AAA Teams

[Pucks11]

Serious question, what is going on with all of these 09 teams folding or not having enough kids? It's not a deep birth year as it is but reading everything on here it's anywhere from 2-4 full teams folding. There is no way that many parents are okay with their superstars playing on a mixed team.

[stickboy]

50 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

Serious question, what is going on with all of these 09 teams folding or not having enough kids? It's not a deep birth year as it is but reading everything on here it's anywhere from 2-4 full teams folding. There is no way that many parents are okay with their superstars playing on a mixed team.

Sounds about right for the actual talent pool. 

[Rewster]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:12 AM, fafa fohi said:

Any truth to the rumor that U18 AAA Vengeance has less than 20 skaters registered for tryouts?

And if 09 folded what is going on over there?

No truth to that rumor. *From what I heard…they had a legitimate number of players and definitely goalies cut down from Saturday to Sunday. I want to say that I think I heard that there were 11 or 12 goalies that were there each of the first 2 days. I am not sure about total number of skaters. But, I guess it’s easier to pick out and count the goalies rather than the skaters. The goalies are a little different too (in a variety of ways).

I don’t know if that tryout number ramped up quickly or what, (and I know how the numbers and talent can reduce at the 18U level) but I’d say that the recent reduction of 06 AAA squads in PGH caused a funneling effect amongst the teams available. When Pittsburgh goes from 6 AAA 2006 birth year-based teams to 3 in about one year…either there is an increase in the number of regional call ups to juniors and/or the incoming 2007 numbers can’t replenish and sustain the competitive levels that are needed. 
Probably a little of both.

 

Edited April 22 by Rewster
Grammer

[Hockey247]

I’m curious what came of all of the movement among the teams.  Is there any confirmation of the teams that were rumored to fold?  Which teams seem to be starting from scratch, with all new players?  It seems the 09’s seemed to take a hit this year.

[HappyHockeyPucks]

Vengeance 2009 - Why are they having so much trouble filling out the roster? The 2009 renegades team had several really good AA players that could fill out a roster. 

[zam]

21 minutes ago, HappyHockeyPucks said:

Vengeance 2009 - Why are they having so much trouble filling out the roster? The 2009 renegades team had several really good AA players that could fill out a roster. 

It's possible those kids aren't interested in a more rigorous AAA practice/travel schedule. But it's more likely, AAA players (parents) don't want to play with half a team of AA players.   It's all perception. Unfortunately you don't see many PAHL AA players making the jump to a AAA team at these ages no matter how good they are.  Instead you see these "Has-been AAA players" move around from other "AAA" organizations.  Sounds better saying we brought these kids in from the Barons than the Lawrence County Lightning.

[HatTrick]

And that is why we have aaa teams that can't fill.  The aaa teams think that everyone wants to play aaa.  But in reality there are not enough customers willing to pay for extra travel and the same level of hockey you could most likely get local. 

[Corsi]

There are always going to be "enough customers" and that isn't just for hockey, people will buy into anything.  I've said this in prior posts, but the 2009's are now hitting that age where USA Hockey historically sees a drop in registration numbers regardless of the reason (jobs, significant others, booze, etc).  Also, it has been stated before that some of these players are needing to decide about PIHL vs. travel hockey and everything else going on in their lives.   

[James Gatz]

@zam hits on an important point, and that's that parents of "tenured" AAA players are not always accepting of new additions if they were historically AA/PAHL players.  An established AAA team loses a couple players for whatever reason.  As they replace them, other returning families assume there will be a drop-off and then one or two more pull out.  At some point there is a run on the bank as more leave what they see as a sinking ship to find a chair somewhere else before the music stops.  

Its not necessarily that there are not customers, it is sometimes that existing/returning customers, don't accept change.

[No Politics]

9 minutes ago, Corsi said:

There are always going to be "enough customers" and that isn't just for hockey, people will buy into anything.  I've said this in prior posts, but the 2009's are now hitting that age where USA Hockey historically sees a drop in registration numbers regardless of the reason (jobs, significant others, booze, etc).  Also, it has been stated before that some of these players are needing to decide about PIHL vs. travel hockey and everything else going on in their lives.   

SO true.

[Carl Racki]

1 hour ago, HappyHockeyPucks said:

Vengeance 2009 - Why are they having so much trouble filling out the roster? The 2009 renegades team had several really good AA players that could fill out a roster. 

So if you brought the "good" players from the AA Renegades you might have a good AA team not a AAA team.  I am not sure how many actual AAA caliber players were at the vengeance tryouts.  Same thing happened last season to Esmark.  At least Esmark didn't still have a team and folded as it would have been bad.  

[No Politics]

5 minutes ago, James Gatz said:

As they replace them, other returning families assume there will be a drop-off and then one or two more pull out.  At some point there is a run on the bank as more leave what they see as a sinking ship to find a chair somewhere else before the music stops.  

True.  And the flipside to that the numbers get so low that the parents of the kids (and the kids) trying to get onto that AAA team view it as "if there aren't a lot of kids trying out, we can sneak onto that higher-level team" instead of thinking of what it actually means to play on a higher-level team.

It's not about "sneaking" onto a team, and so many organizations are willing to accept that sneaking as long as it brings in the cheddar.  Then people leave.  It's a vicious cycle that feeds itself into the sh*t we are watching.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

To anybody that thinks a kid moving up from AA to AAA in the later stages of their youth careen can’t be as good as their little Johnny who has  always played AAA, go pound salt. I know a kid who didn’t play AAA until U18. Was the best Dman on his AAA team. Went on to NAHL, and then Division 1. His teammates have not have the same success. 

[James Gatz]

8 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

To anybody that thinks a kid moving up from AA to AAA in the later stages of their youth careen can’t be as good as their little Johnny who has  always played AAA, go pound salt. I know a kid who didn’t play AAA until U18. Was the best Dman on his AAA team. Went on to NAHL, and then Division 1. His teammates have not have the same success. 

Look no further than Michael Bunting as a shining example.  Never played AAA Midget until his final year of eligibility.

 

[hockeyisgreat]

Just a little perspective!  Western Pa had 29 18U teams, All levels. last year 16U/15U  Had 52 teams and Bantam 14U had 72 Teams.  That's PAHL and Independent.  Kind of what I thought.  The most interesting is the 11 AAA teams between 15U and 16U A compared to 5 AAA teams at 18U.

[zam]

6 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

To anybody that thinks a kid moving up from AA to AAA in the later stages of their youth careen can’t be as good as their little Johnny who has  always played AAA, go pound salt. I know a kid who didn’t play AAA until U18. Was the best Dman on his AAA team. Went on to NAHL, and then Division 1. His teammates have not have the same success. 

I wasn't saying AA players aren't capable or deserving of moving up to AAA teams at that age.  I was being more critical of the organizations. They treat AAA as a club, you either belong or you don't, it's hard to break in. So they keep bringing in "AAA" kids that peaked when they were 11 years old.

Reminds me of NHL coaches, same 30 dudes keep switching teams. How often does a new up and coming coach get a chance?

 

[YardSale]

1 hour ago, zam said:

I wasn't saying AA players aren't capable or deserving of moving up to AAA teams at that age.  I was being more critical of the organizations. They treat AAA as a club, you either belong or you don't, it's hard to break in. So they keep bringing in "AAA" kids that peaked when they were 11 years old.

Reminds me of NHL coaches, same 30 dudes keep switching teams. How often does a new up and coming coach get a chance?

 

Only argument I have regarding the "no lack of customers" sentiment is that Esmark and Vengeance '09 had really low numbers at their skates and V barely had a turnout at tryouts.  That doesn't tell me AA kids are wanting to move up and aren't being taken, that tells me AA kids are happy where they are and see low end AAA for what it is.

[Saucey]

Maybe people can't afford it, too. The cost of these programs keeps skyrocketing, and they've been around long enough to see you don't get the return promised.

[Stanley PK]

Exactly Saucey.

[Corsi]

27 minutes ago, YardSale said:

Only argument I have regarding the "no lack of customers" sentiment is that Esmark and Vengeance '09 had really low numbers at their skates and V barely had a turnout at tryouts.  That doesn't tell me AA kids are wanting to move up and aren't being taken, that tells me AA kids are happy where they are and see low end AAA for what it is.

In this situation, you are probably correct.  Esmark was attempting to resurrect something that blew up last year.  The consensus has been that parents and players are not going to do the drive to New Kensington.  If we look at where the current AAA teams are for 2009, there is PPE (Cranberry), Preds (South Hills), and SHAHA (South Hills).  No idea what has/is happening with Vengeance, but Esmark seems to come down to location.

[Hockey247]

The rumor was a lot of 09 AA Badgers were jumping ship and going to Esmark, along with 09 Vengeance.  I’m not sure how that played out, but I assume 09 Esmark had a larger turnout, while Vengeance suffered.  It may be smart on Vengeance, to have that supplemental, because there has to be an overflow.  I’m not familiar as to whether the tryout dates normally overlap like they did, but that has to hurt some teams (as well as benefit others).

[Carl Racki]

23 minutes ago, Hockey247 said:

The rumor was a lot of 09 AA Badgers were jumping ship and going to Esmark, along with 09 Vengeance.  I’m not sure how that played out, but I assume 09 Esmark had a larger turnout, while Vengeance suffered.  It may be smart on Vengeance, to have that supplemental, because there has to be an overflow.  I’m not familiar as to whether the tryout dates normally overlap like they did, but that has to hurt some teams (as well as benefit others).

Here is how I have seen the 2009 story go this tryout season.  Players of the 2009 Vengeance pretty much all decided to jump ship.  Most of their top players seemed to go to the Preds tryouts.  Some made it some did not.  I think then some went to Esmark tryouts after getting cut from other places.  Now you have the left overs from all the tryouts that have been cut probably several times looking into Vengeance.  People are nuts.  Then you have some that were cut from several teams looking for prep schools.  It never ends.  

[nemesis8679]

 The younger you start, the easier it is to get on teams. Once you're on the team, the easier it is to stay. At some point school hockey becomes important to kids. Say what you want, but playing for the school team is important for a lot of kids- it comes with a certain amount of popularity amongst their peers, hearing their name on the announcements, etc. Things that don't come with playing for a Vengeance, Esmark, or wherever. 

A lot of kids want to go to the movies with their friends or go hang out with their girlfriend or whatever on the weekend. Not say, "oh sorry, I can't go. I have to go to Philadelphia this weekend for hockey" and get left out. 

So with being on the school team and the commitment that goes with that (and the cost of playing for the school team added in), some kids are going to want to just play for school and a team that's a little bit more schedule-friendly. 

Believe it or not, some kids like to play hockey but also have other interests and things they like to do. So by this age they start realizing that. And at this age, the parental influence on what they want to do is becoming much less. 

Edited April 24 by nemesis8679

[stickboy]

1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

And at this age, the parental influence on what they want to do is becoming much less. 

Bingo!  Mom and dad finally realize the dream is not attainable and pull back. 

 It’s the same thing every year. We never listen to those ahead of us that tell us exactly how it is. We think they are just bitter and it’s going to be different for us.  But in reality it is the same:  If at 15u/16u you aren’t a top player on Pens or at a top nationally ranked out of town program, Tier1Juniors/NCAA/pro hockey isn’t in the cards.  Yes, there are a few exceptions, but be honest: is your player the exception?

From what I’m reading lately, it seems that maybe folks are waking up and bowing out of the AAA rat race and going AA.  Maybe we’ll start seeing some better AA and high school hockey in the coming years?
 

 

 

[YardSale]

4 minutes ago, stickboy said:

Bingo!  Mom and dad finally realize the dream is not attainable and pull back. 

 It’s the same thing every year. We never listen to those ahead of us that tell us exactly how it is. We think they are just bitter and it’s going to be different for us.  But in reality it is the same:  If at 15u/16u you aren’t a top player on Pens or at a top nationally ranked out of town program, Tier1Juniors/NCAA/pro hockey isn’t in the cards.  Yes, there are a few exceptions, but be honest: is your player the exception?

From what I’m reading lately, it seems that maybe folks are waking up and bowing out of the AAA rat race and going AA.  Maybe we’ll start seeing some better AA and high school hockey in the coming years?
 

 

 

One can dream for that outcome, I'm not holding my breath.