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Is the Esmark 08 coach a clown or is it the whole organization?


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1 hour ago, Saucey said:

People criticize because it drains the talent playing locally and not everyone can afford to pay that or wants to spend all their time traveling when the finish line remains the same.

 It is NOT good for the sport at all to continue to raise the bar for entry. I mean I get it, if you got the change you don't give a flying F about people without. Pretty standard for people with money IMHO. You prevent people with talent from playing. I hear this argument all the time, like draining the talent doesn't somehow affect other families. It does. I know a family with a good kid in a low birth year who has some talent that is poised to exit the sport at his prime playing year because the level of play is just that bad in PAHL and the family is not willing to go play AA under a faux AAA name.

So yeah, people care. I get it you don't.

Then who is at fault?  Players and parents who can and want to do it, the organizations who let the teams chart these courses, tournaments that recruit these teams, skills coaches who work with these players, PAHL, MidAm, or USA Hockey as a governing body.  I guess my point is that you shouldn't be blaming the parents or the players for doing something that is readily available for anyone who wants to do it and has the ability to do it.  So if everyone other than PPE and Vengeance continued to play PAHL "AA", do you not think that the players that are playing what you call "faux AAA" wouldn't all still get together under one or two teams/organizations and do the same thing?  This box has been open and it isn't going to get shut no matter how much people don't like it.  I've long advocated that the best way to possibly combat some of this is better education for parents and players at younger levels as they are entering the game, so they are aware of what the path looks like and what the odds of "making it" truly are.   Until something like that happens, it doesn't make sense to be critical of the choices other people are making as far as it concerns their family and their finances.  

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1 hour ago, Saucey said:

People criticize because it drains the talent playing locally and not everyone can afford to pay that or wants to spend all their time traveling when the finish line remains the same.

 It is NOT good for the sport at all to continue to raise the bar for entry. I mean I get it, if you got the change you don't give a flying F about people without. Pretty standard for people with money IMHO. You prevent people with talent from playing. I hear this argument all the time, like draining the talent doesn't somehow affect other families. It does. I know a family with a good kid in a low birth year who has some talent that is poised to exit the sport at his prime playing year because the level of play is just that bad in PAHL and the family is not willing to go play AA under a faux AAA name.

So yeah, people care. I get it you don't.

That kid must not have a passion for the game!  He might as well get out now and save his family a whole lot of money!  The kids that have the passion will play in PAHL or wherever their family can afford and then play in the beer league for fun when they are 25 to 50 because they love the game.

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3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

That kid must not have a passion for the game!  He might as well get out now and save his family a whole lot of money!  The kids that have the passion will play in PAHL or wherever their family can afford and then play in the beer league for fun when they are 25 to 50 because they love the game.

Or....get out now, save the money, do another sport and....play beer league just like all the other faux AAAs when he turns 18.

Passion for the game? How is fun to not be challenged on the ice? You must be one of those ringer types that lives off going end to end in a beginner skate.

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43 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Or....get out now, save the money, do another sport and....play beer league just like all the other faux AAAs when he turns 18.

Passion for the game? How is fun to not be challenged on the ice? You must be one of those ringer types that lives off going end to end in a beginner skate.

So you are saying that kid can't find anywhere to play? If he had a passion for the game he would find a place to play is what I am saying.  Go research who has the lowest fees for his competition level and play there if money is such a big deal.  Seems like you always make excuses and tear down Hockey in general.  And you are dead wrong.  I don't play, but I encourage mine to play at the highest level his skill will allow!  

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5 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So you are saying that kid can't find anywhere to play? If he had a passion for the game he would find a place to play is what I am saying.  Go research who has the lowest fees for his competition level and play there if money is such a big deal.  Seems like you always make excuses and tear down Hockey in general.  And you are dead wrong.  I don't play, but I encourage mine to play at the highest level his skill will allow!  

He is perfectly fine. And you mean ..I will allow my kid to play the highest level someone will let my kid play, no matter if it is accurate or not, as long as I have money to pay....

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Mine has tried Baseball, Football, Soccer and Dek Hockey. He played, he was competitive but he didnt love it.  He loves and has a passion for Ice Hockey. I will give him every opportunity within his skill level till he ages out or burns out!  I'm hoping he always has a passion for a sport!

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1 minute ago, Saucey said:

He is perfectly fine. And you mean ..I will allow my kid to play the highest level someone will let my kid play, no matter if it is accurate or not, as long as I have money to pay....

What are you talking about!  Don't put words in my mouth!  You have no ide!  Did your kid burnout and you are bitter at the world? Where does your kid play? Does he play at the highest level you can pay for?  

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15 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What are you talking about!  Don't put words in my mouth!  You have no ide!  Did your kid burnout and you are bitter at the world? Where does your kid play? Does he play at the highest level you can pay for?  

My kid? Yes, actually. Burnout? No, quite happy and still playing at the level I am willing to pay for without feeling like a sucker.

Bitter at the Western Pa hockey world? Yes, quite. Continue to criticize it for misleading parents like you and harming overall development of the market, an opinion that I am entitled to both have and express? Yes, please.

You said you don't play, so you really have no point of reference for what I am talking about. People who play AND HAVE PASSION FOR THE GAME understand how not fun it is to play on a sheet with benders when you have some skill, and why a family might choose to exit the game rather than to spend time and money on that. How the ringer who enjoys skating around everyone sucks the life out of the game. Coaches understand how difficult it is to develop players when the level is that uneven on the same team. Ask a parent of girls who play. No matter how much passion you have, it gets old after a while.

I'm out on this thread. You insult me, than get all bent out shape when I poke back. ? No matter what I think or feel, parents (and the carpet baggers behind them) are driving this market. The biggest peddler has yet to even flex. (Blackbear with their AAA league.)

Someone else needs to start talking to the ADM parents, because like you said, I am bitter. But I still suspect that it is waste of breathe. Just keep slapping on that extra A and the lemmings will come.

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We played AA from Bantam on. It was appropriate for his dedication level. He had talent to potentially play higher but not the passion. That’s fine with me. He had a blast. Made great friends. Played two other sports. Went to proms and homecomings etc. Hes going to play either D1 or 2 ACHA depending on his dedication level. I’m fine with either one. AA tended to cost us around 3K in fees. A couple years we played independent and PAHL so more travel was needed but everyone understood that. Some years we did 3-4 tourneys with 1 or 2 in town. Some years we did 6-8 mostly out of town. 
From Bantam to midget we lost about half our kids. Some to whatever AAA. Some to school full time. A few just had enough and focused on other sports. 
Had my son worked harder and wanted some level of AAA I would have supported it. To me hockey was red about an expectation of NHL glory. It was about the time we spent together. That was worth every dollar. He played travel baseball for a while and my daughter played travel softball. I spent a lot of money. The same I would have spent on a nice vacation every year. 
Adults make decisions. I’m glad we do have some intelligent discussions that newer parents can get info from. I often wonder why the bulk of this board is slamming PPE or “faux” AAA but to each their own. 

The fun part is my grandson played his first year of mites this year. I have the experience now. I also laugh at the ridiculous mite parents although my wife reminds me that was us 12 years ago. 
if your kid is playing now then cherish the time and understand they probably aren’t going to play in the NHL. Understand that there are great camps and skills development but also understand that their are people out there who will tell you anything for dollars.  Sit back and get your joy from the joy your kid has. Isn’t that what it means to be a parent? If you are constantly pissed off about coaches/playing time etc. really talk to your kid. Are they really pissed off too? 
Ultimately listen to your kids. Understand what they really want. Fill that need if you can. 
If your kids aren’t playing anymore than relax and offer sage advise. Don’t just say xyz sucks. Tell them why and don’t say it if it sucked for you because of whatever. Give them a little more perspective. 

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3 minutes ago, Novos51 said:

We played AA from Bantam on. It was appropriate for his dedication level. He had talent to potentially play higher but not the passion. That’s fine with me. He had a blast. Made great friends. Played two other sports. Went to proms and homecomings etc. Hes going to play either D1 or 2 ACHA depending on his dedication level. I’m fine with either one. AA tended to cost us around 3K in fees. A couple years we played independent and PAHL so more travel was needed but everyone understood that. Some years we did 3-4 tourneys with 1 or 2 in town. Some years we did 6-8 mostly out of town. 
From Bantam to midget we lost about half our kids. Some to whatever AAA. Some to school full time. A few just had enough and focused on other sports. 
Had my son worked harder and wanted some level of AAA I would have supported it. To me hockey was red about an expectation of NHL glory. It was about the time we spent together. That was worth every dollar. He played travel baseball for a while and my daughter played travel softball. I spent a lot of money. The same I would have spent on a nice vacation every year. 
Adults make decisions. I’m glad we do have some intelligent discussions that newer parents can get info from. I often wonder why the bulk of this board is slamming PPE or “faux” AAA but to each their own. 

The fun part is my grandson played his first year of mites this year. I have the experience now. I also laugh at the ridiculous mite parents although my wife reminds me that was us 12 years ago. 
if your kid is playing now then cherish the time and understand they probably aren’t going to play in the NHL. Understand that there are great camps and skills development but also understand that their are people out there who will tell you anything for dollars.  Sit back and get your joy from the joy your kid has. Isn’t that what it means to be a parent? If you are constantly pissed off about coaches/playing time etc. really talk to your kid. Are they really pissed off too? 
Ultimately listen to your kids. Understand what they really want. Fill that need if you can. 
If your kids aren’t playing anymore than relax and offer sage advise. Don’t just say xyz sucks. Tell them why and don’t say it if it sucked for you because of whatever. Give them a little more perspective. 

Very nice to hear your perspective.  You offered some sage advice!   Thanks

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On 5/21/2022 at 3:39 PM, Novos51 said:

We played AA from Bantam on. It was appropriate for his dedication level. He had talent to potentially play higher but not the passion. That’s fine with me. He had a blast. Made great friends. Played two other sports. Went to proms and homecomings etc. Hes going to play either D1 or 2 ACHA depending on his dedication level. I’m fine with either one. AA tended to cost us around 3K in fees. A couple years we played independent and PAHL so more travel was needed but everyone understood that. Some years we did 3-4 tourneys with 1 or 2 in town. Some years we did 6-8 mostly out of town. 
From Bantam to midget we lost about half our kids. Some to whatever AAA. Some to school full time. A few just had enough and focused on other sports. 
Had my son worked harder and wanted some level of AAA I would have supported it. To me hockey was red about an expectation of NHL glory. It was about the time we spent together. That was worth every dollar. He played travel baseball for a while and my daughter played travel softball. I spent a lot of money. The same I would have spent on a nice vacation every year. 
Adults make decisions. I’m glad we do have some intelligent discussions that newer parents can get info from. I often wonder why the bulk of this board is slamming PPE or “faux” AAA but to each their own. 

The fun part is my grandson played his first year of mites this year. I have the experience now. I also laugh at the ridiculous mite parents although my wife reminds me that was us 12 years ago. 
if your kid is playing now then cherish the time and understand they probably aren’t going to play in the NHL. Understand that there are great camps and skills development but also understand that their are people out there who will tell you anything for dollars.  Sit back and get your joy from the joy your kid has. Isn’t that what it means to be a parent? If you are constantly pissed off about coaches/playing time etc. really talk to your kid. Are they really pissed off too? 
Ultimately listen to your kids. Understand what they really want. Fill that need if you can. 
If your kids aren’t playing anymore than relax and offer sage advise. Don’t just say xyz sucks. Tell them why and don’t say it if it sucked for you because of whatever. Give them a little more perspective. 

This is the best comment on this entire thread...  the term perspective was used and that is 100% on point.  Some stuff isn't for everyone, and the player should dictate where they are playing and at what level.  Then the ability for a family to allow that to happen comes into play.  Let the player "drive the bus" and then use that to help shape the decisions being made based off of an individual situation. 

My son has aged out, but but started at a smaller organization and was very often the best player on the ice even when skating with kids 2 years older than him, we then made the decision to decline an offer from PPE and play PAHL AA for a few seasons at a larger organization and then he ultimately did move on and play on a few different AAA teams before he aged out.  Had chances to play junior at different levels, but we were lucky that he was a good student and he decided to just focus on school after graduation.  Very happy with the path he took and the friends both him and our family made through the journey.  The cost, which was significant, was more than worth it when you consider the experiences, friends, and other connections all of us were lucky enough to make through hockey.

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5 hours ago, Corsi said:

This is the best comment on this entire thread...  the term perspective was used and that is 100% on point.  Some stuff isn't for everyone, and the player should dictate where they are playing and at what level.  Then the ability for a family to allow that to happen comes into play.  Let the player "drive the bus" and then use that to help shape the decisions being made based off of an individual situation. 

My son has aged out, but but started at a smaller organization and was very often the best player on the ice even when skating with kids 2 years older than him, we then made the decision to decline an offer from PPE and play PAHL AA for a few seasons at a larger organization and then he ultimately did move on and play on a few different AAA teams before he aged out.  Had chances to play junior at different levels, but we were lucky that he was a good student and he decided to just focus on school after graduation.  Very happy with the path he took and the friends both him and our family made through the journey.  The cost, which was significant, was more than worth it when you consider the experiences, friends, and other connections all of us were lucky enough to make through hockey.

Thanks for your response.  Your input and perspective are appreciated.  

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:08 AM, Corsi said:

This is the best comment on this entire thread...  the term perspective was used and that is 100% on point.  Some stuff isn't for everyone, and the player should dictate where they are playing and at what level.  Then the ability for a family to allow that to happen comes into play.  Let the player "drive the bus" and then use that to help shape the decisions being made based off of an individual situation. 

My son has aged out, but but started at a smaller organization and was very often the best player on the ice even when skating with kids 2 years older than him, we then made the decision to decline an offer from PPE and play PAHL AA for a few seasons at a larger organization and then he ultimately did move on and play on a few different AAA teams before he aged out.  Had chances to play junior at different levels, but we were lucky that he was a good student and he decided to just focus on school after graduation.  Very happy with the path he took and the friends both him and our family made through the journey.  The cost, which was significant, was more than worth it when you consider the experiences, friends, and other connections all of us were lucky enough to make through hockey.

This is a good reminder to all that a player doesn’t have to be on a AAA team from day one to be able to play AAA etc. There’s a lot of FOMO that if someone isn’t there by 12u it’s going to be all over for them. Not the case. 

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The younger developing players often struggle to maintain their early advantages, especially players who have that early growth spurt and end up relying on size more than anything.

And is has to suck to be the main man at 12U and by 16U be playing "gasp" lowly PAHL hockey. ?

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18 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

The younger developing players often struggle to maintain their early advantages, especially players who have that early growth spurt and end up relying on size more than anything.

And is has to suck to be the main man at 12U and by 16U be playing "gasp" lowly PAHL hockey. ?

Oh yeah. Those players typically come with the worst attitudes if they haven't gone to another team that attached the extra 'A'.

 

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On 5/27/2022 at 2:11 PM, sadday4hockey said:

The younger developing players often struggle to maintain their early advantages, especially players who have that early growth spurt and end up relying on size more than anything.

And is has to suck to be the main man at 12U and by 16U be playing "gasp" lowly PAHL hockey. ?

This is true, both in my experience and according to the experts. The best players at 10U and 12U are typically not the best players at 16U. It's not universal but it's a well-known phenomenon.

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16 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

This is true, both in my experience and according to the experts. The best players at 10U and 12U are typically not the best players at 16U. It's not universal but it's a well-known phenomenon.

It's because their idiot coaches want to win so badly at that level. I've seen great U-10 players skate through entire teams. Then 4 years later when talent catches up, the same kid has his head down, can't make a pass and has a lousy shot because he had so many breakaways and only works on his slap shot. The 12U kids are the same although some benefit from size and when others catch up physically they are only a one trick pony,

But instead of coaches breaking bad habits/teaching hockey the right way. They enjoy winning games. I hope they are impressing people in bars with their U10 and U12 records.

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11 minutes ago, Denis Lemiuex said:

It's because their idiot coaches want to win so badly at that level. I've seen great U-10 players skate through entire teams. Then 4 years later when talent catches up, the same kid has his head down, can't make a pass and has a lousy shot because he had so many breakaways and only works on his slap shot. The 12U kids are the same although some benefit from size and when others catch up physically they are only a one trick pony,

But instead of coaches breaking bad habits/teaching hockey the right way. They enjoy winning games. I hope they are impressing people in bars with their U10 and U12 records.

I'd say it's more based on the players work ethic. Many top end players at 10U learn at a young age that they don't have to work hard to be the best. The kids who struggle through the early stages of hockey learn how much the hard work pays off.

Obviously this isn't always the case as there are good young players who work very hard, but it's certainly easier for them to just go through the motions.

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On 5/30/2022 at 10:10 AM, Icebucket said:

I'd say it's more based on the players work ethic. Many top end players at 10U learn at a young age that they don't have to work hard to be the best. The kids who struggle through the early stages of hockey learn how much the hard work pays off.

Obviously this isn't always the case as there are good young players who work very hard, but it's certainly easier for them to just go through the motions.

The willingness to put in the work and to also have coaches that can balance the development with being successful is key.  Having a coach that both values winning games, but also developing kids that "play the right way" is what we found worked best for my son.  He was pushed by his coaches and his parents to always be a "team player" but, because he has always had a very competitive personality he valued the idea of winning and losing.  I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that there weren't conversations about only worrying about the things that he could control and that there wasn't anything he could do but play his best all the time, regardless of what the other kids were doing (or not doing).  I believe this helped in his development, along with not pushing him to play "AAA" at an extremely early age.  He wanted to from a very young age and my wife and I made the decision to do what we felt was going to be best for him as he grew and matured as a player and as a person.  

I played from the time I was 4/5 years old, and I agree with the prior messages about the best players at 10-12 aren't the best players at 15 or 16.  I believe most of that is the "too much, too soon" part of it.  I never wanted to see my son "burnout" because we did too much when he was in 6th and 7th grade.

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Posted (edited)

Looking only at my one son's birth year, the kid who was best player entering squirts is still now the best player in midgets.  Frankly, most of the kids who made the PPE gold team out of squirts are still very good players.  Some are still at PPE, some at Esmark and some at Vengeance.  It is really hard for an unathletic 9 year old to make the PPE Gold team.  For the most part, it is the kids who were on the black team that have become PAHL players.   

I don't think you realize just how many of the younger AAA kids are actually doing the work.  Maybe some AA kids don't do anything extra but most of the AAA kids are definitely doing something extra.  Walk into any rink and you will be amazed how many AAA kids are doing lessons.  Sometimes, a couple of times a week.  If the younger kids drop to AA from AAA it usually isn't because they don't have a work ethic.  

Edited by twoboys
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On 6/1/2022 at 1:55 PM, twoboys said:

Looking only at my one son's birth year, the kid who was best player entering squirts is still now the best player in midgets.  Frankly, most of the kids who made the PPE gold team out of squirts are still very good players.  Some are still at PPE, some at Esmark and some at Vengeance.  It is really hard for an unathletic 9 year old to make the PPE Gold team.  For the most part, it is the kids who were on the black team that have become PAHL players.   

I don't think you realize just how many of the younger AAA kids are actually doing the work.  Maybe some AA kids don't do anything extra but most of the AAA kids are definitely doing something extra.  Walk into any rink and you will be amazed how many AAA kids are doing lessons.  Sometimes, a couple of times a week.  If the younger kids drop to AA from AAA it usually isn't because they don't have a work ethic.  

The extra work is automatic when you are playing at the AAA level.  The separation point though are the kids that put in the extra work on their own vs. the kids that put in the extra work only when it is a "team" type of event (off ice training, etc).  I think what really helps with kids between the ages of 10-13 is to have coaches give individual feedback to the players and their parents so they know what they need work on to get better.  I've seen all kinds of kids through the years that were "the best at... insert skating, shooting, etc" but because they were the best stopped working on that specific skill.  Kids need to focus on the weaknesses in their games, but not to the detriment of improving their entire game when doing the extra stuff.  

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On 5/18/2022 at 11:22 AM, hockey2020 said:

do you realize how much esmark travels - to places requiring flight and rental car. way way more than PPE. the 18’s went so much this past season and usually to play low level teams. i don’t get it. 

14U to 18U Esmark teams, plan on spending easily over $20,000/yr.  And true, they will almost never play a top 20 ranked team.  If they do, they will lose significantly.  Just look at the previous years in My Hockey. 

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Its all in what you and most importantly what your son wants , my son had a offer from a top 5 team and two top 25 this offseason. Because of the recent coaching hire at 15u , he decided to stay. I believe if he played for any other Pittsburgh team aside from the Pens he doesn’t get the exposure and offers.

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