Officiating

[TheRightCall]

2 hours ago, LGP13 said:

What are the standards that referees are held to? 

I agree that most of the time refs are just doing their job and allowing the kids to enjoy playing the game they love to play. I also agree with (for the most part) refs could really careless who wins and loses and they don't go into games thinking positively or negatively about the teams.

I am however curious as to what standards they are held to? They have the power to throw players, fans, coaches out of games that people are paying money to attend or provide to their kids. What about when the refs are terrible? Nothing? Deal with it? 

I had one of the worst refs referee my game. Missed calls, weak calls against, goal called that clearly hit the post (overwrote the other ref and made the call from center ice), and yes I got thrown out for arguing the calls after dealing with it for 2 periods. It is humorous because I knew this ref was going to be terrible because he ref'd adult league games back when I played and was terrible at them as well. Now all the info gave above, I would like to know how a guy that seemly likes to get his rocks off on agitating young kids instead of talking to them and explaining infractions. Is power hungry about the fact he can throw people out and affect games instead of just ref'ing them fairly, and now seemly has the ability to keep coaches from coaching their teams is allowed to just be his word is law with no recourse?

Well Tom Chybrzynski Sr, you are in fact the worst ref I have ever seen. Probably a worse person outside of the rink, and if anyone is reading this that schedules refs, I highly suggest you ask for a new one or just play the game with 1 ref.

 

Normally, I laugh at posts like this and write them off, but I felt like I owed everyone to get it out there.

What a classless post by another angry parent trying to live vicariously through his kid. Calling out an official while hiding behind a message board handle, nice. Who are you to question a call? A missed call? Gimme a break. If you are such a knowledgable hockey person, why not start officiating so you can give back to the game. You would most likely no be able to handle even a 10U B game.

[LGP13]

12 minutes ago, TheRightCall said:

What a classless post by another angry parent trying to live vicariously through his kid. Calling out an official while hiding behind a message board handle, nice. Who are you to question a call? A missed call? Gimme a break. If you are such a knowledgable hockey person, why not start officiating so you can give back to the game. You would most likely no be able to handle even a 10U B game.

Lol okay bud

[TheRightCall]

Figured you would respond with something like this. Clown. 

Edited February 19 by TheRightCall

[Icebucket]

While it certainly isn't right to call the guy out while hiding behind a screen name here, I do agree with the fact that there is nothing to hold the refs accountable. The refs have no real reason to work to get better at their jobs. They are going to keep getting games whether they are good or not.

most refs in this area are not great, but keep in mind that both teams are playing with below average refs so over the long run it should even out.

[TheRightCall]

16 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

While it certainly isn't right to call the guy out while hiding behind a screen name here, I do agree with the fact that there is nothing to hold the refs accountable. The refs have no real reason to work to get better at their jobs. They are going to keep getting games whether they are good or not.

most refs in this area are not great, but keep in mind that both teams are playing with below average refs so over the long run it should even out.

Well said. This falls in the hands of USA Hockey and MidAm, two organizations that are run by incompetent people and good old boys. The incident report portal is archaic and very difficult to navigate, which is why many officials avoid calling penalties that require a report. Often, player and/or coach names cannot be located or a team is not properly listed. Right or wrong, this is a fact.

I know some officials who take pride in what they do--few, but there are some. These are the people who when seen hitting the ice, the coaches, players, and parents breathe a sigh of relief. Then, there those who when seen hitting the ice, the coaches, players, and parents say, "Oh no--not this clown."

[Icebucket]

9 hours ago, TheRightCall said:

Well said. This falls in the hands of USA Hockey and MidAm, two organizations that are run by incompetent people and good old boys. The incident report portal is archaic and very difficult to navigate, which is why many officials avoid calling penalties that require a report. Often, player and/or coach names cannot be located or a team is not properly listed. Right or wrong, this is a fact.

I know some officials who take pride in what they do--few, but there are some. These are the people who when seen hitting the ice, the coaches, players, and parents breathe a sigh of relief. Then, there those who when seen hitting the ice, the coaches, players, and parents say, "Oh no--not this clown."

Spot on. It's not really the refs fault that no one keeps tabs on them. And there are a few very good refs in the area but not nearly enough.

Considering most youth hockey is using a two man system, it always makes for interesting games when you have a very good ref paired with a bad one.

[LGP13]

13 hours ago, TheRightCall said:

Figured you would respond with something like this. Clown. 

I responded like this or ignored your post because it serves no purpose. My post has questions and facts that happened. Every word of your post is false or an assumption, why waste my time defending myself because you are butthurt that I called out a ref for having a bad game?

I don't know about you, but at my job I have to answer to someone if I don't perform or do my job to my company's standards. 

[Corsi]

The reason we have a shortage of officials around the country is due to the post calling out the official by name.  I have done games for 20+ years and the behavior of coaches, players, and fans has gotten progressively worse over that time period.  Please DO NOT take this as me "calling out" everyone.  There are some coaches and players who simply want an explanation and, agree or not, are respectful during the conversation.  There are also players, and coaches that decide that they know the game better than everyone involved and thus refuse to have any kind of discussion and simply resort to shouting and swearing until the official has not choice but to impose a penalty for the behavior.  That is on the coach and player, not on the official.  Unfortunately, this behavior has led to the situation where you have no choice but to take whatever official you can get because no body else will do it.  Also, this also isn't exclusive to just hockey, there's a shortage of officials across all sports because of the behavior exhibited by parents, coaches, and players.  

The simple answer to this is to say "if you think it is so easy, do it yourself", but the earlier post indicates to me that LGP13 probably wouldn't have the temperament to successfully cover a game.  There is not a single official in any sport at any level that can say they have never made a mistake on a call or a rule interpretation and that is called being human.  I would suggest being appreciative that these men and women are willing to get up at 6AM on a Saturday/Sunday morning so that little Stevie or Sally are able to play their 7AM 10U B game after working their "real job" all week or cover your adult league game at 11PM on a Wednesday night and then get up to go to said job.  Always remember, if the officials don't show up, nobody plays.  

[TheRightCall]

39 minutes ago, LGP13 said:

I responded like this or ignored your post because it serves no purpose. My post has questions and facts that happened. Every word of your post is false or an assumption, why waste my time defending myself because you are butthurt that I called out a ref for having a bad game?

I don't know about you, but at my job I have to answer to someone if I don't perform or do my job to my company's standards. 

You lost everyone when you resorted to calling out someone by name. Since you know so much about the game, step up and get your ref credentials next year. You can show everyone how it is to be done. Wait, we will get the "I am too busy" excuse. I am sure Livebarn shows you as such a respectful person on the bench.

[LGP13]

7 minutes ago, TheRightCall said:

You lost everyone when you resorted to calling out someone by name. Since you know so much about the game, step up and get your ref credentials next year. You can show everyone how it is to be done. Wait, we will get the "I am too busy" excuse. I am sure Livebarn shows you as such a respectful person on the bench.

I have ref'd for like 4-5 years. Don't do anymore because I coach and my job pays me enough I don't need the 60$ spending money.

 

I don't care if I lost anyone or not. I'm making people aware. Also, I came here asking questions about standards and what the procedures are for quality control.

 

Now that I've debunked your assumptions, now what?

 

I was being respectful, you won't know that though because the next excuse will be that you can't hear what is being said when I ask for explainations.

 

Your just a troll and mad I called out one of your fellow officials for being a shitty ref. I get it, you don't want that to be the norm. Next thing you know everyone is on here blasting every officials' name. I understand your frustration and how you want to be defensive, bottom line is treat people with respect and don't just show up to collect your 75$, maybe explain to kids why calls are made or what you saw. Basically, don't be an elitist jerkoff because you have the power to make calls and throw people out. 

 

I'm done with replying here as I found the information I was looking for. Have a great day!

[hockeyisgreat]

10 minutes ago, LGP13 said:

I have ref'd for like 4-5 years. Don't do anymore because I coach and my job pays me enough I don't need the 60$ spending money.

 

I don't care if I lost anyone or not. I'm making people aware. Also, I came here asking questions about standards and what the procedures are for quality control.

 

Now that I've debunked your assumptions, now what?

 

I was being respectful, you won't know that though because the next excuse will be that you can't hear what is being said when I ask for explainations.

 

Your just a troll and mad I called out one of your fellow officials for being a shitty ref. I get it, you don't want that to be the norm. Next thing you know everyone is on here blasting every officials' name. I understand your frustration and how you want to be defensive, bottom line is treat people with respect and don't just show up to collect your 75$, maybe explain to kids why calls are made or what you saw. Basically, don't be an elitist jerkoff because you have the power to make calls and throw people out. 

 

I'm done with replying here as I found the information I was looking for. Have a great day!

Care to share where you found the info you were looking for?

[LGP13]

3 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Care to share where you found the info you were looking for?

I left an email with PGM off Alpha's site. They handled the scheduling.

 

I emailed the officiating director for MidAm.

 

And I called and left a message officiating advancement director for USA Hockey.

 

Probably won't get anywhere, but worth a shot.

[hockeyisgreat]

4 minutes ago, LGP13 said:

I left an email with PGM off Alpha's site. They handled the scheduling.

 

I emailed the officiating director for MidAm.

 

And I called and left a message officiating advancement director for USA Hockey.

 

Probably won't get anywhere, but worth a shot.

When you were officiating did you ever get an evaluation? Just curious?

[LGP13]

8 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

When you were officiating did you ever get an evaluation? Just curious?

No, I helped ref adult leagues for my local rink like 15 yrs ago.

[nemesis8679]

Some referees are great. They make fair calls, they communicate to players why they got a penalty or are about to get one, and they're great for the game.

Some referees are terrible and are excused because "people are mean" and nobody wants to do it. Ever work any job? Yeah, people can be a pain in the ass. Deal with it. Have I heard people yelling about calls? You bet. Have I heard people calling the refs names/swearing at them? Not really. Over over 8 years of many, many games I could count those times on one hand. And every one of them was thrown out. Except the time or two when they threw the wrong person out.

Maybe they should be paid more. I'm willing to share in the cost of that, if it means having competent refereeing. 

[Icebucket]

4 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Some referees are great. They make fair calls, they communicate to players why they got a penalty or are about to get one, and they're great for the game.

Some referees are terrible and are excused because "people are mean" and nobody wants to do it. Ever work any job? Yeah, people can be a pain in the ass. Deal with it. Have I heard people yelling about calls? You bet. Have I heard people calling the refs names/swearing at them? Not really. Over over 8 years of many, many games I could count those times on one hand. And every one of them was thrown out. Except the time or two when they threw the wrong person out.

Maybe they should be paid more. I'm willing to share in the cost of that, if it means having competent refereeing. 

Most refs are over paid already. The good refs earn their pay, but when thinking about the horrible ones it's almost aggravating how much they make. If they were to do that poorly at any other job they'd get fired or be stuck working for minimum wage. Last I checked the hourly rate for refs was well about that mark.

[Corsi]

2 hours ago, Icebucket said:

Most refs are over paid already. The good refs earn their pay, but when thinking about the horrible ones it's almost aggravating how much they make. If they were to do that poorly at any other job they'd get fired or be stuck working for minimum wage. Last I checked the hourly rate for refs was well about that mark.

Lowering the amount officials are being paid would only make the ref shortage worse.  I don't think you are going to find people to take time out of their day to do games, especially at the hours many of these games occur.  For me to do a 7AM game, I need to be at the rink no later than 6:30 to get ready, and then we add in travel time, I'm probably getting up at 5:30 to do that 7AM game.  The amount of money officials make is to give them an incentive to do the games.  I would venture to say that by lowering what officials make, would lead to no coverage for games with start times before 9AM and as I stated before...  If the officials don't show up, nobody gets to play.  

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

59 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Lowering the amount officials are being paid would only make the ref shortage worse.  I don't think you are going to find people to take time out of their day to do games, especially at the hours many of these games occur.  For me to do a 7AM game, I need to be at the rink no later than 6:30 to get ready, and then we add in travel time, I'm probably getting up at 5:30 to do that 7AM game.  The amount of money officials make is to give them an incentive to do the games.  I would venture to say that by lowering what officials make, would lead to no coverage for games with start times before 9AM and as I stated before...  If the officials don't show up, nobody gets to play.  

Does a referee truly "owe" an explanation for a call? My gut says no. If you had to explain every single call, you would never finish a game. I feel like people who say that a call wasn't "explained" really just want to yell at the referee to either get the call overturned or intimidate the official into not making the next call. That's not to say that there aren't officials making terrible calls, but, let's be honest, there are plenty of players making terrible plays too and they don't have to hear about it from everyone else in the rink.

I haven't looked at a rulebook in years, but when I did, I remember reading something along the lines of the referee only has to talk to the team captain who is marked with a "C" on the scoresheet. The official can talk to other people as courtesy, but the official only has to talk to the officially designated captain.

[Corsi]

22 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Does a referee truly "owe" an explanation for a call? My gut says no. If you had to explain every single call, you would never finish a game. I feel like people who say that a call wasn't "explained" really just want to yell at the referee to either get the call overturned or intimidate the official into not making the next call. That's not to say that there aren't officials making terrible calls, but, let's be honest, there are plenty of players making terrible plays too and they don't have to hear about it from everyone else in the rink.

I haven't looked at a rulebook in years, but when I did, I remember reading something along the lines of the referee only has to talk to the team captain who is marked with a "C" on the scoresheet. The official can talk to other people as courtesy, but the official only has to talk to the officially designated captain.

Yes, an official has the authority to tell a team that he is only going to talk to one of the designated captains or only the head coach.  In my coaching days, I had a number of officials tell me and my other coaches that they would only be speaking with the head coach.  This was their way to keep the amount of grief they heard from the benches to a minimum.  

To answer your first question, a ref has NO obligation to explain a call to a player.  I've had coaches get on me because "I didn't explain the call to the player".  My response back to him was "that is called coaching and that is what you are here to do, I'm just here to call the game".  I will always clearly say what the call was, but I'm not going to have a 5 minute conversation rehashing the play and why I made the call.  I'll also only discuss calls if the coach is doing it in a respectful way.  If they are screaming at me or my partner, I just ignore them and tell them that we will have conversation when they can do it at a "normal volume".

[Icebucket]

I think the only time it becomes a problem is when a poor official makes a bad call and realizes it. Instead of acknowledging that they made a mistake, just like coaches and players do all the time, they take the "I'm the authority here and I will call the game the way I'd like" approach. Just man up, say my bad, and everyone can move on.

I see no reason for an official to have to explain every call. But when a very questionable call is made at least inform the coach on how you saw it. Or even better, when a player asks what he can do next time to avoid the call, actually give him the guidance he is looking for instead of giving him an additional 10

[nemesis8679]

Absolutely a coach has the right to question a call and the referee has an obligation to explain it. If the ref can't explain the call, then it shouldn't have been made. 

Edited February 21 by nemesis8679

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

6 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Absolutely a coach has the right to question a call and the referee has an obligation to explain it. If the ref can't explain the call, then it shouldn't have been made. 

I think you have the right as a coach to ask the question, but the referee doesn't have to respond. I have seen plenty of respectful and productive conversations result from a question, but I have seen plenty that are not. At the end of the day, blaming the calls or the officials is like blaming the YMCA rink for painting the goal lines too close to the end boards. I mean, yeah, it can affect the game, and the home team has a better idea of what will happen, but both teams are still playing by the same rules.

[Corsi]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:44 AM, nemesis8679 said:

Absolutely a coach has the right to question a call and the referee has an obligation to explain it. If the ref can't explain the call, then it shouldn't have been made. 

A coach can ask all kinds of questions, but that doesn't mean that he will always get a response or an explanation.  The game needs to be kept moving, so taking time to have a conversation every time a coach has a question or wants an explanation for a call is impossible to have.  The majority of questions coaches have are not of the "why did you make that call" sort of thing, they are of the "the other team just did the same thing a period and a half ago and didn't get called, so why are you calling us for it now" type of question.  That is a conversation where there's no good outcome for either the coach or the official.  No one is going to get an answer that they like in that situation.

[nemesis8679]

8 hours ago, Corsi said:

A coach can ask all kinds of questions, but that doesn't mean that he will always get a response or an explanation.  The game needs to be kept moving, so taking time to have a conversation every time a coach has a question or wants an explanation for a call is impossible to have.  The majority of questions coaches have are not of the "why did you make that call" sort of thing, they are of the "the other team just did the same thing a period and a half ago and didn't get called, so why are you calling us for it now" type of question.  That is a conversation where there's no good outcome for either the coach or the official.  No one is going to get an answer that they like in that situation.

I get what you mean. But the "why did you call it now when the same thing has been let go prior?" is also a legitimate question. 

[sadday4hockey]

Right, it's called asking for consistency which is a fair ask.