PAHL Standings

[ice is cold]

1 hour ago, Carl Racki said:

The problem is stats for PIHL, AHF, and other leagues/tournaments are so far off all the time.  Shot stats are wrong, goals , assists points, shg ppg, ,.....  Kids get mad, parents get mad, leagues here about it.  Until they actually make a real attempt to get them correct, why bother.  PIHL parents constantly complain.

Parents complain. Does not matter what league they are in. 

[Rewster]

16 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

PAHL Meeting on January 16th would be a good time to bring the issue of Stats up.  If enough Associations question them maybe we can find out why they choose not to let the public have access.  Or maybe someone from the PAHL board who sees this message board could respond to why the PAHL chooses not to show individual and team stats.

Just for comparison purposes. The CSDHL has 14 teams total; 10 of which are top-50 in the nation (5 are top-10). They are obvious about promoting their league and members in such a way that leaves no doubt that the CSDHL is the #1 Tier 2 AA Developmental league are in the USA. You can easily find the league teams (it’s literally in their MHR names), the league/team website, teams/organizations within their website…and access everything applicable from an outsider’s perspective.

The CSDHL only has 14 members, but outranks the other 188 “Independent” teams (as if they were their own mega-league) that are represented by any statistical measure.
The CSDHL has the most Top-50 (10), most Top-10 (5), even all 3 of the Top-3 teams are in their league.
The beautiful thing about is that they promote attention. They want their players to get promoted to higher levels. That’s how they get high-end players. They don’t fear getting poached by “Independent” teams. They can show hard data that suggests that their players are better off being in their league and on their member teams.

 

Just to compare the PAHL, there are 8 member teams in the U18 AA level. 4 of which are top-50. Currently, ONE team (Armstrong Arrows) is Top 6 in the national rankings—this takes into account all of the 243 Tier 2 teams.

Out of the legitimate AA leagues in the country (I don’t include AHF, as it is a 31-“member” cluster of (you-know-what) independent clubs that are trying to dress up as a league); the PAHL is ranked THIRD—just behind the CSDHL and the 9 team Minnesota Tier 2 AA league that represent the most top-50 teams in the national rankings. That is honestly really great company to be included with. We have Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey’s 18 U AA hockey league in the same sentence as Minnesota’s and the best AA league that Michigan/Chicago provide. They all promote their organizations and players. They don’t hide them.

My overall point is that the PAHL is doing itself and players a major disservice by not making their players’ statistical information readily accessible and promoted, in my opinion. It would only enrich their player development and attract the best AA players to want to come and play for a team/league that is getting attention. Show that the PAHL produces T2 National Champions and their players go on to bigger things. 

.Sorry for the lack of brevity. Hockeyisgreat made me think that someone high in the PAHL might see this thread and re-consider their restricted access approach; and move toward a promoting their players (at least for the U18 AA level, and even U16 AA level)

[hockeyisgreat]

Rewster, great job!  According to some on here Western Pa hockey is awful!  The PAHL's lack of promotion does nothing to change that image.  They need to use the tools they already have to promote the league particularly at the U18AA and U16AA levels.  I have to believe that officers within the organizations in PAHL look at this website.  Would sure be nice to get this on their meeting agenda. Open up the stats and recognize your top players PAHL. Quit sticking your head in the sand and trying to please everyone!  If PAHL did more for 18U and 16U AA players maybe you wouldn't see so many Faux AAA teams! Just a thought!

[sarampage]

Yes....so true.  My son has been fortunate to play on a top 20 18U AA and top 25 16U AA team over the last few years, with one going to Nationals.  At the time, we had at least 2 other teams in our division ranked in the top 10-30 as well  I remember looking at other districts and thought...outside of Central States and maybe Michigan, we have it so tough....you see the same teams/organizations in other districts going to Nationals practically every year because they have no competition...

[James Gatz]

This is a good discussion with some interesting points.  From my novice perspective, I am wondering if it makes sense for PAHL to activate the stats tracking tools for the U18 and U16 levels for sure and maybe even U14, or at least the AA levels for some of the age groups below U16.  I do see some validity to ignoring the stats for the lower ages/lower divisions.  The scorekeeper is usually a parent volunteer from the home team.  Many are not familiar with scorekeeping and there is often a rush to complete the score sheet as soon as the horn sounds.  I get why the stats are enigmatic in those situations, and it probably is too much distraction for an A minor squirt to focus on individual stats, especially when they are inconsistently recorded.  Does a hybrid tweak make sense?  Keep/report the stats for the upper tier teams where there is probably more knowledgeable/experienced people serving as score keepers, but keep the stats muted for the more development oriented divisions?

[hockeyisgreat]

Rewster, you can see the goalie leader and goals leader for a team by clicking on the game time in the schedule.  Better than nothing I guess. I tried for 18UAA and 14UAA and got that info.

 

[hockeyisgreat]

Might want to look at it before they shut it down also!  Haha

[sarampage]

3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Might want to look at it before they shut it down also!  Haha

That's what they did several years ago when.they first moved to SE. They mistakenly had all stats available for players and goalies for a few weeks.  Then they shut it down.  It was fun while it lasted...

Edited January 11 by sarampage

[Saucey]

On 1/11/2024 at 9:50 AM, James Gatz said:

This is a good discussion with some interesting points.  From my novice perspective, I am wondering if it makes sense for PAHL to activate the stats tracking tools for the U18 and U16 levels for sure and maybe even U14, or at least the AA levels for some of the age groups below U16.  I do see some validity to ignoring the stats for the lower ages/lower divisions.  The scorekeeper is usually a parent volunteer from the home team.  Many are not familiar with scorekeeping and there is often a rush to complete the score sheet as soon as the horn sounds.  I get why the stats are enigmatic in those situations, and it probably is too much distraction for an A minor squirt to focus on individual stats, especially when they are inconsistently recorded.  Does a hybrid tweak make sense?  Keep/report the stats for the upper tier teams where there is probably more knowledgeable/experienced people serving as score keepers, but keep the stats muted for the more development oriented divisions?

This makes some sense to me. Stats were available when my kid first started, then they shut it off. I don't remember the exact reason why, but it wasn't to prevent poaching. Maybe that became the reason. I seem to think it had more to do with kids and parents focusing too much on stats over development. I did hate when goals and assists were attributed to the wrong kids in PIHL. They use those stats to pick All Stars.

[Rewster]

Just curious as to see if anyone else is mysteriously unable to locate the individual game statistics that the PAHL so graciously provided prior to this past weekend?

 

Its weird how when one clicks on the calendar when multiple games are shown; then clicks on a final score between 2 PAHL teams that played against one another…it becomes readily available that all of the game information is provided. Names, numbers, goals, assists, penalty minutes…goalie win/loss, goalie shots/saves, save % etc, are obviously included on any game prior to the weekend of 1/21/2024 and 1/20/2024.

However, when one clicks on the calendar of most recent games…there’s nothing there. At least for me. I just wanted to confirm that I am the only one experiencing this glitch. Please feel free to point out otherwise.

[nemesis8679]

Probably found that loophole they forgot to close and took it down.

[Rewster]

6 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Probably found that loophole they forgot to close and took it down.

Bush League move…in my opinion…if you’re correct.

 

Disappointing 

[James Gatz]

Same here. I am wondering if they show up. Our manager told us that because of the high error rates, they stopped having managers enter the data after the game.  Now they just submit a copy of the scoresheet and PAHL enters the info. Final scores were posted more quickly this weekend but the other data has not been entered-at least not yet. I hope they go back and enter it. 

[YardSale]

23 minutes ago, James Gatz said:

Same here. I am wondering if they show up. Our manager told us that because of the high error rates, they stopped having managers enter the data after the game.  Now they just submit a copy of the scoresheet and PAHL enters the info. Final scores were posted more quickly this weekend but the other data has not been entered-at least not yet. I hope they go back and enter it. 

This is correct, and I’ve been told they are not entering stats, just final scores.

[Icebucket]

The issue now will be that teams won't be able to track how their competition is doing with fair play points. The FPP system is awful, but it will have a major impact in the AA divisions.

[fafa fohi]

PAHL always seems to have excuses on how to NOT do the right thing.

[Rewster]

But, yet…I’m assuming that they’re still actively recording the statistics. Only, they don’t want to go through the trouble of making them public. It might make someone upset if they see that Johnny got a hat trick, but only got credited for 2 goals.
 

I wonder if anyone has given a preemptive thought about drafting a paragraph or two into their bylaws that would address these concerns over upsetting a/some parent(s). Or, perhaps simply make a link to a PDF addendum that would easily spell out what the PAHLs policies and procedures are for game sheet publication…and how to account for any suspected discrepancies. I know for a fact that other amateur leagues and organizations have at least a basic appeal process that can easily reconcile any errors. It’s really quite basic to continue posting something as simple as a scoresheet. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that nobody has brought into light, demonstrated any qualms, or raised any questions about the accuracy of the game sheets being published up to this point.

In my opinion, the PAHL needs to demonstrate that they are a legitimate, appropriately sanctioned USA Hockey Association. It’s really only raising red flags that they are reacting in a reflexive manner when they suddenly remove information as soon as it brought to light. From any outsider’s perspective, it begs the question…are they hiding something? If so, what, and why?

Why is it so easy to find the most basic data points that have routinely been collected and published (i.e. game sheets or player statistics) on every other legitimate Amateur Hockey Association in North America? Whereas, the PAHL’s powers that be are blatantly tripping over themselves trying to cover-up, or railroad, or delete, or hide, or remove, or (insert whatever applicable synonym of the word obstruct that you’d prefer to use here) information and obviously denying access of their players’ individual statistics.
 

Have the PAHL politicians really become so blatantly corrupt to the point where they are now playing a shell game of hiding all of the game sheet information? Especially at their highest 18U AA level? It’s absurd, quite frankly. It also wreaks of the unnecessary smell that inevitably occurs with deceitful behavior and the unfortunate deterioration of trust. I’m not saying that this is intentionally occurring here. I’m only pointing out that this is basic human nature and sometimes occurs.
 

Again, I’m not pointing out anyone specifically; nor am I saying that anyone is intentionally performing deceitful acts. The timing is not great. Am I the only person that sees this as a questionable conflict of interest? Or, it could also be perceived as another example of a way to privately manipulate data. The lack of transparency coupled with reactionary and increasingly restrictive behavior is unsettling. At the very least, it raises more questions than anything.

Again, my whole point is that the PAHL should be promoting their older (18U AA specifically) players in any way possible that allows the players to gain recognition; and possibly exposure “up” the traditional hockey ladder with higher levels of player development. This in turn, would help to establish the PAHL as a high-end Pittsburgh-based league that successfully develops AA players. Youth minor players would be more inclined to see the PAHLs member teams as a great opportunity to develop as a player and know that they will at least get some “looks” by other higher level clubs and leagues. Unfortunately, to many (not including me), the PAHL is viewed as a relegation league for players that couldn’t make the (sometimes faux) AAA, or the “independent” AA teams. Not knowing that many of the 18U AA PAHL teams actually do, in fact, receive scouting and coaches that occasionally attend their games.  It’s not every game, and it’s not all the time…but it does happen (probably a little more frequently this season).

 

[hockeyisgreat]

Read the PAHL Pulse for January 18th 2024.  It trys to explain their rationale for shutting off all access to the Stats.  Very sad that they don't have their act together enough and are blaming the individual teams for this mess!  I guess they can't even get the standings correct because of Fair Play Points!   Black Bear is looking better and better!

[nemesis8679]

PAHL can shove fair play points, icing on a penalty kill, and automatic offsides right up their @$$, too. 

[surecat069]

Doesn’t the PAHL have a full time, paid Executive Administrator??  It literally would take 3-4 business days audit the scoresheets for all temas/levels and make the corrections. What are we paying for again?

[sarampage]

6 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

PAHL can shove fair play points, icing on a penalty kill, and automatic offsides right up their @$$, too. 

Unfortunately, the latter two are newer USA Hockey rules and PAHL decided to adopt them, unlike PIHL.  I don't mind the no icing on a penalty kill that much, but the FPPs and auto offsides are ridiculous.

[stickboy]

Lots of teams and leagues don’t publish statistics.  Pens Elite doesn’t.  While I think it’s cool for the players and there should be stats posted for PAHL, some are putting too much stock in it regarding  promotion to the next level. No one is getting a look from a reputable scout because of their Tier 2 points published on a website. They get a look by word of mouth on their overall play and character.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

41 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

PAHL can shove fair play points, icing on a penalty kill, and automatic offsides right up their @$$, too. 

What is "icing on a penalty kill"? The short-handed team cannot ice the puck? If so, that has been a rule change they were talking about 15+ years ago. Is that just PAHL or is that USA Hockey?

[nemesis8679]

6 minutes ago, stickboy said:

Lots of teams and leagues don’t publish statistics.  Pens Elite doesn’t.  While I think it’s cool for the players and there should be stats posted for PAHL, some are putting too much stock in it regarding  promotion to the next level. No one is getting a look from a reputable scout because of their Tier 2 points published on a website. They get a look by word of mouth on their overall play and character.

That's the other thing. Unless you're keeping stats for hits, blocks, pp/pk %, etc.... Goals, assists, and penalties really don't paint a good picture of the value of a player. 

[James Gatz]

14 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

What is "icing on a penalty kill"? The short-handed team cannot ice the puck? If so, that has been a rule change they were talking about 15+ years ago. Is that just PAHL or is that USA Hockey?

This is a USA Hockey rule.  

 

From USA Hockey website:  

Modified Shorthanded Icing Rule Delivers More Skill Development

USA Hockey has modified its playing rules for the 14-and-Under age classification and all younger age classifications (youth and girls) to no longer legalize icing while a team is shorthanded. Beginning with the 2017-18 season, if a team ices the puck while shorthanded, it will result in a whistle followed by a defensive-zone faceoff. The team that commits an icing infraction will be allowed to change lines and/or players prior to the defensive-zone faceoff.

The rationale behind this rule change is twofold.

First, and most importantly, the change will encourage greater skill development for 10U, 12U and 14U players. These young athletes are in their prime skill development windows and will benefit greatly from the increased emphasis this rule change places on promoting puck possession, puck protection and play-making (as opposed to merely firing the puck down the ice, which is a low-skill tactic). Second, the change prevents a penalized team from gaining an exception to a rule (icing) that is in effect while teams are at even strength.

“We want to encourage players to get their heads up, think and make skillful, intelligent plays,” said Ken Martel, the technical director of USA Hockey’s American Development Model. “To develop problem-solving skills, we need rules that encourage players to think. Modifying the shorthanded icing rule will accomplish that. Rather than just blasting the puck down the ice, they’ll now be encouraged to skate or pass their way out of trouble, use greater touch to chip a puck out, or even take advantage of a lazy power play and go on the attack.”

Data collected from nearly 200 games played under this modified rule showed that the average number of shorthanded icings per game was only 1.81. Therefore, there were fewer than two stoppages per game due to this rule, which dispels the myth that it will ruin the flow of games and make them dramatically longer.

USA Hockey has successfully used this modified rule for more than 10 years at its National Player Development Camps. Players adapt almost immediately and more shorthanded scoring opportunities are created by the play-making mindset that it nurtures.

“Skill development and play-making is an emphasis at the professional level and it should be an absolute priority at the youth levels, so I support USA Hockey’s decision to change the rule,” said Mike Sullivan, Pittsburgh Penguins head coach and back-to-back Stanley Cup champion. “It will encourage kids to make more skill plays with the puck, and that will help develop their full potential as players.”

12 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

That's the other thing. Unless you're keeping stats for hits, blocks, pp/pk %, etc.... Goals, assists, and penalties really don't paint a good picture of the value of a player. 

At least at the younger ages, it has been hit or miss if the scoreboard operator relays shot attempts on the scoreboard.  With no score sheets, goalies do not have an easy way to keep up with how many shots they faced.  

Edited January 23 by James Gatz