word for it!  Thanks for the update!  as long as there is a market (people willing to pay and not complain)  there will be other AAA teams across the country!

[stickboy]

And as long as Esmark is around there will not be another Tier 1 program in Pittsburgh that will jump them as the No. 2 in the area.  Not even a new one in the South Hills!  

[RJUSHL]

36 minutes ago, stickboy said:

And as long as Esmark is around there will not be another Tier 1 program in Pittsburgh that will jump them as the No. 2 in the area.  Not even a new one in the South Hills!  

You sure about that?

Esmark couldn't even put together a 14U team this season.

Just to remind you about where things finished last season...

16U
#14 PPE
#20 SHAHA
#37 Esmark
#112 Preds

15U
#8 PPE
#36 Esmark
#73 SHAHA
#88 Vengeance
#95 Icemen
#103 Preds
 

14U
#3 PPE
#10 Vengeance
#58 SHAHA
#91 Preds
#113 Esmark

13U
#9 PPE
#41 Vengeance
#77 Preds
#82 Esmark
#93 SHAHA
 

It's not 2015 anymore. Things change.

[stickboy]

And it’s not last year either!  The SHAHA 16U(now 18u) and 15U(now 16U) don’t even exist at Tier 1 anymore.  And at 14U(now 15U) Ven, Esmark, and SHAHA will duke it out since 08  Ven imploded.

Like I’ve said before, it’s hard to get people to trust a new thing when it matters (midgets).  Look at how many AAA midget players from Pittsburgh were playing out of town at Barons, Blue Jackets, etc. last season as opposed to playing for SHAHA, Preds, and Ven. They want to get in somewhere that they think is relevant in hopes of advancement, and they know it’s definitely not happening in the third tier of Pittsburgh AAA. 
 

 

 

[Happy Hockey Fan]

48 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

You sure about that?

Esmark couldn't even put together a 14U team this season.

Just to remind you about where things finished last season...

16U
#14 PPE
#20 SHAHA
#37 Esmark
#112 Preds

15U
#8 PPE
#36 Esmark
#73 SHAHA
#88 Vengeance
#95 Icemen
#103 Preds
 

14U
#3 PPE
#10 Vengeance
#58 SHAHA
#91 Preds
#113 Esmark

13U
#9 PPE
#41 Vengeance
#77 Preds
#82 Esmark
#93 SHAHA
 

It's not 2015 anymore. Things change.

What were the U18 rankings? 
 

I believe that the SHAHA teams were a one and done type of high ranking team. They did a great job of recruiting for a couple teams. But it doesn’t look like they are going to be consistently ranked higher than Esmark. Their  U16 team scattered and I don’t see them putting together teams that good consistently. 
 

I think Esmark remains the higher ranked teams at least at the U18 and U16 levels. 

[RJUSHL]

1 hour ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

What were the U18 rankings? 

Last season at 18U Esmark was second in the region behind PPE. I don't think 18U is a good barometer because the best players in the region have already moved away to prep or juniors by that time. 18U AAA is not the best path to juniors or D1, and the best players are gone from Pittsburgh at this point.

My point isn't that Esmark is all of a sudden irrelevant. My point is that they are losing some relevancy. They are no longer the undisputed #2 Tier 1 program in the region.

Edited September 7, 2023 by RJUSHL

[Happy Hockey Fan]

2 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Last season at 18U Esmark was second in the region behind PPE. I don't think 18U is a good barometer because the best players in the region have already moved away to prep or juniors by that time. 18U AAA is not the best path to juniors or D1, and the best players are gone from Pittsburgh at this point.

My point isn't that Esmark is all of a sudden irrelevant. My point is that they are losing some relevancy. They are no longer the undisputed #2 Tier 1 program in the region.

Esmark 18U has sent more kids to D1 than any other AAA program besides the Pens. That is a fact. And they will probably be the team that send the second most kids to D1 from the area in the future too. 
 

who in your opinion is the the number 2 local team? I know of not one other team that has sent kids to D1 or even free to play juniors. 
 

and you say that AAA U18 isn’t the pathway to free juniors or D1. Why did the kid from SHAHA move to another organization to play for a U18 AAA team?

And if you really want to know what the best pathway to D1 or free juniors is, I’ll tell you now. First the kid has to be pretty good. But that isn’t enough. It has everything to do with the amount of money and connections that your family has. I have seen kids move on to juniors programs with less talent and skill than others. But their parents have more money and connections. I could name names, but that isn’t appropriate here. 
 

When I see kids from SHAHA, Vengeance or maybe Preds advance a kid to D1. Then maybe there will be a new number 2. Until then, Esmark it is. 

[RJUSHL]

13 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

When I see kids from SHAHA, Vengeance or maybe Preds advance a kid to D1. Then maybe there will be a new number 2. Until then, Esmark it is. 

Once again, it's not 2015 anymore. Things are changing. When the supposed #2 Tier 1 program in the area can't put together a bantam major team, there are some serious underlying issues. Maybe they'll correct course and get back to where they were, or maybe they'll continue to fade.

BTW... the money/connections angle is tiresome. Yes money and connections are advantageous in every single sphere of life, but if a kid is good enough, they will be found. Teams and scouts are trying to build the best possible team. Their jobs are on the line. There are kids at the USNTDP right now who played AA bantam hockey. If you're good enough, they will find you. The money/connections angle is just an excuse that makes people feel better. People like to self-soothe instead of telling themselves the hard truth. That's fine.

Edited September 7, 2023 by RJUSHL

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Once again, it's not 2015 anymore. Things are changing. When the supposed #2 Tier 1 program in the area can't put together a bantam major team, there are some serious underlying issues. Maybe they'll correct course and get back to where they were, or maybe they'll continue to fade.

BTW... the money/connections angle is tiresome. Yes money and connections are advantageous in every single sphere of life, but if a kid is good enough, they will be found. Teams and scouts are trying to build the best possible team. Their jobs are on the line. There are kids at the USNTDP right now who played AA bantam hockey. If you're good enough, they will find you. The money/connections angle is just an excuse that makes people feel better. People like to self-soothe instead of telling themselves the hard truth. That's fine.

The money and connections thing is fact. A kid I coached made an NAHL team last year. Had one point on the year. A kid I have watched play and was definitely better than the NAHL kid, way better, didn’t make an NAHL team. One kids parents are rich, others not. Which one do you think was in the NAHL last year? After this season is over, we shall see which one of these two kids advances. My bet is on the kid not in the NAHL. He is in another junior league that is comparable to the NAHL. 

And you have seen it in the past. Kids making Pens roster because who their parents are. Even on current roster there is someone that is only there because of who their parents are and you know it. 
 

And yes, money and connections also help in everyday life, but I think it is even more pronounced in youth amateur hockey. 
 

I still think Esmark is the number 2 program, not even close really based on what I said in previous posts about them being the only team to advance kids to D1 besides Pens. And I don’t think your bantam team example is much of an indicator for how good of a program Esmark is. 
 

Time will tell I guess. 

[Saucey]

Since when did Esmark ever field good teams at any level other than 16u or 18u? This is a silly argument. I think people are more willing to let their kids play out of PIA when they don't have to drive them there.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

1 minute ago, Saucey said:

Since when did Esmark ever field good teams at any level other than 16u or 18u? This is a silly argument. I think people are more willing to let their kids play out of PIA when they don't have to drive them there.

what other local AAA organizations have CONSISTENTLY produced quality teams at the younger levels? Besides Pens. 
I’ll answer for you, NONE. So with their consistency at the U18 and U16 levels qualify Esmark as the number 2 AAA organization in the area. 
 

I know you disagree with me, but that is my opinion. I have presented nothing but facts. Like they produce more D1 players, and no other local org has produced consistently good teams at ANY level. 

 

[Carl Racki]

14 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

I started a thread on this at the beginning of last season. More often than not Esmark has been passed up by Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA according to the rankings. That will probably accelerate as they continue to play out of PIA.

And in terms of what constitutes a legit AAA team, I think it's more helpful to look at the rankings of recent teams that have won Tier II national championships. Where were they ranked? SCIR 16U won a Tier 2 national championship as the 178th ranked 16U team in the country. Yes that's low, but you have to be a ridiculously good AA team, borderline AAA team to win a Tier 2 national championship.

And there are also countless examples of teams ranked in the 75 range that do very well at Tier 1 nationals. 

So for all the AAA gatekeepers that say you have to be a top 40 team to consider yourself AAA, you're just wrong. And it's kind of gross how you take pride in delegitimizing teams. (Not speaking to this particular comment, just in general.)

Keep drinking the Koolaide.  Teams in the 70's have now where near the depth of teams in the top 10-20.  They may have a line or 7-8 AAA players but not a fulll roster.  Drink up my friend!

[nemesis8679]

Pens are also pulling from a much wider area. 

[RJUSHL]

8 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Keep drinking the Koolaide.  Teams in the 70's have now where near the depth of teams in the top 10-20.  They may have a line or 7-8 AAA players but not a fulll roster.  Drink up my friend!

You're absolutely right. Only three local organizations had teams in the top 20 last year; PPE, SHAHA, and Vengeance.

Esmark is a quality option, but they've slipped a bit. The argument isn't about whether they've slipped or not, it's about how much they've slipped. Some think they've slipped a lot. Others think it's just been a little.

Not sure what Kool-Aid you think I'm drinking. I'm not the one singing the praises of any one particular organization. I'm just pointing out the changing landscape. Things are never static.

[Saucey]

15 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

 

I know you disagree with me, but that is my opinion. I have presented nothing but facts. Like they produce more D1 players, and no other local org has produced consistently good teams at ANY level. 

 

I actually don't care at all and this is the only comment that I made. Talking about bad teams at the younger levels.... it's always been that way, just didn't think that point added much to the discussion.

[dazedandconfused]

https://atlantichockeyfederation.com/12u-mcdavid/win-loss-ratio/

3.5 hour drive for league games for 12U - B

MD Black Bears - ironically the club founded/owned by Gunty

Senseless

Edited September 10, 2023 by dazedandconfused