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Since many have chosen to look down on the Aviators, I figured I would post a little upside (truth) for you about the Aviators. Full disclosure, I'm a parent. Yes, a few years ago they were down to only a small handful of teams. Two, maybe three teams left including their 19u ladies team. They secured a home at Alpha and since then have grown to 8 teams, with 4 this past season competing in PAHL AA division. Two of those teams competed in the PAHL 14u AA minor(2010) division and both were playoff teams. A bounce either way could have had both teams playing for the championship. One of those teams won the regular season and playoff championship. It was actually their second consecutive championship in that division. In fact, over the past 2 seasons that team has compiled a record of 86-15-4 with a goal differential of 518-201. They played everyone who would play them. The record alone should show they need to be playing higher level competition. The problem is, without the 3rd "A", they can't get those games. The only local AAA organization that would agree to play them was Vengeance. Yes, the Vengeance won the game 5-1 (for those who wish to find out what the final was) however, it was a tight game (2-1) through two periods. The Aviators wore down, plain and simple. It was their second game of the day vs. the Vengeance only game of the day. So for those to say can't even field a decent AA team, or it’s one “Dad Coach” who is recruiting, well those are just ignorant statements. They had 4 this past season with 2 fantastic teams in the 2010 group alone. Next, to say it's a money grab, again that's simply just ignorant. The kids earned their rights to play higher competition and as I stated before, they can't get those games without the 3rd "A". I was happy to see someone explain Tier 1 for those unaware, and I just learned the true difference this year. No, you can't simply declare Tier 1 AAA. Doesn't work that way, and as far as Tier 1 or Tier 2 goes, there are tons of 2010 Tier 1 AAA teams out there ranked well below the lowly 2010AA 14U 1 Aviators. Many teams ranked above them are there simply because of strength of schedule. Because they are "AAA", they can get those games and benefit greatly from it when it comes to MHR, which drives everything in youth hockey. Not gonna argue what “true AAA” is and what is not. Is PPE the top team? Yep. Quite honestly it doesn’t matter. It’s nothing more than a snap-shot in time. Where they are today. None of the A’s indicative of their collective hockey futures or futures in general. There are kids playing at that “top level” today who may trade it all in next year and play something else, or simply never develop beyond where they are today and there are “A” kids today who may develop into a highly recruited kid in 4 years. None of us know what will happen. As I disclosed earlier, I am an Aviator parent, and proud to be one. We drive an extremely long distance, not to “chase a third A” but to be with an organization that we are happy with. A place we have fun. A place where our kid is happy and healthy. The organization is an extended family for us. We have relationships with families from just about every team in the organization. It’s those types of things that attract people to the organization, which is why it has grown so much in the past 3 years. At the end of the day, we as parents make huge commitments and sacrifices for our kids, shouldn’t it be fun for all of us? So I would say, don’t bash an organization you really don’t know anything about, or at least preface your statements with, “I really don’t know anything about the Aviators today, but……”. This is really a great organization to be part of. Great kids, great families, great coaches. Let’s Fly Boys!!!

I haven't coached in 10+ years, but have won plenty of league championships. And I'm sure the world hasn't changed that much and the players would much rather win it all, vs being given the opportunity to put up 9 points in a 15 goal win. Maybe develop someone other than your top 5 when games are in hand and it will pay off in those big games where depth comes into play.

Would pay to see that game. Top 6 in D2 this year were pretty damn good. The kid from Burrell would of set records if he played all of the games. He also scored against the tougher teams in the division, not like some others. He was also a team player, when the game was in hand for Burrell, he focused on helping other kids try to score that didn't see much playing time during the season. True sportsmanship. And yes, I am a Burrell parent.

And to go a step further since you love he coach so much. He's a coach who can run it up against bad teams, but can't coach well enough to win tough games when it matters. "3 losses in 3 years", but zero championships

Where does D-2 get plenty of publicity? Has there ever been a D-2 player recognized in your Stellar 6? You didn't even include them in your rankings and Keith Barnes didn't include them in his previews or articles on the championship previews. Where is there any mention of D-2 in your history of PA high school hockey book? And didn't I say that was a wonderful list. Why don't you congratulate the player that led all of the PIHL in scoring? He can't make your Stellar 6? Whats the criteria for inclusion?

D-2 is impure teams with multiple High Schools and was originally supposed to develop into pure and never did. Schools in AAA, AA and A work very hard to earn an opportunity to play for a State Championship and are rewarded for their efforts. TJ beat Greensburg Salem 8-0 in the PAHSS and both had all their players and was a good experience because Salem rebounded and committed themselves and almost pulled off a Penguins Cup this year. Canevin sent half their players to play Latrobe ? Why? Look at what Avonworth is doing and South Park is doing with MS and Developmental and they should be applauded

Agreed. They even had some AAA teams in the early 2000s. I believe George Ferguson coached one of them. The owner might be out of jail now, but he's probably not going back into the rink business.

Got to agree with you 100% I would love to see the top 6 in D-2 play the Stellar 6. Congratulations Burrell on a great season! A bad call away from a chance at the championship. One of the best championship games. I will say that D-2 might come up a little short in the goalie area.

Let's take the top 6 in D2 and play the stellar six and see what happens?

I thought that was already the case? All the As, divisions, etc are what the local areas do to help organize competitive divisions.

Went to nationals... it's not like that's an earned spot at the HS level

I assume no one speared anyone.

Safe to assume this is someone who lives in the South hills?

BC beat Cv this year

I don't want to make a case for the D2 kids because I haven't seen them in person, but it appears the Stellar 6 Player from the A Blue division also got nearly half of his points against some really awful bottom 5 teams. And quite honestly the other half of his points came against the playoff teams in that blue division. And if the playoffs showed us anything it's that other that CV, the rest of that division was also pretty bad. Is he a good player? Maybe. But he probably only gets a fraction of those stats if he played against the likes of QV, Shaler, Indiana, GB, Meadville, NC all season. Not taking anything away from the young man, he led the team to the Pens Cup, Undefeated Season, Freshman and all that, but it's the same situation.

Did you read through the post?

LOL I never told you what to do now did I? I stated what I WOULD DO. And I also said "to each his own." Make your own decision - I don't really care what you do. Preds and Icemen AAA coaches are always looking for that diamond in the rough and parents with a thick wallet, maybe you and your player fit the bill.

Yes, he is the general manager, head of player development and director of hockey operations 😃. Can't wait to see when 1 of the special needs kids makes him mad, then again he will probably have Livebarn turned off like he usually does.

Take a look at the 14U (2009) this season. There were 8 teams in Mid-Am playing Tier 1 - 4 from Western PA (Pittsburgh), 2 from Ohio and 2 from Indiana. The two teams from Indiana did not qualify. Two Ohio teams are from Columbus and Cleveland, with home rinks separated by a 2-hour drive from each other and thus typically have their respective areas top players with little to no competition. Aside from PPE (which as pointed out on the board is generally the 1 or 1A team from the region), the other three teams were all from Pittsburgh (Predators, Vengeance and SHAHA) with home rinks all seperated by less than 50 miles (most 10-20 miles). Did these teams not deserve to be there? Should they have played and competed for Tier II? Looking at the rankings and final standings and such, if any of these teams would have dropped out and played for Tier II instead, they would certainly been playing for the Tier II National Championship next week, and would have been odds on favorite to be Tier II National Champions. So which is better? Being a top Tier I team and making districts with little to no chance of winning or being Tier II National Champions? If you surveyed all the players and parents on these teams, I would guess almost all would say they would rather be on a Tier I team and not win (as many probably somehow believe they can win). On the other hand, look at 16U (2007). There are now 12 teams competing for Tier I. Here you start getting competition from the Prep Schools - Culver and Gilmour, also Esmark which is also known to recruit from out of town for 16U and 18U, or otherwise get some PPE players when PPE does additional recruiting. But now you also add Icemen in locally. If you look at the six teams who did not qualify for Mid-Ams, locally you have Vengeance (89.51), Icemen (87.01), and Predators (86.22) - compared to the top Tier II local teams Armstrong (87.84), Steel City Renegades (competing for national championship) (86.84). Would these Tier I teams been better served playing Tier II and competing for the National Championship? What about getting to play local high school as well? Another factor everyone brings up is that it is about getting to and advancing to higher levels, particularly junior teams and college teams. A lot of the problem comes down to, and has already been addressed on this board, is that Tier II just doesn't get same level of recognition regardless of team strength, individual skill, etc.

This breakdown of US Junior seems correct. As far as having players go to Junior for a year or two following their HS graduation does make some sense. Hockey is what's considered a "late specialization" sport, which means that players don't reach their peak until mid 20's. This is compared to "early specialization" sports like figure skating and gymnastics (mid/late teens). It only makes sense that college coaches would be looking for players who are physically, mentally, and emotionally more mature than a 17 or 18 year old who is just coming out of high school and is probably living life on their own for the first time ever. With the players staying home and experiencing the "rites of passage" that is an individual player's decision. Historically, the registration numbers for USA Hockey tend to begin to slide around ages 14-16. The theory has usually been that players and their families are making the choice that the expense and time commitment is out weighed by the desire to do things like hangout with friends or significant others, have a job, party, etc. As long as organizations are up front with players and families about what the expectations are and what sacrifices may have to be made, I don't see a problem.

Aviators can't put together a good AA team let alone AAA. Since losing home ice, they struggled to put together any team. That's a good one. But they are trying something new. They have a home ice now? Who knows, roll of the dice. Some of these programs end up occasionally having some success, but it's a flash in the pan success. Usually it's a highly invested dad coach who heavily recruits and makes one good team. Then that kid ages out or moves on and the team falls apart. Vengeance is pretty much all new now. People who started it are gone. Who knows. You kind of have to be connected to that crew of talent to know where to go It's hard to recommend AA anymore. Most AAA is basically AA now. If I had a young player, I would not even know where to have them play these days. Coaching. At this point the best advice is to get good coaching. Fits into your schedule. Easy rink to get to. You can afford it. Good non drama to families.

While that is a wonderful list it is very sad that Keith Barnes does not recognize the co-op players! Ryan Saginaw and Gio Valentine were as good if not better than the Stellar 6! It's not their fault that they play for teams that need to combine schools to form a team. I would say that what they accomplished in some ways was tougher than what the Stellar 6 accomplished! Anyone ever ask Barnes why he doesn't even consider D-2!

Some may say the life experiences of living with a host family in a new city, and traveling the US and Canada while developing relationships with that family, coaches, and players all while pushing oneself to succeed at the highest level of their sport might be more beneficial than attending a dance at the Burgettstown Days Inn.

As someone posted earlier either here or on a different thread, it is not absolutely necessary to spend tons of money to play AAA. My son played on a high level nationally ranked AA team who went to Tier 2 Nationals consecutively and made the Pitt team without ever going the other expensive routes. I’m referencing the recent high level Pitt teams. And, he didn’t sacrifice his high school years billeting out of town and missing the rites of passage like homecoming and prom. No criticizing here—just saying it can be done considering a lot of kids end up being behind a few years from going different routes.

😂😂

So we agree - it was a bad call 😂

Very well said. As an official, even though it was (by rule) a spear, I assess a minor for slashing and explain to TJ coach (and other side if needed) what I was doing. And specificlly tell the "spearer," that he is very lucky.

I'll just say I hope you are right but that's not what I'm seeing the trend being anywhere.

Yes, you’re exactly right…hockey is an entirely different animal. And it has only snowballed into this gigantic enigma that has (I’m guessing) mirrored Canadian U-Sports in terms of taking seasoned 20- year old Junior A players; instead of immediately recruiting 18-year old high school players. Even in this area, a lot the current ACHA schools have evolved from an “idea” of starting a program, to assembling a coaching staff and players in terms of without any recruiting or prior student athlete player knowledge. They would simply form a club team. Then roll the dice on finding already enrolled students that could pose as functional players that can skate and shoot. I remember when Pitt, and even Liberty University basically launched their programs from the ground up. Now, in order to seriously be considered as a player on a top 25 program, you have to pretty much play Junior A; or at least AAA and sit out a year or so. I was talking to an ACHA coach that was at the Pennsylvania Cup trilogy of games 2 years ago in Philadelphia. I remember asking him if he was scouting or actively talking to any players in the games. Surprisingly to me, he said no. He was there as a fan and to support a relative that was playing. He said that very same thing about only scouting Jr A players anymore. I didn’t realize how fast the competition and arms race that this sport has morphed into. It’s crazy to me.

This whole thread seems like it abruptly turned into Western Pennsylvania Youth Hockey’s version of “Grumpy old Men.” Frankly, it reminds me of a multi-generational commiseration of the “back-in-my-day” old farts sipping coffee and telling stories about how they should have listened to their mom & dad and played baseball (or football); instead wasting their childhood years and dreams by playing hockey in Pittsburgh…since, ya know…’nobody from Pittsburgh ever gets noticed, scouted, or goes anywhere.’ I can still picture so many people saying, “Sorry kid, you should have been born further north if you wanna play hockey…yeah, you gotta be from Canada, New England, Michigan, or Minnesota if you want to ever go anywhere in this sport.” It’s weird how there’s never any mention about how quickly this region has progressed from next to nothing as a legitimate hockey region—when discussed by all of the blue-blood and traditional North American hockey markets (i.e. Boston/New England, Buffalo/Western NY, Detroit/Michigan, Minnesota, Toronto/Ontario, Montreal/Quebec, even Western Canada). It’s truly included in those circles now and accepted as such when considering the talent pool of hockey players that come out of Pittsburgh…only not on par with their overall numbers, of course. Put it another way, it appears that Pittsburgh is way past the emerging hockey market problems. You don’t ever hear stories about people complaining about 5:00 AM available ice slots; only having 3-4 ice rinks available within an hour drive; or having generations of parents that never skated or played hockey and having to resort to being self-taught… or receive marginal hockey knowledge and coaching from guys that were only qualified because they were born in Canada or Maine.

Not to completely derail this thread, but the Preds are a joke. You mentioned you “spoke to the coaching staff”. That’s great. They will tell you anything you want to hear to get your tryout money and if your kid sucks up to them enough, or your wife is hot and flirtatious, your kid will make the team. However, he won’t see any playing minutes unless you are ponying up and taking weekly private or small group lessons with the coach. Thats a fact. DM me for more info. I know these guys personally and have for many years. Nothing ever changes. Ask some of the 08-12’s who have left because of those exact reasons. They over promise, under deliver, and over charge you.

I wouldn't call this statement a slam dunk. It certainly should be, but youtube/insta/tiktok along with parents and the love of the highlight play have skewed the concept of team a lot over the last 8-10 years.

Everyone on this thread thinks they know it all and are so f*n smart. Well, Chimp has news for you.....shut the F up! Cheers!